[QUOTE=Andre Gomes;47797359]I don't get the incest issue, If he wants to butt-fuck his brother and the brother wants that too, what is wrong with that?[/QUOTE]
Given the cropped furry porn avatar, you should understand that there is an inherent and very obvious problem with incest, is that it's effectively much like rape or work harassment and should be treated as such.
Also if children are raised normally together, they should not experience sexual attraction to one another. If they do, then something has gone wrong.
[editline]25th May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=DrTaxi;47797395]As in, "incest disgusts me so I don't want it to be acceptable?" Or am I misinterpreting you here?[/quote]
It's disgusting because it allows for disgusting practices to take place, which I am going to elaborate on.
[quote]Now there's a slippery slope if I've ever seen one. Literally the same one homophobes use, even.[/QUOTE]
Except it isn't. And don't imply I'm a homophobe either.
When it comes to incest, it's entirely differently. The point about it being discouraged is because family members should not be having sex with one another. When you factor in age (older/younger siblings or children/parents), all too often incestuous relationships involve abuse. Accepting incest means to accept older family members taking advantage of younger ones.
With homosexuals, it's entirely different, because it's two consenting adults. But it is rarely the case that in families people can or will consent. The default state is that they don't (and shouldn't) have sexual attraction. If they do, something has gone very wrong, and families which have that sex dynamic tend to be extremely dysfunctional at best.
This threads theme music is akin to a Chaplin comedy loop
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;47797351]To see the normalization of incest as progress is something abhorrent to the senses, that in turn can skim dangerously close to pedophilia, abuse, and taking advantage of people.[/QUOTE]
We're at the stage where there's legitimate activism to have empathy towards Pedophilia as if it's a sexual preference comparable to homosexuality. Getting close to it.
[QUOTE=Nikota;47797476]We're at the stage where there's legitimate activism to have empathy towards Pedophilia. Getting close to it.[/QUOTE]
If only someone had warned us...
[QUOTE=AaronM202;47797414]Im sorry, but, like.
I cant even come up with a proper response to this, like, dude, you're trying to justify incest.
Its not even that i cant word whats wrong with it... Its just that i cant fathom why you're trying to justify [i]incest[/i].[/QUOTE]
If you can't word why it's wrong than there's no reason it shouldn't be right.
Checkmate.
[QUOTE=Nikota;47797476]We're at the stage where there's legitimate activism to have empathy towards Pedophilia as if it's a sexual preference comparable to homosexuality. Getting close to it.[/QUOTE]
Mainstream media and society is extremely far from accepting pedophilia
people are simply less severely ignorant than in the 40's and thus less psycho and hostile
ironically in the 40's homosexuality was treated as badly as pedophilia about.
[QUOTE=Nikota;47797476]We're at the stage where there's legitimate activism to have empathy towards Pedophilia as if it's a sexual preference comparable to homosexuality. Getting close to it.[/QUOTE]
what's the problem with this? it's not like people are saying to abolish punishments for acting on pedophilia, but to allow people suffering from those urges the means to safely get help before they can't help themselves. why not do the same with incestuous feelings?
[QUOTE=Nikota;47797476]We're at the stage where there's legitimate activism to have empathy towards Pedophilia. Getting close to it.[/QUOTE]
nambla tried it in the 60s when gay lib started to get off the ground .. the public weren't ready for that level of degeneracy yet so they were wisely jettisoned
there's editorials and think-pieces every few months in major newspapers where some psychologist will do the "they're really just mentally ill individuals who would fap to loli and not hurt anyone if the stigma wasn't there, pls feel sorry for them" elevator pitch, im guessing partly to gauge public opinion .. the comments-section outrage gets less and less intense each year so the kulturkampf is working
the intersectional ideological apparatus is there already. it's the kind of thing that grows in potency with every victory, since they can use each new one as a precedent .. more ammunition to equivocate and pivot with. they can probably argue something like the concept of informed-consent being ageist. some kind of edge-case with an unusually-mature 15 year old in a relationship with a guy who's only /just/ old enough for it to be a little creepy - something like that will get their foot in the door.
the technique is always to find an edge case where there isn't any direct harm being done, then, make a generalized argument that assumes that the fortunate conditions in that case always hold, then, unleash it on every case, no matter how degenerate.
basically what we're seeing is a memetic virus that has figured out how to turn a once-healthy societal immune response against itself
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;47797500]If only someone had warned us...[/QUOTE]
Goddamn it was funny a couple months back when the courts were all passing through gay marriage in the US. I'm for gay marriage and the extension of equality under the law, it was one of Clintons big fuck ups to pass all that anti-gay laws that he did during the 90s.
