Extraterrestrials - Here/Real or not? - General

[QUOTE=King Tiger;36723760]Fine by me. If you "don't want to bother" with logic and reasoning anymore, I won't stand in your way.[/QUOTE] "We haven't found solid proof yet, therefore we never will" is not logic and reasoning. It is ignorance and laziness. Until you back up your claims with sources and tangible evidence, the answer is and will remain "we don't know".

[QUOTE=Xenomoose;36725459]"We haven't found solid proof yet, therefore we never will" is not logic and reasoning. It is ignorance and laziness. Until you back up your claims with sources and tangible evidence, the answer is and will remain "we don't know".[/QUOTE] I have claimed nothing. If it appears that I have made a claim, I recant it and I say only this: the burden of proof is on the claimant. If you believe aliens exist, then you need to provide the proof. Until then, there is no reason to believe in their existence.

There are claims that nasa erased thousands of pictures that they took when they put a man on the moon, there are some preserved and clearly shows that there are other beings out there, even on the moon.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;36726297]I have claimed nothing. If it appears that I have made a claim, I recant it and I say only this: the burden of proof is on the claimant. If you believe aliens exist, then you need to provide the proof. Until then, there is no reason to believe in their existence.[/QUOTE] It goes the other way, too. There is no proof that aliens do not exist, so there is no reason to believe they do not. That's what I'm trying to say. There is no reason to believe anything because we do not know. Until every planet in the universe has been documented and verified, [I]nothing[/I] is a definite.

[QUOTE=Xenomoose;36728334]It goes the other way, too. There is no proof that aliens do not exist, so there is no reason to believe they do not. That's what I'm trying to say. There is no reason to believe anything because we do not know. Until every planet in the universe has been documented and verified, [I]nothing[/I] is a definite.[/QUOTE] That is not how science works! You can never prove negatives or actually "disprove" things.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;36729291]That is not how science works! You can never prove negatives or actually "disprove" things.[/QUOTE] If that's not how science works, why are scientists still looking for extraterrestrial life using satellites and SETI and all that jazz? If science says "if there is no proof of aliens now, there never will be proof", we wouldn't still be spending money trying to search for them. Explain that. EDIT: Besides, if science says you can't prove a negative, that doesn't exactly mean that "aliens don't exist and never will". It really only means "As far as we know [I]right now[/I], they don't exist". There is a massive difference between the two that I don't think YOU understand.

[QUOTE=Xenomoose;36730136]If that's not how science works, why are scientists still looking for extraterrestrial life using satellites and SETI and all that jazz? If science says "if there is no proof of aliens now, there never will be proof", we wouldn't still be spending money trying to search for them. Explain that. EDIT: Besides, if science says you can't prove a negative, that doesn't exactly mean that "aliens don't exist and never will". It really only means "As far as we know [I]right now[/I], they don't exist". There is a massive difference between the two that I don't think YOU understand.[/QUOTE] The only reason I brought that up is because you said "there is no proof that aliens do not exist".

[QUOTE=King Tiger;36730930]The only reason I brought that up is because you said "there is no proof that aliens do not exist".[/QUOTE] Still, the only way the term "Aliens do not exist" can be taken as a fact is if you add "As far as we know" to the beginning of that. There are still many studies and things being conducted in space trying to prove that wrong, and it's likely that tangible results are decades, if not centuries away (and that's only if aliens really do exist). As long as the search continues, I refuse to flat-out say that they do not exist. That's all I can say.

[QUOTE=Xenomoose;36731210]Still, the only way the term "Aliens do not exist" can be taken as a fact is if you add "As far as we know" to the beginning of that. There are still many studies and things being conducted in space trying to prove that wrong, and it's likely that tangible results are decades, if not centuries away (and that's only if aliens really do exist). As long as the search continues, I refuse to flat-out say that they do not exist. That's all I can say.[/QUOTE] Oh course. You have to measure everything "as far as we know". As far as we know, there are no fire breathing dragons in the world. As far as we know, humans breathe oxygen. As far as we know, the world is not flat.

they r real i swhere i saw 1 last yesterday [highlight](User was banned for this post ("This is NOT how you debate" - Craptasket))[/highlight]

There real without a doubt but the real question is how advanced are they and have they been here?

