Just got my books on Marxism and other political readings.
103 replies, posted
Mein Kampf interests me from a historical perspective, but I think you might be on a few FBI watch lists now.
Have fun reading Das Kapital. By which I mean, you're probably going to find it disgustingly boring and difficult.
The Communist Manifesto is a nice read though (I have that same copy). Marxist arguments are fantastic though. Generally speaking I have a lot of time for destructive philosophy, and political philosophy is no exception. If you're interested in Marxism I'd recommend David Harvey. I think I remember reading a while back that he actually runs 10 lectures on Das Kapital and that they're online. You won't want to read it straight though, trust me.
Next up: Conservatism!
[url]http://www.amazon.com/Leviathan-Oxford-Worlds-Classics-Thomas/dp/0199537283/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1318957698&sr=8-2[/url]
[url]http://www.amazon.com/Reflections-Revolution-France-Oxford-Classics/dp/0199539022/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1318957772&sr=8-3[/url]
[url]http://www.amazon.com/Voice-Liberal-Learning-Michael-Oakeshott/dp/0865973237/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_3[/url]
Oh that reminds me, if you find any other good reads on politics, post them here. I have a bookshelf devoted to them :v:
[editline]18th October 2011[/editline]
And Communism is a perfectly feasible option, and it's a pretty fucking good one at that, but I'm skeptical of whoever attempts it just because of how no one could do it right in the past. If we could convince the people that Equality is the best route, then we'd be set.
What, no Leviathan? No political literature collection is complete without Hobbes' masterpiece.
[QUOTE=pie_is_good;32838570]but his name is Marx?
dammit why do these things have to be ass-backwards.[/QUOTE]
His ideas spawned Marxism, but they didn't interpret what he said correctly. Marx lived long enough to see the rise of Marxism and pointed out that he wasn't a Marxist.
[editline]18th October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];32842897']
Well, he was a communist. He did write for years about his philosophy and participated in politics through the Workingmens' Association.
[/QUOTE]
He was actually a socialist. He believed that stateless communism would naturally follow socialism after many years, but that SOCIALISM was the proper way to go at the time. He ran things like the communist party, but they really shared much more in common with socialism.
Forcing stateless communism or attempting to pursue stateless communism as a direct goal was a ridiculous idea to him. Stateless communism was about freedom of the people and equality and has virtually nothing in common with what we call communism today.
He also believed that capitalism would naturally gravitate slowly towards socialism. As we have seen with Europe and, to a slightly lesser extent, the United States, his theory is proving to be correct. Whether that will, in hundreds of years down the line, produce a stateless communist society, I do not know.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;32846132]Oh that reminds me, if you find any other good reads on politics, post them here. I have a bookshelf devoted to them :v:
[editline]18th October 2011[/editline]
And Communism is a perfectly feasible option, and it's a pretty fucking good one at that, but I'm skeptical of whoever attempts it just because of how no one could do it right in the past. If we could convince the people that Equality is the best route, then we'd be set.[/QUOTE]
What about people who want to excel?
Communism seems like a cute idea but I see no way for it to be safely and fairly enforced.
I also don't see why everyone should be equal. Humans aren't equal. Some people are lazy and untalented, some people are hard working and inventive.
I don't see why my efforts of hard work and all the stress I go through should work in the benefit of someone who just wants to sit around all day.
If I wanted to share my wealth I'd contribute to charity.
Not to mention it's pretty tough to take most "communists" seriously nowadays considering how much of a fashion statement being a socialist or communist is.
Are you now an expert on world politics and literature?
I've always been fairly into World Politics and Literature about it, so I'll try to get there just so one day, I can hunt you down, smack you in the face with "The Courtier", and say "Yeah, I fucking am".
But until then, sadly not.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;32846712]
I don't see why my efforts of hard work and all the stress I go through should work in the benefit of someone who just wants to sit around all day.
If I wanted to share my wealth I'd contribute to charity.
[/QUOTE]
Well how about we let everyone in the third world rely on people's inclination towards charitable donations.
That'll turn out fine.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;32846712]What about people who want to excel?
Communism seems like a cute idea but I see no way for it to be safely and fairly enforced.
I also don't see why everyone should be equal. Humans aren't equal. Some people are lazy and untalented, some people are hard working and inventive.
