Firearms XII; Because Merica - General

[QUOTE=Pilot1215;49097207]What's a decent cheaper 9mm that I can use for conceal carry?[/QUOTE] Define your price point for "cheap." If you are looking for best value, get a S&W Shield. Used XDs's and Glock 43's are also good picks. Keltec PF9's are a hit-or-miss with its QC. Bersa also makes good value handguns, look at them. If you are willing to take a gamble, Taurus offers the 111G2 and the 709 as some people have had good experiences with the improved QC, free NRA membership, and Customer Service.

[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;49097298]It was marked but the bulk Winchester bird shot have IDENTICAL packaging regardless gauge and I was on my lunch break. I saw "2 3/4" and the box was the same one I had just shot go so I grabbed it[/QUOTE] I bet you could just go back to the store and trade it out if it's a normal corporation or what have you.

[QUOTE=zach1193;49097421]I bet you could just go back to the store and trade it out if it's a normal corporation or what have you.[/QUOTE] Most stores have a zero tolerance return policy for ammunition, Walmart especially.

I accidentally bought 20ga instead of 12 at my favorite gun store when I bought my Remington M10 and they [I]called me[/I] to let me know that I'd picked up the wrong box and swapped it next time I came in. I would never have noticed otherwise until I got to the range with it.

[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;49095755]I just realized the 100 rounds of shotgun shells I just bought is 20GA when I wanted 12GA. I'm such a fuck up. God damn.[/QUOTE] Sounds to me like you need a 20GA now.

[QUOTE=Pilot1215;49097207]What's a decent cheaper 9mm that I can use for conceal carry?[/QUOTE] I just ordered a Polish p-64 yesterday from classic firearms. 200$ for gun, 20 for hand select, 17 for shipping, 20 for ffl transfer fee. It's a pretty small gun, but is steel so its still got a bit of heft on it. Shoots 9*18. I plan on getting an appendix holster and carrying it, either that or sticking it in my inside coat pocket. It hasn't arrived yet, but I'll make a post about it after I try it out.

[QUOTE=Lone_Star94;49097335]Define your price point for "cheap." If you are looking for best value, get a S&W Shield. Used XDs's and Glock 43's are also good picks. Keltec PF9's are a hit-or-miss with its QC. Bersa also makes good value handguns, look at them. If you are willing to take a gamble, Taurus offers the 111G2 and the 709 as some people have had good experiences with the improved QC, free NRA membership, and Customer Service.[/QUOTE] I'd just buy a used Glock 26 or 43. My best friend CC'd a Keltec PF9 for years, and then shot my 26 at the range and bought one the next week and has never looked back.

I'm considering getting an Arsenal Strike One Speed. They are not terribly expensive compared to other match pistols in the production class actually, and they look quite interesting in regards to recoil because of the low bore axis. I'm just not entirely sure if I'm a fan of the trigger on striker fired pistols. Keep in mind that this would be for competitive shooting.

[QUOTE=Birdman101;49098015]I just ordered a Polish p-64 yesterday from classic firearms. 200$ for gun, 20 for hand select, 17 for shipping, 20 for ffl transfer fee. It's a pretty small gun, but is steel so its still got a bit of heft on it. Shoots 9*18. I plan on getting an appendix holster and carrying it, either that or sticking it in my inside coat pocket. It hasn't arrived yet, but I'll make a post about it after I try it out.[/QUOTE] I absolutely would not carry a surplus pistol like that, especially a 9x18.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;49101310]I absolutely would not carry a surplus pistol like that, especially a 9x18.[/QUOTE] Hornady makes carry ammo for it. Ballistically it's in between .380 and 9mm. With all the evidence showing that it's shot placement rather than caliber that matters I'd feel plenty safe carrying a 9x18. As for the gun itself, IIRC it's a Makarov clone, don't see why it wouldn't be a viable choice if he doesn't mind the weight.

