[QUOTE=maximizer39v2;42070678]Maybe we should let the individual decide if they're being harassed instead of an elite group of feminazis.[/QUOTE]
feminazis?
I view women's ability to rely on partner's to court them rather than being expected to take the initiative themselves as partly a disadvantage, and partly a privilege. On one hand many women express dislike towards being pestered by creeps, and there's probably those who dislike not being able to be the one taking initiative without being seen as being too forward or desperate. On the other hand you're also given the opportunity to pick and choose between those which have shown you interest, and unlike men being shy or having bad confidence is significantly less of a problem when trying to find a partner since you are not required to be the one trying to make good impression.
As a bisexual, I've had a slight taste of the opposite role when for example using gay hook-up sites. I know what it's like to have creepy men you are clearly not interested in making crude comments or obsessive guys not being able to take a hint, but I also highly enjoyed being constantly flattered, and being able to meet interested partners without me being the one forced to make the first move.
I can see why some women complain, but in general I feel more jealousy than pity.
[QUOTE=Simski;42073131]I can see why some women complain, but in general I feel more jealousy than pity.[/QUOTE]
You experience it on a few sites and can choose to not engage in those sites at any time, while for a lot of women it's an ongoing an inescapable thing. It's not really the same thing.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;42095249]You experience it on a few sites and can choose to not engage in those sites at any time, while for a lot of women it's an ongoing an inescapable thing. It's not really the same thing.[/QUOTE]
The male and female experience are completely different but in no way is one better than the other.
And what he described was, in fact, the same thing.
I get hit on a surprising amount (when I wear my hair down) and I don't find it offensive, why would any woman? It's a subject with a very fuzzy boarder but to some extent it's required that people at least have the [I]capacity to try[/I] pickups on others, however if they get no positive response they should move on.
Girls are utterly within their rights to simply tell the guy to go fuck himself, or come up with some much more colorful insult if they find the attempt patronizing or offensive. As said earlier, if it persists beyond that point, it's harassment. "She's playing hard to get" is a dumb line of reasoning to follow; so if a girl is not playing ball then you should go away.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42072029]feminazis?[/QUOTE]
[t]http://feminspire.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/straw-feminism.png[/t] [t]http://feminspire.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/straw-feminists.png[/t]
:v:
Flirting with a girl is in no way harassment unless she is clearly uncomfortable with the flirting and makes it known, yet the behaviour persists.
At least that's my point of view.
Unless you're one of those strawmen feminists. Then everything and everyone is conspiring to keep women down and keep men at the top. But it'd be hard to prove that in court.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;42096059]I get hit on a surprising amount (when I wear my hair down) and I don't find it offensive, why would any woman? It's a subject with a very fuzzy boarder but to some extent it's required that people at least have the [I]capacity to try[/I] pickups on others, however if they get no positive response they should move on.
Girls are utterly within their rights to simply tell the guy to go fuck himself, or come up with some much more colorful insult if they find the attempt patronizing or offensive. As said earlier, if it persists beyond that point, it's harassment. "She's playing hard to get" is a dumb line of reasoning to follow; so if a girl is not playing ball then you should go away.
[t]http://feminspire.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/straw-feminism.png[/t] [t]http://feminspire.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/straw-feminists.png[/t]
:v:[/QUOTE]
thanks for understanding <3
[QUOTE=Simski;42073131]you are not required to be the one trying to make good impression.[/QUOTE]
You do have to present yourself as "desirable" for someone to come on to you though.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;42095249]You experience it on a few sites and can choose to not engage in those sites at any time, while for a lot of women it's an ongoing an inescapable thing. It's not really the same thing.[/QUOTE]
That's the thing though. Women who take the initiative role are less likely to find a serious partner and will be looked down upon by both genders, and men who take the passive role are less likely to find a serious partner and will be looked down upon by both genders. I can't choose to live a life where I focus on my own appearance to attract partners to come to me, and women can't live a life where they rely on good confidence to try their luck with partners they find attractive.
If I could reliably take the same passive role as women with all its ups and downs, I would. However women can't choose to not have the opposite gender hit on them, and I can't choose to have the opposite gender hit on me. We're forced to play the cards we're dealt.