However near immediately afterwards that the Judges dismissed the marriage bans, there was a call for looking into Poly marriage, like almost right fucking away after there was several states on the chopping board. You have to justify the existence now for all these fucking activists and that's lead to the slippery slope to be a legitimate thing and not just a bogeymen.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;47797522]the ideological apparatus is there already. they can probably argue something like the concept of informed-consent being ageist. some kind of edge-case with an unusually-mature 15 year old in a relationship with a [b]guy who's only /just/ old enough for it to be a little creepy - something like that will get their foot in the door.[/b]
the technique is always to find an edge case where there isn't any direct harm being done, then, make a generalized argument that assumes that the fortunate conditions in that case always hold, then, unleash it on every case, no matter how degenerate.[/QUOTE]
I was getting a shitton of vibes towards some shit like that when there was the Stephen Fry thing a while ago.
[IMG]http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article9961006.ece/alternates/w620/Stephen-Fry-Elliott-Rex.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;47797419]Given the cropped furry porn avatar, you should understand that there is an inherent and very obvious problem with incest, is that it's effectively much like rape or work harassment and should be treated as such.
Also if children are raised normally together, they should not experience sexual attraction to one another. If they do, then something has gone wrong.[/QUOTE]
I get what the society thinks about it, but common, they have been together for ages as a couple and they din't know, they love each other and they love to be together, how can the society just throw at their faces they can't be happy the way they want to just because of a taboo?
if i love my brother and he loved me i would't give a flying fuck about society
[QUOTE=Andre Gomes;47797527]I get what the society thinks about it, but common, they have been together for ages as a couple and they din't know, they love each other and they love to be together, how can the society just throw at their faces they can't be happy the way they want to just because of a taboo?
if i love my brother and he loved me i would't give a flying fuck about society[/QUOTE]
chesterton wept
[QUOTE=Nikota;47797523]However near immediately afterwards that the Judges dismissed the marriage bans, there was a call for looking into Poly marriage, like almost right fucking away after there was several states on the chopping board. You have to justify the existence now for all these fucking activists and that's lead to the slippery slope to be a legitimate thing and not just a bogeymen.[/QUOTE]
It's something that's been going on since Anthony Comstock's days, activists have consistently broken their promises on how far this sexual revolution will go.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;47797561]It's something that's been going since Anthony Comstock's days, activists have consistently broken their promises on how far this sexual revolution will go.[/QUOTE]
You can't half-ass a revolution, either go all the way or none at all.
As Ricky Bobby once said, if you ain't first you're last.
[QUOTE=Nikota;47797523]I was getting a shitton of vibes towards some shit like that when there was the Stephen Fry thing a while ago.
[IMG]http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article9961006.ece/alternates/w620/Stephen-Fry-Elliott-Rex.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
yeah i don't know how anyone can look at fry(y)'s crumple-zone rape face and his catamite's thousand-yard stare and think YES THIS IS A COMPLETELY HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP
[QUOTE=Andre Gomes;47797527]I get what the society thinks about it, but common, they have been together for ages as a couple and they din't know, they love each other and they love to be together, how can the society just throw at their faces they can't be happy the way they want to just because of a taboo?
if i love my brother and he loved me i would't give a flying fuck about society[/QUOTE]
The problem is that a precedent shouldn't be set for this. Obviously this is a rare example, but in no way should incest be seen as something normal or even desirable. Outside of two people later discovering that they are related, most incestuous relationships are extremely unhealthy and often involve a form of abuse. This includes rape and mental illnesses.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;47797404]i love how we as a society have managed to solve 2500 years of moral philosophy by condensing all ethical arguments into "i thought about it for 5 seconds and i can't think of anything bad that will immediately happen"
did I say love i meant terrified[/QUOTE]
So what changes do you expect to see?
The ones I imagine just go back to disrupting conservative values of group cohesion/uniformity and population growth.
You seem to appreciate those, I don't.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;47797414]Im sorry, but, like.
I cant even come up with a proper response to this, like, dude, you're trying to justify incest.
Its not even that i cant word whats wrong with it... Its just that i cant fathom why you're trying to justify [i]incest[/i].[/QUOTE]
As for why I'm doing that: It's because the stigma is obviously hurting people. Or do you think those tears in OP's video were just for show?
Justifying incest goes against core beliefs, of course. I realise this is why you cannot fathom someone trying to do it.