[QUOTE=PrusseLusken;49101897]when you can get double stack guns with better sights and triggers i wouldn't get one.. but maybe just my opinion.[/QUOTE] There are definitely better carry guns out there, but probably not at the price point of a P-64. I just don't get the 'I absolutely would not carry that'. I'd rather have any gun than no gun and as far as 'any gun' goes, a Makarov clone in a proven caliber is far from the worst you could do.

New rifle purchased. Hopefully it will be here soon.

[QUOTE=catbarf;49102061]There are definitely better carry guns out there, but probably not at the price point of a P-64. I just don't get the 'I absolutely would not carry that'. I'd rather have any gun than no gun and as far as 'any gun' goes, a Makarov clone in a proven caliber is far from the worst you could do.[/QUOTE] I don't really get it, either. It's not like it's a cap and ball revolver. It's one of the most reliable handguns on the planet.

[QUOTE=catbarf;49102061]There are definitely better carry guns out there, but probably not at the price point of a P-64. I just don't get the 'I absolutely would not carry that'. I'd rather have any gun than no gun and as far as 'any gun' goes, a Makarov clone in a proven caliber is far from the worst you could do.[/QUOTE] odd words coming from the guy who had a conniption when he thought I said I might want to carry a Jericho #roasted

a p64 is a heavy gun for a compact with a single stack in it. [editline]12th November 2015[/editline] its an ideal purse gun thanks to its small size and manageable recoil. god knows why it was selected as a service pistol though

Yea I know its heavy and single stack, it doesnt bother me. Since I'll be wearing my big jacket for the next 6 months, I can easily keep it in the inner pocket. [editline]12th November 2015[/editline] I like ugly steel service guns

[QUOTE=catbarf;49101415]Hornady makes carry ammo for it. Ballistically it's in between .380 and 9mm. With all the evidence showing that it's shot placement rather than caliber that matters I'd feel plenty safe carrying a 9x18. As for the gun itself, IIRC it's a Makarov clone, don't see why it wouldn't be a viable choice if he doesn't mind the weight.[/QUOTE] Because it's something thats supposed to save your life, and you shouldn't be a cheap piece of shit about it. A P64 is a cheapo combloc makarov clone, hardly something you should carry. It's got pathetic ammo capacity and doesn't exactly have the best cartridge on the planet. For a few hundred bucks more, you could get something far more practical and something far more reliable. I've owned Makarovs, they're fun and they're great guns, but under no circumstances would I carry one with me and expect it to save my life. It's absolute lunacy to buy some PoS Soviet surplus for conceal carry. [editline]12th November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Birdman101;49104096]Yea I know its heavy and single stack, it doesnt bother me. Since I'll be wearing my big jacket for the next 6 months, I can easily keep it in the inner pocket. [/quote] It should bother you. The only reason to carry single stack is if you're a 120 pound 5'0 manlet who can't convincingly conceal a doublestack. If you were only allowed to conceal carry a knife, would you carry a 2' blade because it looked cooler, was easier to conceal, and was soviet surplus? Of course not, you can't do much with a 2' blade. [QUOTE=Birdman101;49104096] I like ugly steel service guns[/QUOTE] Me too and I also think the Mateba Autorevolvers and Chiappa Rhinos are the bee's knees as far as looks and interesting designs go, but I wouldn't ever carry one of those pieces of shit with me for personal defense. [editline]12th November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Grenadiac;49103126]I don't really get it, either. It's not like it's a cap and ball revolver. It's one of the most reliable handguns on the planet.[/QUOTE] Honestly carrying a cap and ball wouldn't be all that different than a mak clone. Comparable stopping power, comparable ammo capacity, and far more reliable.

Why get a P64 when you can get a CZ82? Unless you already have one, I'd carry the CZ82 over the P64, IMHO.

