• Philosophy Thread - deeeeeeep bro
    999 replies, posted
so we get the lesser of two evils thanks first past the post voting system
[QUOTE=NeoSeeker;38349386]no he just basically said two stars born the same way are both the same star even though they exist separate from one another.[/QUOTE] But they're physically indistinguishable. If poke one and then poke the other the same way, the same thing is going to result. I don't see the point in calling them different if they're identical systems, just like I don't see why you're arguing that two separate souls have to exist for two people who are precisely the same physically. [editline]6th November 2012[/editline] If I draw a particle oscillating in a potential well on one sheet of paper, and I draw the same particle in the same potential on another, we understand that they're the same system. They act in exact in the same way, there's no physical distinction. What difference does it make when they exist or where if they never interact?
it doesn't even come back around dude. that is simply utterly ridiculous unless you're ridiculously high. two stars occupying two separate spaces are two separate stars.
I'm not talking about two very similar stars, I'm talking about two stars which are particle-for-particle exactly identical to each other. [editline]6th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=NeoSeeker;38351388]it doesn't even come back around dude. that is simply utterly ridiculous unless you're ridiculously high. two stars occupying two separate spaces are two separate stars.[/QUOTE] Yeah no it's not really. [editline]6th November 2012[/editline] Are you done making arguments and you're just going to scream that it's ridiculous because you can just go do something else, it'd be a lot simpler
i'm going to fuck your mind entropy. it'll take a while but if you get your head around it, yeah.
Do you even know what entropy is
oh you're just trolling me. okay then... fucking automerge. just think about it. it's apart of the idea, and honestly you're not really worth the time to be talking to because you just said...
[QUOTE=NeoSeeker;38351444]oh you're just trolling me. okay then...[/QUOTE] What are you talking about How is entropy relevant [editline]6th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=NeoSeeker;38351444]fucking automerge. just think about it. it's apart of the idea, and honestly you're not really worth the time to be talking to because you just said...[/QUOTE] Entropy is the loss of the ability to do useful work over time. What does that have to do with it? The entropies of both systems will be the same since they're the same system.
[B]BECAUSE IF BOTH OF THE STARS WERE TO BE HURDLED AT YOU AT THE SAME TIME THERE'D BE TWO STARS INSTEAD OF ONE[/B] [editline]7th November 2012[/editline] two stars exist, not one, as in singular.
[QUOTE=NeoSeeker;38351531][B]BECAUSE IF BOTH OF THE STARS WERE TO BE HURDLED AT YOU AT THE SAME TIME THERE'D BE TWO STARS INSTEAD OF ONE[/B] [editline]7th November 2012[/editline] two stars exist, not one, as in singular.[/QUOTE] Big deal. How is that relevant? What does that have to do with the original argument? If I have a guy who is cloned and living in the same environment as his clone who is very far away, and I ask, "Are you two people, or one," he's gonna say, "I'm one person." But it doesn't matter what he thinks. The other guys says the same thing. Just because they don't feel like they control the other one doesn't mean they don't possess the same consciousness. They're physically indistinguishable. I see no reason to call them separate entities as long as they're not in each other's observable universes.
the whole vibe i'm getting is a bunch of techno babble mixed in, completely dissonantly, with some philosophical "if a tree falls in the woods and noones around to see it did it really fall" shit tossed in. [editline]7th November 2012[/editline] in other words you're fundamentally contradicting yourself.
It's a semantic distinction, whether you call them two things or one thing, but the part that's relevant to the soul argument is that the two people are identical. If you do something to one and do the same thing to the other, they'll react exactly the same. Also, what does entropy have to do with it? You still haven't explained? [editline]6th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=NeoSeeker;38351578]the whole vibe i'm getting is a bunch of techno babble mixed in, completely dissonantly, with some philosophical "if a tree falls in the woods and noones around to see it did it really fall" shit tossed in.[/QUOTE] Basically you're not following my argument, therefore I'm wrong? [QUOTE=NeoSeeker;38351578]in other words you're fundamentally contradicting yourself.[/QUOTE] Sorry, where's the contradiction?
no the two dialogs are not in the same ballpark, league or even sport. [editline]7th November 2012[/editline] and you're seriously taking the piss out of all of it.
I personally think you're both trying to argue over two completely different ideas. NeoSeeker's trying to argue that the fact there are two entities (regardless that they are particle-for-particle the exact same entity) makes them seperate entities and Johnny is trying to argue that the fact that they are exactly the same existing in different settings is irrelevant to the fact that they are the same entity. It all comes down to the way in which you perceive the entity and the perception of each entities existence.