[QUOTE=Killer monkey;36742802]There real without a doubt but the real question is how advanced are they and have they been here?[/QUOTE] The green space elephants are real without a doubt the only question is how long are their tusks?

I have no reason to believe that a sentient being of an origin hundreds of light years away came to visited our planet when our current understanding of the governing rules of reality deem such an event as impossible. While our knowledge of the universe around us is limited at best, I don't see point in believing in something that lacks even any moderately sound evidence. Even believing in such a thing based on pure blind faith lacks any meaning. The thought of aliens visiting Earth certainly won't make me see the world in some different sort of light.

[QUOTE=Luxo;36743681]I have no reason to believe that a sentient being of an origin hundreds of light years away came to visited our planet when [b]our current understanding of the governing rules of reality deem such an event as impossible.[/B] While our knowledge of the universe around us is limited at best, I don't see point in believing in something that lacks even any moderately sound evidence. Even believing in such a thing based on pure blind faith lacks any meaning. The thought of aliens visiting Earth certainly won't make me see the world in some different sort of light.[/QUOTE] psst, no it doesn't

[QUOTE=Luxo;36743681]The thought of aliens visiting Earth certainly won't make me see the world in some different sort of light.[/QUOTE] Even if they had a vast amount of, very likely, mind-boggling knowledge to share with us on the workings of the Universe?

[QUOTE=Danm;36747791]Even if they had a vast amount of, very likely, mind-boggling knowledge to share with us on the workings of the Universe?[/QUOTE] That's not what he's talking about. He's talking about there being secretive aliens who abduct people in the night and are covered up by the government. At least, that's what I think he's talking about.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;36743477]The green space elephants are real without a doubt the only question is how long are their tusks?[/QUOTE] Ugh... You [I]do[/I] realize that Aliens aren't some metaphysical entity that can only exist if you believe it does, like God or any other deity, right? Because arguments where you pull shit out of your ass and say "that's just as likely" don't really apply to any sort of discussion except those. You see, there's this thing called "Plausibility" that scientists like to use when they have reason to believe something is possible but lack conclusive evidence. But then again, since you apparently know how science works you would have known that already, but let's go through with a few facts. FACT # 1: Scientists have found planets that have the potential to carry life. ([URL="http://planet.iap.fr/OB05390.news.html"]Source[/URL] [URL="http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/070424_hab_exoplanet.html"]Source[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_life#Extrasolar_planets"]Additional Wiki Reading[/URL]) FACT # 2: Scientists have discovered that cosmic dust contains organic matter created from stars, one scientist stating that these compounds may have been related to the development of life on earth as they can serve as "the basic ingredients for life" (which helps the credibility of the Pansperma theory that states that life was seeded onto Earth from space, and if that is true, that means life did not originate on earth, meaning that there is life out there in space) ([URL="http://www.space.com/13401-cosmic-star-dust-complex-organic-compounds.html"]source[/URL] [URL="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111026143721.htm"]source[/URL] [URL="http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2011Natur.479...80K"]source[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_life#Direct_search"]Additional Wiki Reading[/URL]) FACT # 3: NASA Scientists have conducted studies of meteorites found on earth that suggest that some DNA and RNA components may have been formed in outer space ([URL="http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/08/10/1106493108"]Source[/URL] [URL="http://www.nasa.gov/topics/solarsystem/features/dna-meteorites.html"]Source[/URL] [URL="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110808220659.htm"]Source[/URL] (additional wiki reading is the same link as fact #2) FACT # 4: The universe is fucking huge. There are so many planets in the [I]known[/I] universe that it would take hundreds of pages to fill in all the digits of the exact number at a 12pt Times New Roman font. The chances that aliens do NOT exists on any of them are pretty much *Number of planets that aren't Earth* To *Number of planets that are Earth, which would be one*. Even if you excluded the very few planets that we've actually explored and found no life one, it still takes some serious balls to assume that none of the others have any chance of bearing life. And again, that's just the known universe. Since we don't even know how many planets there are in the universe, that ratio can be simplified to Infinite:1 until an accurate measurement can be taken (fat chance). (Source not cited, because this is just plain logic) FACT # 5: The White House's response to the petition to disclose any information on Alien life included the statement that while the government is not covering up anything, the odds are "pretty high" that there may be life on other planets (while also stating that the chances of us contacting them are pretty small, if only because of the distances involved). ([URL="https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#%21/response/searching-et-no-evidence-yet"]Source[/URL] [URL="http://www.universetoday.com/90717/no-alien-visits-or-ufo-coverups-white-house-says/"]Source[/URL]) All in all, while there is no [I]conclusive[/I] evidence, there is more than enough to pull Aliens from the "fairy tales and unicorns" realm of possibility into the "actually fucking plausible" territory. Your green elephants or the invisible purple one you said was floating above new york a few pages back? No evidence there. That's just shit you pulled out of your ass. For additional reading, look up the Wikipedia articles for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_life"]Extraterrestrial Life[/URL] and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrobiology"]Astrobiology[/URL], and note how the first article states "Many scientists consider extraterrestrial life to be [I]plausible[/I], but there is no [I]conclusive[/I] evidence of the existence of extraterrestrial life." You said the burden of proof is on the claimant. I have withstood the burden of bringing proof. I want you to look at that and if you can still say "there is no reason the believe aliens exist", you're either being intentionally foolish or you were just born that way. Either way, I'm done here. *mic drop*