I'd happily carry a tokarev

[QUOTE=MAC21500;49105237]Why get a P64 when you can get a CZ82? Unless you already have one, I'd carry the CZ82 over the P64, IMHO.[/QUOTE] I have an 82 and it's a lot bigger than a P64, it's almost full-size. It's also particularly fat, whereas the P64 is all of an inch wide. They're very different in profile, [url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/Emerfudg/P-64Shots/CZ82vsP-64040107.jpg]here's[/url] a comparison photo I found online. [QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;49104506]It should bother you. The only reason to carry single stack is if you're a 120 pound 5'0 manlet who can't convincingly conceal a doublestack. [/QUOTE] If you're going into this discussion with the assumption that there's no reason to carry anything less than a full-size double-stack handgun then I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree. Plenty of people are happy with single-stack compact and subcompact 9mms and .380s so at least be aware that your opinion is far from the majority opinion. You're not even making much of an argument, you just keep appealing to the facts that it's surplus and Soviet as if that guilt by association means anything. I've never seen any complaints about the design or manufacture of the P64 (on the contrary, everyone seems to say they're very well made) and the Makarov pedigree is rock-solid. If it shoots reliably, is powerful enough to meet FBI penetration requirements, and has the maximum capacity for its size, then I don't see a problem. Carry a spare mag. For $200 I'm willing to bet you're not going to find anything better, and getting a more expensive gun is not always practical for everyone. Enough people have been shot dead by single-stack 9x18s, both in self-defense and in combat, that comparing it to a cap and ball revolver or implying you 'can't do much' with it is just shitposting.

[QUOTE=catbarf;49105518]I have an 82 and it's a lot bigger than a P64, it's almost full-size. It's also particularly fat, whereas the P64 is all of an inch wide. They're very different in profile, [url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/Emerfudg/P-64Shots/CZ82vsP-64040107.jpg]here's[/url] a comparison photo I found online. If you're going into this discussion with the assumption that there's no reason to carry anything less than a full-size double-stack handgun then I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree. Plenty of people are happy with single-stack compact and subcompact 9mms and .380s so at least be aware that your opinion is far from the majority opinion. You're not even making much of an argument, you just keep appealing to the facts that it's surplus and Soviet as if that guilt by association means anything. I've never seen any complaints about the design or manufacture of the P64 (on the contrary, everyone seems to say they're very well made) and the Makarov pedigree is rock-solid. If it shoots reliably, is powerful enough to meet FBI penetration requirements, and has the maximum capacity for its size, then I don't see a problem. Carry a spare mag. For $200 I'm willing to bet you're not going to find anything better, and getting a more expensive gun is not always practical for everyone. Enough people have been shot dead by single-stack 9x18s, both in self-defense and in combat, that comparing it to a cap and ball revolver or implying you 'can't do much' with it is just shitposting.[/QUOTE] For one, you can get a compact and subcompact thats double stack. There is literally no reason to carry a single stack in 2015. I never questioned the reliability of the P64, I'm merely pointing out that it's a dreadfully old design and outdated design, and the Soviets aren't known for consistent toolmanship. There are far better designs that are only a few hundred bucks more, I've said it before and I'll say it again, [b]when you are investing in something that may need to save your life, or the life of someone else, you should not be a cheap ass about it. [/b]Buy something worth a damn, not something because it's cool or looks pretty. 9x18 is reliable enough in SD loads, but again, single stack with a god awful mag release. You can make the argument that you can change the mag on it in one motion, but try doing that when someone is shooting at you or trying to stab you. Not being able to eject a magazine with one hand is not something you want in a self defense gun. And you said that 9x18 single stacks have killed enough people in combat as well as in self defense; so has cap and ball. Killed many a man in the ol'west days. I feel it's very comparable considering how hilariously outdated the two of them are in comparison to modern handguns. Lets actually break down the pricepoint and forget about it being outdated and singlestack, since that seems to be everyones most valid argument. A base grade P64, after taxes and shipping and transfer fees, is going to be about $250~ all said and done. A glock trade in will run you about $150 more. A new M&P Shield will run you about $150 more. Aim Surplus had CZ99's for $250 not long ago A Ruger LCP would run you about $100 more A SCCY CPX would be about the same price A Turk Zigana will run you about $100 more Canik TP9's are about $100 more So I ask again, why not spend the extra money and get something far more modern, far more reliable, and far more comfortable to use. There is literally no reason in 2015 to CC a mak clone.