[QUOTE=Arkay;38351679]I personally think you're both trying to argue over two completely different ideas. NeoSeeker's trying to argue that the fact there are two entities (regardless that they are particle-for-particle the exact same entity) makes them seperate entities and Johnny is trying to argue that the fact that they are exactly the same existing in different settings is irrelevant to the fact that they are the same entity. It all comes down to the way in which you perceive the entity and the perception of each entities existence.[/QUOTE] It really is pretty much a semantic argument and he thinks my position is ridiculous. I don't think his position is ridiculous, I just think acting like two particles in the same universe are meaningfully distinct is not necessary. It's reasonable if you have something like a gas, and all the particles are interacting, but if you have systems that are out of each other's observable universes for the period of time you're concerned with, for all practical purposes they may not even be in the same universe. They'll never interact.
testy testy aren't you... [editline]7th November 2012[/editline] you knew this entire time this wasn't going anywere didn't you? you would have had to because i said i'm not arguing over semantics or something like that back a ways.
What do you mean, not going anywhere? This is philosophy discussion and I'm talking about my philosophy, where is it supposed to go?
hahaha you lil devil
[QUOTE=NeoSeeker;38351736]you knew this entire time this wasn't going anywere didn't you? you would have had to because i said i'm not arguing over semantics or something like that back a ways.[/QUOTE] I said that the difference between a soul and a consciousness is not semantics. Whether or not two physically identical, spacelike separated systems are "separate" is pretty much semantics.
i love you dude
Well, I guess the difference between a soul and a consciousness could be semantics, but it's not to me, because I think one exists and the other doesn't. [editline]7th November 2012[/editline] I love you too, let's run away together.
Hurp durp smoke weed hurp durp
I am going to propose another argument... I saw a seagull sitting on my pontoon on the river earlier today whilst talking with my mother, and I returned an hour and a half later with it sitting in the same exact position, and she said it hadn't moved at all. Do animals with a ~lesser~ intelligence than humans have a conscious perception of the passing of time?
[QUOTE=Arkay;38351877]I am going to propose another argument... I saw a seagull sitting on my pontoon on the river earlier today whilst talking with my mother, and I returned an hour and a half later with it sitting in the same exact position, and she said it hadn't moved at all. Do animals with a ~lesser~ intelligence than humans have a conscious perception of the passing of time?[/QUOTE] Sometimes I wonder where the line is for attributing consciousness to an animal. What is a mind like that you would consider baaarely not conscious or baaarely conscious.
I don't see why we should be so special. As far as I can reason, an animal would need to have some form of consciousness in order to be able to interpret sensory information I mean something like a bacterium clearly doesn't have a consciousness because it has no central nervous system, it responds to its environment on a fairly basic chemical level whereas something like a seagull would have to be able to interpret what it sees in order to react accordingly, imo A really good book on the "line" between humans and other animals is [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadows_of_Forgotten_Ancestors_(book)"]Shadows of Our Forgotten Ancestors[/URL], although it focuses a lot on chimpanzees (mostly because that's where the so called "line" is at it's wuzziest)
i think the only reason the seagull would move would be if it had a reason related to survival to do so. i'm sure if the seagull was hungry or thirsty it would fly away to get some water or food, if a predator approached it'd fly away to avoid the predator. maybe simple brained animals don't have a sense of time per se but because of their limited memory, more of a series of events triggering actions. high as shit so i dunno how much sense this makes..
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;38345488]I think you missed the point of what I was saying. They're most certainly in the same universe, they're just far enough away that a light beam can't travel between them until they've both died.[/QUOTE] But they would be at too different places in the universe at all time, and therefore they couldn't be the same. If A is a light-lifetime away from B, he couldn't be B, unless they are in a world made of some kind of anti/fansyword -matter...
Sure they're the same. Translate and rotate your coordinate system through spacetime and you can make one indistinguishable from the other. Run tests and you won't be able to tell them apart.
i feel any drug worth doing should not be sold, but shared freely within each other.
[QUOTE=MRApples7;38349512]Okay. So what if the weed was actually smoking us?[/QUOTE] woaaaaah dude [editline]8th November 2012[/editline] I got so much to say about this whole consciousness discussion but I'm too high to type it all out. Gonna study cognitive science next year if all goes according to the plan :)
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