[QUOTE=Block;36704935]Nope, you explain.[/QUOTE] It seems you do not have the ability to google things yourself let me help with that, [url]http://bit.ly/rya7BC[/url] [editline]13th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=King Tiger;36743477]The green space elephants are real without a doubt the only question is how long are their tusks?[/QUOTE] I... Don't get what you're trying to say.

[QUOTE=oclictis1;36757987]It seems you do not have the ability to google things yourself let me help with that, [url]http://bit.ly/rya7BC[/url][/QUOTE] Don't be an ass. I know about dark matter. I study physics in a university. I just want to know why you think it has something to do with the universe being infinite or not. [QUOTE=oclictis1;36704630]Want to know if the universe is infinite? "Dark matter", google it.[/QUOTE] So go ahead and explain, yourself. I'm not going to read every single article about dark matter just in case there happens to be something relevant.

Real but not here. Think about it, we all know that for a planet to form characteristics similar to that of Earth's would be ridiculously rare, but not so rare that we'd be the only ones in the universe. Hell, I'd even say that there could be aliens in our spiral arm of the galaxy!

I believe in other lifeforms outside of the earth, and I also believe intelligent lifeforms have existed throughout the ages and exist today. It's nothing really remarkable to me, it's a thought that has been with me since I was a kid. What I don't agree with however, is that there is some alien species that is truly wise, and honest, and such a race could find us and "lead the way". Who are we to say? I believe if we were to encounter an alien species in the future I don't think they would be all perfect morally. Nobody is perfect. In fact, I would hate it if they were. I would find more comfort if this supposed species was just as violent, ignorant, dishonest, and imperfect as we are.

[QUOTE=Block;36763618]Don't be an ass. I know about dark matter. I study physics in a university. I just want to know why you think it has something to do with the universe being infinite or not [/QUOTE] so let me get this straight, you have studied physics in a university and don't understand hownit accounts for most of the matter in the universe and creates more of it?

[QUOTE=oclictis1;36822552]so let me get this straight, you have studied physics in a university and don't understand hownit accounts for most of the matter in the universe and creates more of it?[/QUOTE] What? You're not really making any sense nor answering my questions. Yes dark matter makes up most of the matter of the universe. It's a type of matter we have a hard time observing and nobody's really sure of what it is exactly. Are you saying it creates more matter? Or more universe (assuming that you mean space)? You still haven't explained how dark matter means the universe is infinite.