Just to piss you all off, I'm going to carry my C96 when I get my license.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;49105680] [b]when you are investing in something that may need to save your life, or the life of someone else, you should not be a cheap ass about it. [/b] [/QUOTE] This argument grinds my gears so much. Under that justification, you should dump your life savings into the one gun to protect yourself. Some people don't have the cash to buy "the best" or "the greatest" gun on the market. Saving up to the next best thing can be the difference between having food for a week or going hungry. Many people still live pay check to pay check. Many people write off the surplus market as old, antiquated, and obsolete. They can be far from that. If anything, they are built like tanks due to the time of their creation. Any gun is better than no gun in defense. On top of that, there is a reason why we have a variety of guns. Not everyone wants a glock, a s&w, or whatever the tactical community has chosen to be the flavor of the month. If you haven't noticed or have had your head in the sand, the single stack handguns have made a major comeback. So strong in fact that SIG is bringing back the P225. A single stack full size handgun. XDs's have sold strongly for a long time along with the S&W shield. As problematic as the 1911 can be, it is still a top selling model and it is single stack too. The single stack handgun has it's place and it's not going to disappear anytime soon. And the thing makes most Mak clones sell, is the price. In the end it up to the end user to train with the weapon and learn the ins and outs of it. Even if you give a person the best gun in the world, if they can't bother to learn how it works, it's becomes no better than a cheap revolver or Jennings.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;49105680]There is literally no reason to carry a single stack in 2015. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;49105680]A Ruger LCP would run you about $100 more[/QUOTE] So you call single-stack handguns hilariously outdated, compare them to cap and ball revolvers, say there is [I]literally no reason to carry one[/I], then recommend a single-stack handgun with the same capacity and [I]smaller[/I] caliber as a better self-defense option. Good job. Not to mention a slew of full-size combat handguns (have you [I]seen[/I] a TP9 or CZ99?). Like I said, if you're going to be one of those people who thinks there's no reason to carry anything smaller than full-size we're going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. If you're not and including full-size handguns on your recommendation list was an accident, then I'd appreciate recommendations for guns with a similar size and profile and comparable cost, and preferably some reasons for why he shouldn't use the P64 that aren't just repeating 'but it's Soviet! and old! and cheap!' as if those are inherently negative qualities, or 'single stack = obsolete' as if single-stack subcompacts don't continue to be extremely popular as CC weapons. You've pointed out the heel magazine release, that's legitimate. A point to you. [QUOTE=Lone_Star94;49105887]This argument grinds my gears so much. Under that justification, you should dump your life savings into the one gun to protect yourself. Some people don't have the cash to buy "the best" or "the greatest" gun on the market. Saving up to the next best thing can be the difference between having food for a week or going hungry. Many people still live pay check to pay check. [/QUOTE] Really when it comes down to it nobody who lives in Detroit or Chicago thinks 'Fuck my life is in danger, I better get a piece of Soviet surplus to defend my life'. If some dude wants to buy an old Soviet pistol because it's an extremely cheap gun with some historical value and since he's got it, why not carry it, even if he's not living in a high-crime area, then I don't see anything wrong with that. If it's a proven design in an effective caliber, all the better. The way Cyke is talking you should either shell out for a state-of-the-art plastic defensive handgun with no history and at least double the price tag to ensure your grocery shopping run is secure, or leave your perfectly functional albeit not-quite-state-of-the-art pistol at home as if you'll somehow be safer with no gun than an old gun. Both those options seem pretty stupid to me, especially when the gun in question isn't something really questionable like a .25ACP mousegun, but rather a proven design from the most prolific Eastern Bloc handgun family and with reviews across the Internet that are largely positive. Any gun's better than no gun, just get a proper holster and quality defensive ammunition for it.

