You're just taking something pure and trying to find meaning in it. Words and scientific models cannot convey what is real, because reality is what is in our minds.
Once you come to understand yourself, you will understand the universe. Doing drugs can help one look at the mind from a different angle, but they build up more of a wall than they break down.
i agree that george carlin is a very angry person. he makes some solid points, but i dont enjoy listening to angry people be angry
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;26370180]I agree there but you know scientist they are researching, so basically we are just as clueless
I mean, cells, fibers, organs, organisms, specimen, the one who figured that all up and put it to work would be a genius, a God. Sounds crazy "theory" I know :v:[/QUOTE]
Well, thing is, evolution doesn't turn an amobea into a human overnight. Changes build on, very slowly, and after billions of years of evolution all of those changes will have formed something very complex, but still predictable and by no means magic.
Same thing goes for technology. It's easy to say "Wow man, particle accelerators, computers, airplanes, all of that is so complex it must have been made by a God", but it's just the result of gradual change, of evolution (of technology), and once you follow the changes step by step it and learn about each function and component in said technology it won't be so complicated anymore.
Scientists are far from clueless. Of course we don't know everything, but we are learning, and it's better to learn and study about the mysteries of the universe rather than to make up some answer out of the blue like "a wizard did it".
I never really expressed my beliefs in God or whatever, and yeah you're right about the evolution.. But the evolution of technology it's all human invented anyway, not work of God
I just see some sort of "structure" in evolution that sticks with what we have very strongly and I don't see evolution creating too many more new species or whatever for us and people keep on getting born.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;26390931]I never really expressed my beliefs in God or whatever, and yeah you're right about the evolution.. But the evolution of technology it's all human invented anyway, not work of God
I just see some sort of "structure" in evolution that sticks with what we have very strongly and I don't see evolution creating too many more new species or whatever for us and people keep on getting born.[/QUOTE]
Actually, species are evolving each day. And what "structure" are you referring too? The only structure of evolution is survival of the fittest gene. Random mutations occur every time a cell divides as it makes mistakes in copying its DNA, however in 99% of the times those mutations are just extra proteins that don't do anything, but when mutations do affect your genes in a significant way your cells change, thus changing the organism. Organisms can sometimes also trigger mutations through cellular processes to adapt to the surroundings. It can be everything from an immunity against a virus, change of brain patterns to an extra nose or whiter skin, and also negative changes such as genetic diseases or things that will slow you down in your environment (like slower legs in a predator-filled jungle). The negative changes are weeded out through survival of the fittest, as the organisms with these gene changes will die of sooner than those without, and so their genes will fade from the genepool. So what we are today is the result of several billion mutations adding to our DNA.
Sure, the rules of evolution have changed today, with modern science and medicine, where we don't constantly live in threat of animal predators e.t.c, but evolution still occurs, and survival of the fittest still occurs as well (for example miscarriages can be caused by bad mutations).
[QUOTE=Mindtwistah;26392040]Actually, species are evolving each day. And what "structure" are you referring too? The only structure of evolution is survival of the fittest gene. Random mutations occur every time a cell divides as it makes mistakes in copying its DNA, however in 99% of the times those mutations are just extra proteins that don't do anything, but when mutations do affect your genes in a significant way your cells change, thus changing the organism. Organisms can sometimes also trigger mutations through cellular processes to adapt to the surroundings. It can be everything from an immunity against a virus, change of brain patterns to an extra nose or whiter skin, and also negative changes such as genetic diseases or things that will slow you down in your environment (like slower legs in a predator-filled jungle). The negative changes are weeded out through survival of the fittest, as the organisms with these gene changes will die of sooner than those without, and so their genes will fade from the genepool. So what we are today is the result of several billion mutations adding to our DNA.
Sure, the rules of evolution have changed today, with modern science and medicine, where we don't constantly live in threat of animal predators e.t.c, but evolution still occurs, and survival of the fittest still occurs as well (for example miscarriages can be caused by bad mutations).[/QUOTE]
The rules of evolution haven't changed at all.