[QUOTE=Block;36823080]What? You're not really making any sense nor answering my questions. Yes dark matter makes up most of the matter of the universe. It's a type of matter we have a hard time observing and nobody's really sure of what it is exactly. Are you saying it creates more matter? Or more universe (assuming that you mean space)? You still haven't explained how dark matter means the universe is infinite.[/QUOTE] 1) Dark matter takes up a lot of space in the universe 2) It is expanding, it has always been expanding since the "Big bang", it is always making the universe bigger, thus meaning it is infinite. How hard is that to understand.

[QUOTE=oclictis1;36824298]1) Dark matter takes up a lot of space in the universe 2) It is expanding, it has always been expanding since the "Big bang", it is always making the universe bigger, thus meaning it is infinite. How hard is that to understand.[/QUOTE] 1) Dark matter reacts very very weakly, if at all, with normal matter. That's why it's called dark. There could be dark matter right here as well since it doesn't react with anything. It'll just pass through invisibly. I don't know what you mean by "dark matter takes up a lot of space" and what that has got to do with anything but it doesn't really take up space from normal matter. Maybe. It's all hypothetical. 2) Expanding things don't have to be infinite. They could be but they don't have to. Check this: [url]http://www.nasa.gov/audience/foreducators/5-8/features/F_How_Big_is_Our_Universe.html[/url] [quote]So how big is the universe? [B]No one knows if the universe is infinitely large[/B], or even if ours is the only universe that exists. And other parts of the universe, very far away, might be quite different from the universe closer to home. Future NASA missions will continue to search for clues to the ultimate size and scale of our cosmic home. [/quote] Here's another link: [url]http://www4.ncsu.edu/unity/lockers/users/f/felder/public/kenny/papers/cosmo.html[/url] [quote]People have wondered for millennia whether the universe is limited in size or goes on forever. Fortunately we now have modern science to step in and supply us with the answer, which is that [B]we don't know.[/B][/quote] Claiming that the universe is infinite because "dark matter, google it" just seems silly.

[QUOTE=Block;36824591]1)2) Expanding things don't have to be infinite. They could be but they don't have to. Claiming that the universe is infinite because "dark matter, google it" just seems silly.[/QUOTE] So basically, you're telling me is "Unless I see 100% proof, it's pretty much impossible/non existent". Why are you so reluctant to fathom that the universe is infinite? Also, the thing about "Dark matter not reacting well (if at all) with matter" wasnt really relavent.

[QUOTE=oclictis1;36833206]So basically, you're telling me is "Unless I see 100% proof, it's pretty much impossible/non existent". Why are you so reluctant to fathom that the universe is infinite?[/QUOTE] No. I'm saying we don't know. Not claiming it's impossible. [QUOTE=oclictis1;36833206]Also, the thing about "Dark matter not reacting well (if at all) with matter" wasnt really relavent.[/QUOTE] Neither was dark matter to begin with but you brought it up. Just trying to follow your logic here.

i think it's extremely likely that extraterrestrial life exists somewhere - considering the size of our universe it seems unlikely to me that we would be on the only planet that supports life. however, i think the idea that extraterrestrials have made contact with us is absurd. if an extraterrestrial species had the technology to travel to our solar system and contact us, it would likely be far more interested in what resources our planet has to offer than the primitive technology we have. it would be more likely to use us as test subjects and study our planet's biology than to try and make peace with the comparative intellectual equivalent of a neanderthal civilization. we would be of no use to them.

[QUOTE=Block;36835416]No. I'm saying we don't know. Not claiming it's impossible.[/QUOTE] What I've learned from this thread is that most people have a really hard time to grasp the concept of not knowing something... This is exactly why religions started in the first place. Why can't we just leave it at we don't know? What is so wrong with that?

[QUOTE=Robbi;36837692]What I've learned from this thread is that most people have a really hard time to grasp the concept of not knowing something... This is exactly why religions started in the first place. Why can't we just leave it at we don't know? What is so wrong with that?[/QUOTE] You've got it backwards, actually. Religion started from people like you, who accept things without proof.