But throughout history, a great many of those core beliefs have been overturned. A monarchist in the middle ages would have had the same reaction as you are having right now to someone proposing democracy. Or, to stick with my earlier example: If you had been born 100 years ago, you most likely would've had the same reaction to someone justifying homosexuality.
Please consider that so many positive changes in history would've never happened if some "untouchable" values really hadn't been touched.
You might still not like incest, but please don't let "I can't even" be the reason.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;47797419]Except it isn't. And don't imply I'm a homophobe either.
When it comes to incest, it's entirely differently. The point about it being discouraged is because family members should not be having sex with one another. When you factor in age (older/younger siblings or children/parents), all too often incestuous relationships involve abuse. Accepting incest means to accept older family members taking advantage of younger ones.
With homosexuals, it's entirely different, because it's two consenting adults. But it is rarely the case that in families people can or will consent. The default state is that they don't (and shouldn't) have sexual attraction. If they do, something has gone very wrong, and families which have that sex dynamic tend to be extremely dysfunctional at best.[/QUOTE]
It wasn't my intention to imply you're a homophobe. I was saying you were arguing like one.
It remains that incestuous relationships that wouldn't be objectionable if not for the one little factoid that the people in it happen to be related can and do exist, whether they're the exception or the rule. Are incestuous feelings a mental abnormality? Certainly. But to be a mental illness, they need to cause harm.
And I'm saying that we should treat those incestuous relationships based on informed consent, that don't cause harm, like any other. No matter whether that's 99% or 1%. And doing otherwise is stereotyping, whether you support it or not.
Taxi, are you by chance attracted to other members of your family.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;47797577]yeah i don't know how anyone can look at fry(y)'s crumple-zone rape face and his catamite's thousand-yard stare and think YES THIS IS A COMPLETELY HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP[/QUOTE]
Nice job deducing their mental state and the healthieness of their relationship from a photo. Maybe for your next trick you tell us what their skull meseruments say about their personality.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;47797646]Taxi, are you by chance attracted to other members of your family.[/QUOTE]
No, but feel free to imagine I was and the feeling's mutual.
Do you see how your disrespect would be hurting me?
And what justification would you have for doing that? I wouldn't be hurting you or anyone else. So why would I deserve the treatment society gives to incest couples?
Incest is nasty shit
ok maybe it isn't my place to say idk but if you think incest babies are ok you're p. fucked in the head
not directed to anyone specific at all, idk if anyones even justifying that here but just sayin'
[QUOTE=DrTaxi;47797632]It remains that incestuous relationships that wouldn't be objectionable if not for the one little factoid that the people in it happen to be related can and do exist, whether they're the exception or the rule. Are incestuous feelings a mental abnormality? Certainly. But to be a mental illness, they need to cause harm.[/quote]
They do cause harm. Incestuous relationships almost always manifest themselves in the form of parents abusing their children, or siblings abusing one another. Rape is common among incestuous families, along with other kinds of physical and mental abuse.
That is why I am opposed to them. It is disgusting because disgusting things are done during them.
[quote]And I'm saying that we should treat those incestuous relationships based on informed consent, that don't cause harm, like any other. No matter whether that's 99% or 1%. And doing otherwise is stereotyping, whether you support it or not.[/QUOTE]
Except most of the time there is no consent. Very rarely is there an incestuous relationship where one partner is not abusing the other.
[QUOTE=DrTaxi;47797680]No, but feel free to imagine I was and the feeling's mutual.
Do you see how your disrespect would be hurting me?[/QUOTE]
Doesnt change that its incest?
[QUOTE=DrTaxi;47797680]And what justification would you have for doing that? I wouldn't be hurting you or anyone else. So why would I deserve the treatment society gives to incest couples?[/QUOTE]
In most cases it'd be hurting the recipient of said incest from the incest-er.
And the family dynamic involved in the formation of an incestuous couple to begin would be fucking horrific.
[QUOTE=DrTaxi;47797632]So what changes do you expect to see?
The ones I imagine just go back to disrupting conservative values of group cohesion/uniformity and population growth.