[QUOTE=Mindtwistah;26358285]Religion gives you easy to deal with-answers, science gives you the truth (that you have to work hard for to achieve). People prefer to stick with religion.[/QUOTE]
Science tells you nothing about philosophy. People have this unreasoned idea that science can give you moral answers. It won't because science and philosophy don't have an overlap because one deals with the workings of the world, the other deals with the workings of the mind.
[editline]30th November 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mindtwistah;26361749]For as long as the brainwashing of children will continue, and that will occur as long as there are religious parents. So we're kinda stuck in a bad loop.
All we can hope for is that science will one day triumph over ignorance. It's happening very slowly now though, even in the era of logic and science the majority of people choose to believe in fairytales rather than the truth. Religion will still be here for at least another 100-200 years.[/QUOTE]
Brainwashing is a common term used when one side disagrees with the beliefs being taught by another group. To Christians, Atheist parents would be 'brainwashing' their kids as well by telling them what to believe and why.
To state again, science isn't going to tell you anything about philosophy, so to say that science will triumph over philosophy is rather nonsensical. It is likely that you're going to argue that religion is not a philosophy.
[QUOTE=Pepin;26398552]Science tells you nothing about philosophy. People have this unreasoned idea that science can give you moral answers. It won't because science and philosophy don't have an overlap because one deals with the workings of the world, the other deals with the workings of the mind.
[editline]30th November 2010[/editline]
Brainwashing is a common term used when one side disagrees with the beliefs being taught by another group. To Christians, Atheist parents would be 'brainwashing' their kids as well by telling them what to believe and why.
To state again, science isn't going to tell you anything about philosophy, so to say that science will triumph over philosophy is rather nonsensical. It is likely that you're going to argue that religion is not a philosophy.[/QUOTE]
No, science isn't going to tell you about morality as morality is strictly man-made and not a universal or scientific rule, but you don't need religion to know morality.
And brainwashing is the proper term, as they manipulate the child's trust in his parents in order to stuff him/her with religious lies, and once you tell someone a lie enough times he/she will start believing it. If you started preaching religion to an adult man he'd most likely think you were insane, but when you preach religion to a little boy he will listen with interest because you're an adult and he trusts you. It's no coincidence that for example children born in the US usually turn out to be Christian, children born in the middle east usually turn out to be Muslim e.t.c.
I'm not saying all religious parents preach and fill their children's minds with religious texts, but a majority do, and that's how religion lives on.
And I don't see how atheists can be brainwashing parents. Atheist is not a faith, it's a lack of faith. They go by things that are scientifically proven, they assume that what's logical is true, so they aren't preaching with religious texts about a wizard in the sky, they're telling you about science, no different from what you learn in school. Sure, maybe there are some "extremist atheists" parents who brainwash their kids to hate all religions or whatever, but surely you can see that atheism has much less "brainwash-material" than religion.
[QUOTE=Meader;26397498]The rules of evolution haven't changed at all.[/QUOTE]
Well, perhaps I phrased it wrong. The "fittest" in survival of the fittest is no longer completely the same as when we were running around in the woods killing animals with clubs and arrows.
[quote]No, science isn't going to tell you about morality as morality is strictly man-made and not a universal or scientific rule, but you don't need religion to know morality.[/quote]
You're clinging on to the word religion. Instead change religion to philosophy.
[quote]but you don't need philosophy to know morality.[/quote]
Now the statement is invalid. Now again, you can argue that religion isn't philosophy, but it simply is. I believe that in many ways, religion adheres to the Socratic belief that the very few are meant to be philosophers. If that is true, then how are people to learn basic philosophical conclusions? Religion is a great method and also sticks to the belief that The Good should be able to be easily explained, in which case most religions do through stories. It doesn't matter at all to me if you agree with the philosophy being taught.
[quote]And brainwashing is the proper term, as they manipulate the child's trust in his parents in order to stuff him/her with religious lies, and once you tell someone a lie enough times he/she will start believing it.[/quote]
Not to get all technical, but brainwashing implies that there was already a prior belief. In my opinion, it isn't possible to brainwash a child because they are a clean slate. They don't come predefined with particular views and thoughts. Even then, all you are saying is that you don't agree with what religious parents are teaching their children.