While flirting itself is not a problem, it's clear that there is a difference between respectful flirting and disrespectful flirting. Hitting on someone by saying "Your boobs are great and they'd look good against my dick" is a pretty good way to get rejected (to say the least) and make someone feel uncomfortable.
Likewise, while l337's statement is technically true, that doesn't necessarily mean that that should be your code of conduct. Socially skilled people can pickup cues as to when someone is uncomfortable or feeling harassed. And certain phrases, actions, or statements will automatically be seen as sexual harassment, even if you were never told to stop (i.e. "Can I touch your pussy?," touching someone butt to "flirt" with them, and other really creepy statements/actions). Plus, you might not be literally told to stop - the victim might just leave, or say something similar to "stop."
Unfortunately, real life is not like the movies. Being too persistent most often comes across as creepy and makes people uncomfortable, if someone asks you to leave them alone or that they're not interested, its far better to just drop it there and then. There's nothing romantic or charming about being desperate.
Alternatively, if she seems somewhat interested but not jumping into bed with you, its not a bad idea to just ask for a number and them let them enjoy the rest of their night.
[QUOTE=Reimu;42119519]While flirting itself is not a problem, it's clear that there is a difference between respectful flirting and disrespectful flirting. Hitting on someone by saying "Your boobs are great and they'd look good against my dick" is a pretty good way to get rejected (to say the least) and make someone feel uncomfortable.
Likewise, while l337's statement is technically true, that doesn't necessarily mean that that should be your code of conduct. Socially skilled people can pickup cues as to when someone is uncomfortable or feeling harassed. And certain phrases, actions, or statements will automatically be seen as sexual harassment, even if you were never told to stop (i.e. "Can I touch your pussy?," touching someone butt to "flirt" with them, and other really creepy statements/actions). Plus, you might not be literally told to stop - the victim might just leave, or say something similar to "stop."[/QUOTE]
There are no clear guidelines and rules what works and what does not when hitting on someone though. Since the rules are a mystery, yet the only way to win is to play, finding the right strategy is a matter of trial and error. The line between good confidence or going too far is not blatantly obvious to everyone, nor something that remains objectively the same from person to person.
I think if you're polite and respectful to women, then feel free unless she asks you to stop. If you're objectifying them/being offensive/a dick about it then that's harassment. I think the problem is, that if you're being intimidating about it, women can't tell whether or not you'll cross the line from verbal harassment to physical harassment and that's kind of terrifying.
[QUOTE=Simski;42118068]That's the thing though. Women who take the initiative role are less likely to find a serious partner and will be looked down upon by both genders, and men who take the passive role are less likely to find a serious partner and will be looked down upon by both genders. I can't choose to live a life where I focus on my own appearance to attract partners to come to me, and women can't live a life where they rely on good confidence to try their luck with partners they find attractive.
If I could reliably take the same passive role as women with all its ups and downs, I would. However women can't choose to not have the opposite gender hit on them, and I can't choose to have the opposite gender hit on me. We're forced to play the cards we're dealt.[/QUOTE]
That's kinda what I think. Wouldn't it be better to push for actual equality and make it so that women that hit on guys are not looked down upon instead of what the culture nowadays dictates?
[editline]8th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Krutonmi;42119936]I think if you're polite and respectful to women, then feel free unless she asks you to stop. If you're objectifying them/being offensive/a dick about it then that's harassment. I think the problem is, that if you're being intimidating about it, women can't tell whether or not you'll cross the line from verbal harassment to physical harassment and that's kind of terrifying.[/QUOTE]
But being ONLY polite and respectful to women gets you nowhere. I'm not saying you have to be a total asshole, but how do you think the whole "omg friendzone" thing started? It started with guys who were polite and respectful and what they viewed as extremely nice to the girls they liked, and then felt entitled to that girl's eternal love and gratitude for showing how there's still nice guys left in the world~~
No offense meant, but a couple of tries will already tell you that to successfully get a girl interested in you, you need to say some crazy or stupid stuff, be unexpected and just generally more than just "polite and respectful".
