• Philosophy Thread - deeeeeeep bro
    999 replies, posted
I respect people who don't believe in the cencept of a soul, but I chose to believe in it because it makes live far more colourful and exciting for me. Without the concept of my own soul life would be too technical and dull for me. Creating music for example would be mathematical, routin and memorysing instead of creativity, intention and passion. I still love the technical side of my live, but without the spiritual I would be missing out.
"Carl Marx and Santa is the same dude"
[QUOTE=The_Volcom;38329356]I respect people who don't believe in the cencept of a soul, but I chose to believe in it because it makes live far more colourful and exciting for me. Without the concept of my own soul life would be too technical and dull for me. Creating music for example would be mathematical, routin and memorysing instead of creativity, intention and passion. I still love the technical side of my live, but without the spiritual I would be missing out.[/QUOTE] How come you can't have spiritual experiences in life without the notion of a soul? You're still having the same emotional reactions and the same subconscious inclinations in life whether the evidence weighed in the existence of a soul is considered as false or true.
It is a matter of connection for me. "emotional reaction" and "subconcious inclinations" are the technical term is spoke about. I could not connect to things as deep as I do, if would see emotions only as chemical reactions in my brain. It would take away the magic baby.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;38324311]I've never seen any decent evidence for a soul, so I tend not to believe it exists. I haven't seen anything so far that contradicts the idea that consciousness is just a thing that arises as a result of how the particles that make up a brain and body are arranged and moving, and that seems like the most sensible and simple explanation to me so far.[/QUOTE] consciousness, a soul, it's all semantics.
[QUOTE=The_Volcom;38330014]It is a matter of connection for me. "emotional reaction" and "subconcious inclinations" are the technical term is spoke about. I could not connect to things as deep as I do, if would see emotions only as chemical reactions in my brain. It would take away the magic baby.[/QUOTE] I respect your beliefs brother. For me, chemical, physical, mathematical, astronomical, cosmological and quantum reactions is my spirituality. I live in a world of pure objectivity and embrace it with love.
[QUOTE=Memnoth;38330282]I respect your beliefs brother. For me, chemical, physical, mathematical, astronomical, cosmological and quantum reactions is my spirituality. I live in a world of pure objectivity and embrace it with love.[/QUOTE] We live in the Same World mate. Science in general is my spirituality I would say. There is nothing that interests me more than understanding this universe, this whole reality my consciousness perceives. Its so magical. Life and everything is a wonder and we have so much luck to experience all of this.
[QUOTE=NeoSeeker;38330026]consciousness, a soul, it's all semantics.[/QUOTE] Not really, because a consciousness as I understand it would be the same if you had two identical human bodies. It's a higher-order phenomenon that emerges as a result of basic physical processes. You're implying that the existence of a unique soul per person means two physically identical people couldn't be the same. So they can't be the same thing.
technically they'd be the same until the moment they become separate. then they are two unique individuals. even if they have all the traits, memories and everything else of each other as soon as the twin is created or they are both created their paths will branch, turning them into separate people. unless of course you think identical twins are the same person more than one of a person cannot exist at a time. in essence we are talking about the same thing. just i speculate the shit out of it while you just sit there with your objective hypothesis. i myself am not confirming or denying anything. just thinking. honestly what happens after i die isn't particularly important to me because nothing will change it or what happens after. also it's a part of life as well, just by being born i respect the fact that because of it, i deserve to die. though it is fun to speculate.
If you had an exact clone made out of you just like that, you two would just.. live on. You wouldn't just magically disappear, in fact it wouldn't really change anything except that you would probably be freaked out by your clone. So, the clone could go to places where the original dude does not. Basically, they are the same initially when cloned, but from that moment they live their separate lives as separate persons, growing to be slightly different persons.
[QUOTE=NeoSeeker;38332582]technically they'd be the same until the moment they become separate. then they are two unique individuals. even if they have all the traits, memories and everything else of each other as soon as the twin is created or they are both created their paths will branch, turning them into separate people. unless of course you think identical twins are the same person[/QUOTE] That's a good and important line of reasoning that I've thought about before but then it opens up a bunch of questions about personhood. Is a person determined just by a body and a mind or is it also determined also by everything in the environment that affects a person and makes them act the way they do? Where, then, does the 'person' end? You said two of the same person can't exist at a time but you also said two identical bodies would be the same person until they their different environments change their actions, but doesn't that mean two of the same person can exist momentarily? What about if we put them both in identical jail cells, give them identical foods, etc. Wouldn't they act the same? [QUOTE=NeoSeeker;38332582]more than one of a person cannot exist at a time.[/QUOTE] I don't see why not. Imagine two completely identical universes with the same person in them. They'd act exactly the same their whole lives. If you don't like the idea of introducing multiple universes, imagine one universe containing identical clumps of matter, like a planet, with an identical person on each one, far enough apart that they never interact with each other for their entire lifetimes.
well there's that simple fundamental principle that one object occupying a space cannot occupy any of the space of another object, unless high velocities are introduced, but i digress... they are two separate entities in the world, even if they were to act the same they are separate therefor not the same person. i don't care if what i just said conflicts with anything else i may have said before hand either, this isn't a debate, it's a formation of ideas. i'm genuinely intrigued to see what you have to say about what is contained in the former part of this post.