So I got my Sig 220 back from the Cerakoter today Before: [img]http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo18/UncleJimmema/12196068_10205170197556148_3553139098157095564_n.jpg[/img] After: [img]http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo18/UncleJimmema/12212297_10205229198831143_1471738699_n.jpg[/img] Got it colored Burnt Bronze, I think it looks pretty sharp. Now I just have to wait until my shop gets dealer direct from sig again and I'll throw in an SRT trigger and some new siglite sights. Have some hogues for it now but i'd like to get some G10's for it eventually.

[QUOTE=catbarf;49105932]So you call single-stack handguns hilariously outdated, compare them to cap and ball revolvers, say there is [I]literally no reason to carry one[/I], then recommend a single-stack handgun with the same capacity and [I]smaller[/I] caliber as a better self-defense option. Good job.[/quote] Lets actually break down the pricepoint and forget about it being outdated and singlestack, since that seems to be everyones most valid argument. [/quote] Re-read what I said. Ignoring all the certain factors that make certain handguns garbage, and looking at them from a price standpoint, you can find a much better handgun at a comparable price. [QUOTE=catbarf;49105932] Not to mention a slew of full-size combat handguns (have you [I]seen[/I] a TP9 or CZ99?). Like I said, if you're going to be one of those people who thinks there's no reason to carry anything smaller than full-size we're going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. [/quote] The CZ99 is a sub-compact, and the TP9 isn't that big unless you're a 5'0 manlet, as previously stated. [QUOTE=catbarf;49105932] If you're not and including full-size handguns on your recommendation list was an accident, then I'd appreciate recommendations for guns with a similar size and profile and comparable cost, and preferably some reasons for why he shouldn't use the P64 that aren't just repeating 'but it's Soviet! and old! and cheap!' as if those are inherently negative qualities, or 'single stack = obsolete' as if single-stack subcompacts don't continue to be extremely popular as CC weapons. You've pointed out the heel magazine release, that's legitimate. A point to you. [/QUOTE] Single stack 6 round magazine heel magazine release Slide mounted safety Weighs 14 pounds I've said this 14 times thus far and I will say this again. I have owned makarovs. I have owned a P64. [b]they are not bad guns[/b]. But you should not carry one for self defense. 7+1 capacity is hilariously bad in 45ACP, 6+1 in 9x18 is laughable. [editline]13th November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Lone_Star94;49105887]This argument grinds my gears so much. Under that justification, you should dump your life savings into the one gun to protect yourself. Some people don't have the cash to buy "the best" or "the greatest" gun on the market. Saving up to the next best thing can be the difference between having food for a week or going hungry. Many people still live pay check to pay check. [/quote] I've lived paycheck to paycheck, and it wasn't that long ago either. I saved up for nearly 2 years of wheeling and dealing guns to buy my HK USP40, and that gun has saved my life on more than one occasion. I used to have to sell guns on top of my 2 jobs just to make rent, and I was still able to save up enough to buy a few guns I wanted. Obviously every situation is different, but it's not impossible to save money, and if your money situation is so bad then perhaps you shouldn't be wasting it on a gun unless you absolutely need it. And if you absolutely need it you should buy something better than a P64. [QUOTE=Lone_Star94;49105887] Many people write off the surplus market as old, antiquated, and obsolete. They can be far from that. If anything, they are built like tanks due to the time of their creation. Any gun is better than no gun in defense. [/quote] Most of the guns I own are military surplus. You're preaching to the choir bud. But if I, for some reason, was thrown into combat, I wouldn't be taking my SVT-40 and TT-33 with me. [QUOTE=Lone_Star94;49105887] On top of that, there is a reason why we have a variety of guns. Not everyone wants a glock, a s&w, or whatever the tactical community has chosen to be the flavor of the month. If you haven't noticed or have had your head in the sand, the single stack handguns have made a major comeback. So strong in fact that SIG is bringing back the P225. A single stack full size handgun. XDs's have sold strongly for a long time along with the S&W shield. As problematic as the 1911 can be, it is still a top selling model and it is single stack too. [/quote] You don't have to buy some overly tactical handgun for self defense. There are plenty alternatives out there to a glock or a XD. I've owned a P225 P6 in the past, and I loved it, but why in the ever loving fuck would you buy one (for SD) over a P226? They're literally the same exact size, except the P226 is double stack? The only difference between the 2 is cost. Why you're even bringing that up is beyond me. The 1911 is an awful comparison, as it's the epitome of Americans shoveling garbage down their own throats because it's an ~American Icon~ of the Gun world. They're overpriced and overrated. Using one for SD is about as stupid as it gets. [QUOTE=Lone_Star94;49105887] The single stack handgun has it's place and it's not going to disappear anytime soon. [/quote] You're right, it does. It's great for pocket pistols and ankle pistols for people who can't use a hip holster for whatever reason, but using it as a primary sidearm? Thats just fucking dumb. [QUOTE=Lone_Star94;49105887] And the thing makes most Mak clones sell, is the price. In the end it up to the end user to train with the weapon and learn the ins and outs of it. Even if you give a person the best gun in the world, if they can't bother to learn how it works, it's becomes no better than a cheap revolver or Jennings.[/QUOTE] I've said my piece so I'm done. What it comes down to is you guys saying that the P64 is reliable *enough* for self defense, and I'm saying you should buy something more modern, more comfortable, and more effective for a marginal difference in cost.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;49106293]So I got my Sig 220 back from the Cerakoter today Before: [img]http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo18/UncleJimmema/12196068_10205170197556148_3553139098157095564_n.jpg[/img] After: [img]http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo18/UncleJimmema/12212297_10205229198831143_1471738699_n.jpg[/img] Got it colored Burnt Bronze, I think it looks pretty sharp. Now I just have to wait until my shop gets dealer direct from sig again and I'll throw in an SRT trigger and some new siglite sights. Have some hogues for it now but i'd like to get some G10's for it eventually.[/QUOTE] I bought my SRT Trigger from Top Gun Supply.