Sorry, I sort of meant, if you're hitting on her, just be nice about it and respect her. But if you're talking to her, be yourself and that's great. And I agree with you about that whole friendzone thing; it really annoys me.
Picking up girls isn't harassment, but it can be most unpleasant and sometimes it will become harassment and extremely sexist, if you treat them only as prizes for your sexual pleasure.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;42058528]What motivated me to make this thread is how, recently, the [url=http://www.youtube.com/user/SimplePickup]Simplepickup[/url] channel caught the attention of some tumblr feminists. You know how that goes. blablabla...[/QUOTE]
The simple pickup channel is a channel made exclusively to degrading women to be their medal in the race to get booty. They do not treat them as humans, but as prizes. This is, in my mind, sexist. I also saw this video from them where one dude just kissed a woman on the lips without consent, making it sexual harassment.
[QUOTE=NightWig;42129444]I also saw this video from them where one dude just kissed a woman on the lips without consent, making it sexual harassment.[/QUOTE]
Yes but I've already said, in most of those times they actually kiss them back. Isn't it safe to assume that they have enough social tact to realize when it's a good time to kiss a girl because she'll kiss them back, even if they don't ask first?
[editline]9th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=NightWig;42129444]and sometimes it will become harassment and extremely sexist, if you treat them only as prizes for your sexual pleasure.[/QUOTE]
Because women are fragile little beings who do not at all want sex at any time in their lives? You do realize sex is usually a good experience for both people involved?
It's not harassment until you make it clear that you don't want people to talk to you. This is like saying "is talking to somebody about the weather and trying to make friends harassment"
The point of these videos, to me at least, is to show guys which pick-up methods work and which don't.
If they explain afterwards to the women that they're putting it on YouTube in an attempt to keep guys from doing that more often, I'd say that's somewhat acceptable.
Be respectful and funny, and that is all.
Well, there is nothing wrong with approaching someone.
Yet it is very annoying, especially if you are just going about your day and suddenly a guy started showing you there abs.
If it's let's say in a pub, or club or anykind of social gathering kind of scene. No problem, people came there to do exactly that.
But if I am just grocery shopping and a guy or girl suddenly started to chat me up, even if flattering, it's highly annoying and disruptive of what I came to do in the first place.
That's why it's better to approach and see if the person you are approaching is giving you hints that they don't mind. Then you go on.
An example is:
You say ''Hi'' to the girl. If the girl says ''hi'' back and she then looks away or continues to look at whatever she was doing, leave her be.
If she says ''hi'' back and mantains eyecontact, go in.
You're welcome.
[editline]14th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;42120804]That's kinda what I think. Wouldn't it be better to push for actual equality and make it so that women that hit on guys are not looked down upon instead of what the culture nowadays dictates?
[editline]8th September 2013[/editline]
But being ONLY polite and respectful to women gets you nowhere. I'm not saying you have to be a total asshole, but how do you think the whole "omg friendzone" thing started? It started with guys who were polite and respectful and what they viewed as extremely nice to the girls they liked, and then felt entitled to that girl's eternal love and gratitude for showing how there's still nice guys left in the world~~
No offense meant, but a couple of tries will already tell you that to successfully get a girl interested in you, you need to say some crazy or stupid stuff, be unexpected and just generally more than just "polite and respectful".[/QUOTE]
Nope. Ugly guys get friendzoned yeah. From a pure hormonal, and pheromonal stance of view, it doesn't matter if you are nice and respectful.
It's all about attraction. A girl usually feels attracted, instinctively, to a mate to whom she feels equal to, who is powerful (which means someone confident, at ease, comfortable around anyone), attractive (not just looks, but who is hygienic, smells nice etc) and entertain her.
You can be the most handsome fuck that has walked on this earth, but if you are a nervous wreck who smells bad... Have fun in the ''friend zone''.
While I'm on the topic of the friendzone, enjoy this video:
[video=youtube;_xHp5iTtWRc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xHp5iTtWRc[/video]
Ofcourse these are initial gateway characteristics. Once the girl feels some attraction to you, your wit and personality will make the homerun.