Coming from your viewpoint, religion is a huge lie and teaching it to 'innocent' children is a complete misuse of the parents power. The power in the statement for you comes from the fact that you see religion to be the a terrible terrible thing. What you imply is to take the right of parent away to raise them up how they wish, and to instead force your own belief upon them. I find this to be pretty similar to many different movements, for example: this whole movement to stop parents from taking their kids to fast food restaurants. The group believes that the parents are exploiting their kids into thinking that eating fast-food is completely alright and that is leading them down a completely downhill road. I don't think you're going to see the correlation though. But anyway, I see your whole argument as "I strongly disagree with X and don't like that parents teach their children it", and it always implies that X can never be good.
[quote]If you started preaching religion to an adult man he'd most likely think you were insane, but when you preach religion to a little boy he will listen with interest because you're an adult and he trusts you. It's no coincidence that for example children born in the US usually turn out to be Christian, children born in the middle east usually turn out to be Muslim e.t.c.
I'm not saying all religious parents preach and fill their children's minds with religious texts, but a majority do, and that's how religion lives on.[/quote]
The fact that many people become religious later in life easily challenges that statement. And again, woah, parents raise to mirror their own beliefs. Surprising, in their early years where children are most likely to imitate their parents, they do. In agnostic homes the children typically tend to be agnostic, in Atheistic homes the children tend to be Atheists, in Buddhist homes the children tend to be Buddhist. What is pretty interesting is to look at what happens to the kids when they get older and become teenagers and then adults, which is something not usually discussed with this whole "brainwashing kids claims".
Again, here's the theme of "I disagree with what these parents are teaching their kids, so it must be wrong". In a society where parents are allowed to raise their children the way they want, I don't have any quarrels with what morals or beliefs parents teach their kids. Some parents want to incite racist beliefs into their kids, it is their right to regardless if I disagree with it. They have just as much right to teach their kids what they want as I have as much right to teach my kids what I want. What say should I have in how parents raise their kids?
I keep getting this sense that all you're saying is "I strongly disagree with this and look at this people teaching this, and yes people grow up to be this, and I don't like it".
[quote]And I don't see how atheists can be brainwashing parents. Atheist is not a faith, it's a lack of faith. They go by things that are scientifically proven, they assume that what's logical is true, so they aren't preaching with religious texts about a wizard in the sky, they're telling you about science, no different from what you learn in school. Sure, maybe there are some "extremist atheists" parents who brainwash their kids to hate all religions or whatever, but surely you can see that atheism has much less "brainwash-material" than religion[/quote]
Because it seems that brainwashing is raising your kids to your own beliefs. Second sentence doesn't have anything to do with your argument. Then you go into some bit about of how what Atheistic parents teach their kids science. If an Atheist were to teach their beliefs to their child, they would not teach them science, they would teach them they don't believe there is a God. There is a strong correlation that Atheists seem to be strong supporters in science, but Atheism has nothing to do with science. Atheism is the belief that there is no God. It is not the belief that sciences proves there is no God, it is not the belief that science is awesome and should be taught to everyone and by the way there is no God, and it is not the belief that universal knowledge is the ultimate goal and that there is no God, it is simply that there is no God. Yes, people often try to explain the reason why they don't believe there is a God through reason and scientific principals, but that correlation is nonexistent with just that term. There are many many reason why someone would say they'd be Atheist, such as if there was a God he wouldn't allow such terrible stuff to occur, or that they don't agree with Christianity or some other religion, or maybe that they don't see a reason why a God would exist, or perhaps the classic "God was a way for the past to explain great mysteries", and the list could go on and on.
I'd suggest taking a big step back from all of your beliefs, and then evaluate everything from an observer's point of view. I'd say that you are far too connected to your beliefs and this is an issue that many people suffer from.
I didn't intend on going on for this long, but late at night I am always the habit of going on long rambles and doing things to keep me preoccupied.