[QUOTE=Ridge;49106963]I bought my SRT Trigger from Top Gun Supply.[/QUOTE] I got my grey guns trigger from them and put it in my 226. Awesome upgrade, highly recommend it. But I work at a gun shop, and up until July we had a dealer direct program with Sig so I only had to pay $30 for my SRT triggers and such. Then Sig decided to change their dealer shit yet again so it's either going to be the end of this month or January when we get direct again.

Hahah wow. I live in a town of 200k in the midwest, I don't need a full-size polymer 9mm with rails, tac light, laser sights, and enough ammo capacity to mow down an entire street gang. Yeah, something like a bodyguard 380 would do the job better, but I would rather only spend half the price on something that fits my needs just fine. Realistically I've got a better chance of getting attacked by a wild animal than a bad guy with a gun who could somehow survive 7 shots of 9mm. In either situation, the p64 would do just fine, unless the animal was a bear or the bad guy was wearing armor and brought his bad guy buddies. Yeah, its old, steel, communist, single stack, and outdated, but guns don't magically stop working once newer guns are designed and built. It's cheap, reliable, has a good safety for a dirty filty sub par commie surplus gun, and has worked fine for the polish military and police since the 60s. I'm going to pick it up today and try it out. If for some reason it turns out to be an awful pile of shit, then I'll buy something else and I've got a cheap beater gun I can leave in the door of my car in case I just need something that goes bang. Oh, and if I only have one hand to eject the mag, how the hell am I supposed to load a new one? With my teeth?

Does anyone have experience with the S&W SD9VE on here?