[QUOTE=TheProfane;42188790]Well, there is nothing wrong with approaching someone.
Yet it is very annoying, especially if you are just going about your day and suddenly a guy started showing you there abs.[/quote]
I don't really see it as very annoying though. I mean, like that first video, he just stood there and they left. No harm done. Maybe they lost like 30 seconds on their way to something, but really that's nothing terrible.
[quote]If it's let's say in a pub, or club or anykind of social gathering kind of scene. No problem, people came there to do exactly that.
But if I am just grocery shopping and a guy or girl suddenly started to chat me up, even if flattering, it's highly annoying and disruptive of what I came to do in the first place.
That's why it's better to approach and see if the person you are approaching is giving you hints that they don't mind. Then you go on.[/quote]
Yeah sure, that I can understand.
[quote]Nope. Ugly guys get friendzoned yeah. From a pure hormonal, and pheromonal stance of view, it doesn't matter if you are nice and respectful. [/quote]
That's kinda exactly what I said though? I mean yeah of course attraction is one of the big factors if not the biggest while approaching girls, but I hadn't even got to that topic :v:
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;42131306]
Because women are fragile little beings who do not at all want sex at any time in their lives? You do realize sex is usually a good experience for both people involved?[/QUOTE]
You are one sick fuck.
What
I said sex is usually considered enjoyable, what's sick about that
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;42190732]What
I said sex is usually considered enjoyable, what's sick about that[/QUOTE]
Actually Ill take that back the way I read your post made it sound like women are only for sex.
Humans are naturally attracted to each-other, as demonstrable biologically.
Suppressing that urge is a choice some people make by choosing to get married or have a girlfriend, which are both turned-religious doctrines (marriage used to be for uniting bloodlines).
Unfortunately, sexual promiscuity has been made into an undesirable trait (females being labelled sluts, males being labeled players) and everyone's looking for relationships as they've been told to, for precisely the wrong reasons.
A notable side effect is that such a big deal is made about sex (when it's really not such a big deal) that homosexuality becomes an issue (which it isn't). I mean seriously, who does homosexuality effect, apart from the people involved? No one. Yet you'll still find old Mrs Baxter from the church opposing homosexuality, which doesn't directly or indirectly affect her, for no good reason, which is just the most stupid thing ever, and it'll keep going on until someone points out how fucking retarded it is. But that's what humans do. A lot.
Another side effect, and far more relevant to this article, is that you get a load of guys who absolutely don't know how to talk to girls yet are desperate to, because the whole issue about sex is so overblown and so much emphasis is put on finding 'the right girl' the first time, and attracting her by showing how great you are (because that's supposedly attractive).
So that's where pickup comes in - It's an attempt to help guys who can't 'get girls', to fulfil their natural desire to reproduce by teaching them that it's not such a scary thing to do.
As for approaching multiple girls, there's no problem with it either. Who honestly gives a fuck, apart from some butthurt guys who are scared that their girlfriends (who are their property, right?) are going to get pinched by some guys who are more interesting than themselves.
If everyone was more promiscuous and less prone to chasing ideals about 'love' and 'marriage' as dictated by religion/hollywood, the world would be a way more chill place to live, anxiety and stress levels would drop significantly and rapes and violent crime statistics would likely drop (cause you'd have less 'crimes of passion' and 'murdered ex boyfriend' bullshit happening).
And yes, the potential is there for guys to take it too far by being creepers, but there's also the potential for things like that to happen without pick-up being involved at all. Developing social skills deals with that.
-eh dumb-
There's nothing wrong with chatting up girls as long as you're polite, respectful and not a complete arsehole.
Saying cheesy stuff or chatting up randomly etc I think is usually fine, but doing stuff like this, crosses the line imo:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_Q5jbEtvl0[/media]
[QUOTE=bunguer;42194811]Saying cheesy stuff or chatting up randomly etc I think is usually fine, but doing stuff like this, crosses the line imo[/QUOTE]
Well, that depends on your culture, where I live it's standard to greet people with a kiss.
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