I don't see why my efforts of hard work and all the stress I go through should work in the benefit of someone who just wants to sit around all day.
If I wanted to share my wealth I'd contribute to charity.
Not to mention it's pretty tough to take most "communists" seriously nowadays considering how much of a fashion statement being a socialist or communist is.[/QUOTE]
Well if too many people are doing bad work, the general Salary would decrease, meaning less for the people. It evens itself out.
[QUOTE=WhatTheKlent;32846829]Well how about we let everyone in the third world rely on people's inclination towards charitable donations.
That'll turn out fine.[/QUOTE]
What happens in third world countries is terrible, but I don't think enforcing communism in your first world country is going to help distribute your wealth all the way to Africa.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;32846837]Well if too many people are doing bad work, the general Salary would decrease, meaning less for the people. It evens itself out.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, then everyone gets to live like shit.
It evens out.
Why do I deserve to work so that others can be paid?
Also, people who take Communism as a fashion statement are normally kids who want to look edgy (LOL SOVIET UNION L00K!) or have played Call of Duty (Post MW1).
[QUOTE=Kopimi;32846867]What happens in third world countries is terrible, but I don't think enforcing communism in your first world country is going to help distribute your wealth all the way to Africa.
[/QUOTE]
It is terrible but as long as there is nothing else but the pittance given as charity, that's never going to change.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;32846867]
Yeah, then everyone gets to live like shit.
It evens out.
[/QUOTE]
Because everyone will just stop working and live like animals in that situation.
[QUOTE=WhatTheKlent;32846879]Because we can all see how well that works at the moment.[/QUOTE]
How much money have you donated to charity White Knight Klent?
And who are you to decide that it's my obligation to use money I earned to help people in the third world?
Once again, by the way, communism in your nation won't go towards helping people in the third world, so I don't see why you're using third world suffering as an argument for communism.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;32846867]What happens in third world countries is terrible, but I don't think enforcing communism in your first world country is going to help distribute your wealth all the way to Africa.
Yeah, then everyone gets to live like shit.
It evens out.[/QUOTE]
No one wants to live like shit, so they'll actually work.
[QUOTE=WhatTheKlent;32846879]It is terrible but as long as there is nothing else but the pittance given as charity, that's never going to change.
Because everyone will just stop working and live like animals in that situation.[/QUOTE]
Communism won't help the third world, stop using this as an argument.
You say that as if it's not plausible.
The hard working will continue to work, and the weak will continue to feed.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;32846941]No one wants to live like shit, so they'll actually work.[/QUOTE]
You put too much faith in those that are given free money.
And I still don't see why I'm obligated to work for the good of other people that I don't know or care for.
If someone wants to live in a communist/socialist state, I'm completely understanding and I have no issue with it,
but when people try to impose communism/socialism on the place I live, it means that my money gets taken away, which is something I don't really like.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;32846960]Communism won't help the third world, stop using this as an argument.
You say that as if it's not plausible.
The hard working will continue to work, and the weak will continue to feed.[/QUOTE]
Eventually, the people will become discontent with how others aren't working, and they'll say "We're gonna stop until you learn to fucking do your part". It's a civil Revolution, almost.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;32846904]How much money have you donated to charity White Knight Klent?
[/QUOTE]
My own hypocrisy is irrelevant, and doesn't really change my point.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;32846904]
And who are you to decide that it's my obligation to use money I earned to help people in the third world?
Once again, by the way, communism in your nation won't go towards helping people in the third world, so I don't see why you're using third world suffering as an argument for communism.[/QUOTE]
It is your obligation to help your fellow man, as it is mine. I can't force you to but you haven't argued that it isn't.
My point on the suffering in the third world was that charity alone doesn't solve everything.
(Sorry about the edit in the last post by the way, I thought my first post didn't go up)
[QUOTE=Kopimi;32846960]
You put too much faith in those that are given free money.
[/QUOTE]
I don't think you quite understand what socialism is.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;32846960]
And I still don't see why I'm obligated to work for the good of other people that I don't know or care for.
[/QUOTE]
So it's okay to let someone unwittingly walk in front of a bus if you don't know them?
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;32846982]Eventually, the people will become discontent with how others aren't working, and they'll say "We're gonna stop until you learn to fucking do your part". It's a civil Revolution, almost.[/QUOTE]
Says who?