You seem to appreciate those, I don't.[/quote]
if you're drunk enough a random walk feels purposeful
[quote]Justifying incest goes against core beliefs, of course. I realise this is why you cannot fathom someone trying to do it.[/quote]
i can fathom it, i just don't condone it.
it's you that literally can't imagine why people would be against incest. you say it's because of bigotry, going against core beliefs and the usual new atheist nine yards (leftists recycle rhetoric along with their plastics) - but if I asked you to tell me the etiology of those beliefs and how they viscerally feel on the inside you couldn't, nor do you even have the ability to fake it without it looking like a strawman.
this is because progressives are morally autistic in a very precise sense. they only natively work in the care/harm and maybe liberty/tyranny foundations of morality, leaving the others stunted and atrophied. conservatives are more balanced (they make up for this by being singularly uninterested in combining them into a halfway-rigorous unified framework, and thus retreat on all fronts when leftists use their well-developed care/harm principles .. conservatives are bad at arguing harm and they conceded control of the memetic battlefield long ago)
[quote]But throughout history, a great many of those core beliefs have been overturned. A monarchist in the middle ages would have had the same reaction as you are having right now to someone proposing democracy. Or, to stick with my earlier example: If you had been born 100 years ago, you most likely would've had the same reaction to someone justifying homosexuality.
Please consider that so many positive changes in history would've never happened if some "untouchable" values really hadn't been touched.[/quote]
those weren't positive changes.
sorry, appealing to the current date ("IT'S 2015, BIGOT!") isn't a valid way to argue.
[QUOTE=DrTaxi;47797278]Yes, yes I did.
Incest is an abnormal sexual attraction - most people aren't into incest. So is homosexuality - most people are straight.
It's also incompatible with the traditional family - the husband may also be the brother etc. So is homosexuality - there's no wife.
It also doesn't serve the growth of the human population - the children of incestuous couples, if they decide to have children, have an increased risk of being born with diseases. Homosexual couples don't bear children.
It also doesn't, by itself, hurt anybody involved. Incest couples aren't [I]by definition[/I] dysfunctional, or unhappy - neither are homosexuals despite how homophobic messages tend to present them. And they don't necessarily have children - any distaste towards incest couples in general because of the portion of them that do is thus pure prejudice.
You could say incest couples "hurt people" by making them feel disgust towards them, but if you were gonna make that argument, you'd have to say the same about homosexuals, because homophobes also exist in quite large amounts. But you don't do that, because that would be awful, right?
So what's the meaningful difference that makes this comparison unfair?
The only one I see is that society has (largely) progressed far enough to accept two men having sex, but not two brothers.[/QUOTE]
People like you make me question why I still go on to this place.
I seriously cant understand why you feel the need to defend something that is objectively wrong in nearly every way, other than that you want to feel like you're fighting the good fight for a section of the populace who probably deserve to be in prison for molesting their family members.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;47797682]They do cause harm. Incestuous relationships almost always manifest themselves in the form of parents abusing their children, or siblings abusing one another. Rape is common among incestuous families, along with other kinds of physical and mental abuse.
That is why I am opposed to them. It is disgusting because disgusting things are done during them.
Except most of the time there is no consent. Very rarely is there an incestuous relationship where one partner is not abusing the other.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you but how do you feel about incestuous relationships between two consenting adults? For the sake of example, 25 year old twins of different sexes both agreed to the relationship and are happy within it. Do you oppose that?
[QUOTE=blerb;47797714]I agree with you but how do you feel about incestuous relationships between two consenting adults? For the sake of example, 25 year old twins of different sexes both agreed to the relationship and are happy within it. Do you oppose that?[/QUOTE]
If they're raised normally in a healthy family, usually this doesn't happen, because family members (in functioning families) don't tend to become sexually attracted to one another. If they do however, that's going to raise questions about how they were raised.
I wish I never got involved in this thread. :pwn:
[QUOTE=blerb;47797714]I agree with you but how do you feel about incestuous relationships between two consenting adults? For the sake of example, 25 year old twins of different sexes both agreed to the relationship and are happy within it. Do you oppose that?[/QUOTE]
If such a case exists and wasn't accidental in the case of the op's post, I've yet to see it regardless if the couple was straight/homosexual. Like what Sobotnik said, this is a pretty rare example. Family members typically don't exhibit behavior of this kind willingly without some kind of history of issues in their upbringing.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;47797729]If they're raised normally in a healthy family, usually this doesn't happen, because family members (in functioning families) don't tend to become sexually attracted to one another. If they do however, that's going to raise questions about how they were raised.[/QUOTE]
That's a fair point. That leads me to another question, though. If both parties are considered dysfunctional in this sense in adulthood, would it be wiser to reverse that dysfunction (try to, anyway) or let them continue? I would have originally said that they should be free to continue their relationship, but considering your point (along with the myriad other reasons to not be incestuous) makes me inclined to lean the other way.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