[QUOTE=Memnoth;38330282]I respect your beliefs brother. For me, chemical, physical, mathematical, astronomical, cosmological and quantum reactions is my spirituality. I live in a world of pure objectivity and embrace it with love.[/QUOTE] Love is the answer brother :D
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;38331160]Not really, because a consciousness as I understand it would be the same if you had two identical human bodies. It's a higher-order phenomenon that emerges as a result of basic physical processes. You're implying that the existence of a unique soul per person means two physically identical people couldn't be the same. So they can't be the same thing.[/quote] All consciousness is the same, but it's bound to the matter that processes it even an exact clone would still have a "different" consciousness for that reason, due to the fact that it's a different bunch of matter, even if arranged in the same way at least that's my understanding of it you'd be the same person, tap into the same thoughts, but you'd both be a different experience and therefor seperate
So while I was high, I was thinking: "When everyone were dead, there wouldn't be anyone to think about it..." And then I realized I am fully material and all that I think, is only a chemical function in the brain and we are the slaves of our brain and therefore we don't exist like we feel we do. We are only impulses from the brain. And then I flipped out and got a MAJOR panic attack that later on after few hours evolved into agorophobia...
[QUOTE=Maku220;38342184]So while I was high, I was thinking: "When everyone were dead, there wouldn't be anyone to think about it..." And then I realized I am fully material and all that I think, is only a chemical function in the brain and we are the slaves of our brain and therefore we don't exist like we feel we do. We are only impulses from the brain. And then I flipped out and got a MAJOR panic attack that later on after few hours evolved into agorophobia...[/QUOTE] Go even deeper and realize that we are only interacting particles so small we can't even see them with our biggest, shiniest equipment. I guess it's kind of scary, but I find it fucking awesome.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;38334437]I don't see why not. Imagine two completely identical universes with the same person in them. They'd act exactly the same their whole lives. If you don't like the idea of introducing multiple universes, imagine one universe containing identical clumps of matter, like a planet, with an identical person on each one, far enough apart that they never interact with each other for their entire lifetimes.[/QUOTE] But it would still be two different universes. If it wasn't, it would be the same persons. They would have same appearance and so on, but they would none theless live in another dimension. If dude A lives in world A, and dude B lives in world B, dude A could only live in world B, if he was dude B, and not dude A. Imagine if universes where time instead. Each world is frozen in a pose, the only thing that moves is time, which moves between the worlds, with the speed of time, that's why time is different for a man on earth, and a man on a jouney outside the orbit. fx: Dude A is on earth from he is born til he dies at an age of 75. Dude B is born into a space shuttle, and is launched into space. He returns after 75 years, but he has the appearance of a 25 year old or so. Well, the thing I was trying to say is, you can exist at multiple times in life, but you can't at once. YOu would be at a different place, so it wouldn't be you, unless you were at your presise position, but then you would exist within and without of yourself, and you can't, because then it would be you again, and not someone else. Or so I think?
[QUOTE=bertilml;38344490]But it would still be two different universes. If it wasn't, it would be the same persons. They would have same appearance and so on, but they would none theless live in another dimension.[/QUOTE] I think you missed the point of what I was saying. They're most certainly in the same universe, they're just far enough away that a light beam can't travel between them until they've both died.
im pretty sure you were talking about parallel universes or something like that..
[QUOTE=NeoSeeker;38345866]im pretty sure you were talking about parallel universes or something like that..[/QUOTE] I did, and then gave an alternate example that doesn't need them: [QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;38334437]If you don't like the idea of introducing multiple universes, imagine one universe containing identical clumps of matter, like a planet, with an identical person on each one, far enough apart that they never interact with each other for their entire lifetimes.[/QUOTE]
if they are not occupying the same space i'm sorry to say they're not the same person as far as we know. even if they figuratively are the same person. literally they are two separate people. [editline]6th November 2012[/editline] we don't live in the figurative, we live in the literal. btw
I don't see how where they are creates any distinction. Particles of the same type are all interchangeable as far as we know, and two systems that are physically identical are essentially the same system. What difference does location make if you can draw a box around each person and inside that box the exact same thing happens to each one? Why do you need a concept of a soul if you agree that two physically identical people will act the same way? What's the point in calling two identical systems in different locations different systems if they act in exactly the same way? [editline]6th November 2012[/editline] Your post came off as really snide btw
so if two stars are born at the same time under the same conditions they're both the same star?
I don't even see the same time as being a necessary condition. I think if two identical arrangements of matter and fields exist for some duration of time then they are the same system. If I was to show you a video of each one and they were identical you wouldn't be able to point at one or the other and go "that one happened first." When they occur doesn't really make any physical difference. (Plus in relativity there are situations in which determining which occurred first is impossible)
that's, utterly ridiculous. this has officially become utterly ridiculous... lol [editline]6th November 2012[/editline] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVYA-WS56J8[/media]
Since the two people are identical, couldn't you derive the actions of one of them in a given situation by the actions of the other? Like, punch one of them in the face and they punch you back, then you know not to punch the other one in the face? That's an incredibly stupid example but it'd be kind of neat to know the reaction of one person based off the reaction of another.
[QUOTE=Muff Pi;38346596]Since the two people are identical, couldn't you derive the actions of one of them in a given situation by the actions of the other? Like, punch one of them in the face and they punch you back, then you know not to punch the other one in the face? That's an incredibly stupid example but it'd be kind of neat to know the reaction of one person based off the reaction of another.[/QUOTE] It'd only work for one event, I guess. [editline]7th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=NeoSeeker;38346513]that's, [B]utterly ridiculous[/B]. this has officially become utterly ridiculous... lol [editline]6th November 2012[/editline] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVYA-WS56J8[/media][/QUOTE] welcome to the universe, please leave your preconceptions at the door [editline]7th November 2012[/editline] Although I'm still not sure which one of you guys I agree with
[i]The water drips from well of shame, spilling forth through these words of blame. All they see is nothing, they just hear the silence of the sin, the echoes in the well...[/i]
[QUOTE=Faren;38347976] welcome to the universe, please leave your preconceptions at the door[/QUOTE] no he just basically said two stars born the same way are both the same star even though they exist separate from one another.
Okay. So what if the weed was actually smoking us?
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