You really think people that are working to feed their families are just going to stop in protest of the fact that there are people leeching off the system?
And is that really an "ideal society", where a revolution happens every time the lazy stop working?
[editline]18th October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=WhatTheKlent;32847006][b]My own hypocrisy is irrelevant, and doesn't really change my point.[/b]
It is your obligation to help your fellow man, as it is mine. I can't force you to but you haven't argued that it isn't.
My point on the suffering in the third world was that charity alone doesn't solve everything.
(Sorry about the edit in the last post by the way, I thought my first post didn't go up)[/QUOTE]
Your point may or may not be valid, but the fact that you're being a hypocrite and calling for me to submit to forced charity when you yourself haven't contributed anything makes it hard to take you seriously on any moral standings.
Who are you to say it's my obligation to help my fellow man?
And no, charity won't solve everything, but like I said twice (?) before, [i]communism wont either[/i]
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;32846982]Eventually, the people will become discontent with how others aren't working, and they'll say "We're gonna stop until you learn to fucking do your part". It's a civil Revolution, almost.[/QUOTE]
But then when that's happening now the leftists on this forum call them rich bigots or whatever.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;32847015]
Your point may or may not be valid, but the fact that you're being a hypocrite and calling for me to submit to forced charity when you yourself haven't contributed anything makes it hard to take you seriously on any moral standings.[/QUOTE]
Don't take me seriously, take the point I'm making seriously.
You aren't even considering whether or not it's valid before dismissing it.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;32847015]
Who are you to say it's my obligation to help my fellow man?
And no, charity won't solve everything, but like I said twice (?) before, [i]communism wont either[/i][/QUOTE]
I never said communism would solve everything, you attempted to justify the current economic system by saying people can give charitably, I'm just saying you can't rely on charity to solve the worlds problems.
[QUOTE=WhatTheKlent;32847138]Don't take me seriously, take the point I'm making seriously.
I never said communism would solve everything, you attempted to justify the current economic system by saying people can give charity, I'm just saying you can't rely on charity to solve the worlds problems.[/QUOTE]
I didn't justify it with the idea of charity, I said that if I felt like giving people money, I would.
I don't need a government to forcefully take away my money and redistribute it.
You're basically saying that people won't contribute enough on their own accord to properly help out, so we need to force them to give us their money so we can give it to people who need it, and what I'm asking is what gives you the right to decide you're going to take away other people's earned money so that you can give it away and feel like you did something morally correct?
Like I pointed out before, the only way Communism is plausible is if we convince the Masses that Equality was the best route.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;32847170]I didn't justify it with the idea of charity, I said that if I felt like giving people money, I would.
[/QUOTE]
You said it as if to make up for the fact you aren't compelled to.
And if everyone wanted to share their wealth, we wouldn't need to discuss this.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;32847221]Like I pointed out before, the only way Communism is plausible is if we convince the Masses that Equality was the best route.[/QUOTE]
I find the fact that people need convincing unsettling.
[QUOTE=WhatTheKlent;32847223]You said it as if to make up for the fact you aren't compelled to.[/QUOTE]
what
Do I really need to provide justification for the fact that I'm not compelled to donate my money to people?
My point was that it's not the government's business to tell you that you need to be giving people charity, and making you do it by force.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;32847221]Like I pointed out before, the only way Communism is plausible is if we convince the Masses that Equality was the best route.[/QUOTE]
Would communism really be necessary if people thought equality was the best route?
If everyone was content with giving their money away, they'd be doing it themselves.
Communism just forces you to do it because they know that [b]you dont want to[/b]
And [b]why[/b] is equality the best route?
I still don't understand the claim that all of us are equals.
Some of us contribute much more to society than others, why should we all be treated the same?
mein kampf!
Holy crap you're allowed to sell that book?
I'd like to read it, but only to better understand hitler's mentality.
It's always seemed to me that hitler based a lot of his warfare tactics on pretty much nothing. Disregarded history, such as napoleons failure etc. and just in general was a really off the wall dude.
I would also recommend 1984 and Brave New World (although I find 1984 to be better).
[QUOTE=Stupideye;32847354]I would also recommend 1984 and Brave New World (although I find 1984 to be better).[/QUOTE]They are fictional stories, not political documents.
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