By belonging to the answer, you are the living response the Ultimate question of life itself.
[editline]30th November 2010[/editline]
Also, Pepin you don't understand how god is used as a tool by people upon others.
No I do, but that doesn't at all mean that I can take that view and apply it to any and all applications of religion.
[QUOTE=Mindtwistah;26400029]Well, perhaps I phrased it wrong. The "fittest" in survival of the fittest is no longer completely the same as when we were running around in the woods killing animals with clubs and arrows.[/QUOTE]
I agree, and disagree. I think that as a species, we have taken such a higher place over all others that as things are right now (excluding outside things that nobody could predict happening) we are the fittest things to live in this environment. Now, given, this environment is changing, humans are changing, and that'll never stop.
I would definitely argue though, that the human mind is always changing and evolving. Instead of us having to have some physical change to protect us from the climates (grow hair all over our bodies to protect us from the cold) we have the ability to use our minds to solve these problems (Use something to cover our bodies, like the fur of another animal). So in this way I would argue that the human mind is the greatest adaptation made by nature.
[QUOTE=Meader;26406418]I agree, and disagree. I think that as a species, we have taken such a higher place over all others that as things are right now (excluding outside things that nobody could predict happening) we are the fittest things to live in this environment. Now, given, this environment is changing, humans are changing, and that'll never stop.
I would definitely argue though, that the human mind is always changing and evolving. Instead of us having to have some physical change to protect us from the climates (grow hair all over our bodies to protect us from the cold) we have the ability to use our minds to solve these problems (Use something to cover our bodies, like the fur of another animal). So in this way I would argue that the human mind is the greatest adaptation made by nature.[/QUOTE]
The universe doesn't revolve around our planet though. Can your species survive something like the Big Crunch, Heat Death, or maybe the Big Rip? We are far from perfect.
[QUOTE=Meader;26406418]I agree, and disagree. I think that as a species, we have taken such a higher place over all others that as things are right now (excluding outside things that nobody could predict happening) we are the fittest things to live in this environment. Now, given, this environment is changing, humans are changing, and that'll never stop.
I would definitely argue though, that the human mind is always changing and evolving. Instead of us having to have some physical change to protect us from the climates (grow hair all over our bodies to protect us from the cold) we have the ability to use our minds to solve these problems (Use something to cover our bodies, like the fur of another animal). So in this way I would argue that the human mind is the greatest adaptation made by nature.[/QUOTE]
Indeed, and don't you think shit like weapons and.. well countless of over things affects evolution?
Evolution sure as fuck didn't "expect" bombs to go off, waste getting spilled all over or whatever unnatural. And this is all due to our creativity, from good all the way till bad, and it seriously has manipulated/affected evolution, not necessarily killing it but.. something!
[QUOTE=Otsegolation;26421267]The universe doesn't revolve around our planet though. Can your species survive something like the Big Crunch, Heat Death, or maybe the Big Rip? We are far from perfect.[/QUOTE]
When did I say we were perfect? And my point wasn't that humans can survive anything, it was that humans are the best fit for our environment. Obviously we couldn't survive as we are now in other environments, we weren't made to do that.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;26427464]Indeed, and don't you think shit like weapons and.. well countless of over things affects evolution?
Evolution sure as fuck didn't "expect" bombs to go off, waste getting spilled all over or whatever unnatural. And this is all due to our creativity, from good all the way till bad, and it seriously has manipulated/affected evolution, not necessarily killing it but.. something![/QUOTE]
Evolution doesn't expect anything... it's not a logical, thinking being (but I do know what you're saying, and disagree). Would these things you explained have happened if humans hadn't done them? No. But humans were created by nature, we aren't above it, we are part of it. Anything we do to our climate, we will adapt to. If we for some reason can't adapt, we will die.
Science and engineering get mixed up way too much. Science is the study of the universe. Engineering is the application of what we know about the universe. They are connected, but they aren't at all interchangeable. Scientific discovery enables a lot of engineering, but it doesn't create anything itself.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
