• The Zeitgeist movement is pointless
    136 replies, posted
[QUOTE=DrMortician;28077529]Everything is fine, it's all just bullshit ignore what you're hearing and return to your duties. The currency system is broke and is being exploited to the point of being a scam. It's not a big problem to fix at all, it's just getting people to pull out a calculator and think for a minute.[/QUOTE] It's broke, but it's broken by greed and destructive self service. It's not really a matter of calculations. [QUOTE=DrMortician;28077529]No politics, no conspiracies, just a bunch of ignorant people fucking themselves and everyone else over big time.[/QUOTE] There isn't a big conspiracy plot like fluoride in the drinking water. And I wouldn't say business leaders are ignorant.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;28077620] There isn't a big conspiracy plot like fluoride in the drinking water. And I wouldn't say business leaders are ignorant.[/QUOTE] If they're not ignorant to it, then you're calling it a conspiracy.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;28072284] [b]The governments are not their to betray the people, and do not lie to the people.[/b][/QUOTE] Hahah oh man, I think you might actually believe that.
What a lot of people forget is that often there are grains of truth in any conspiracy theory. Did you know that if you found a cure to aids, you are not legally obliged to release that information? You could sell it to someone (say a pharmaceutical company that produces and makes billions off current AIDS treatments) and they could bury it forever. Now some people would say "THEY WOULD NEVER DO THAT" but when billions of dollars a year are at stake, you'd be surprised what people can do (or for that matter, what they have already done).
[QUOTE=FlakAttack;28077646]What a lot of people forget is that often there are grains of truth in any conspiracy theory. Did you know that if you found a cure to aids, you are not legally obliged to release that information? You could sell it to someone (say a pharmaceutical company that produces and makes billions off current AIDS treatments) and they could bury it forever. Now some people would say "THEY WOULD NEVER DO THAT" but when billions of dollars a year are at stake, you'd be surprised what people can do (or for that matter, what they have already done).[/QUOTE] Of course they would never do that, you're an insane commie for thinking they would! No one is in any sort of business to make money, they're just wanting to help their fellow man.
I dont believe in conspiracy theories but I like the idea of a resource based economy. In fact the creator of the movement doesn't put focus on conspiracy theories anymore. Its now about the idea of a new system rather then saying the government is evil and junk like that. [editline]15th February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=livelonger12;28072284]natural selection[/QUOTE] Are you saying that the systems that don't work will die horribly or something? I mean you cant just say are current system will somehow magically solve environmental change and greed one day and no one is going to pollute for no reason or anything like that.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;28072284]Peter Joseph, Jacque Fresco and their followers will never overthrow the current socio-economic structure of humanity -- we don't need that. The current economic paradigm is fine; it's adjusted by nature itself via capitalism and principle, natural selection; and it's sustained by a slight mix of socialism (e.g. via universal healthcare). The worst of this movement are the conspiracy films in which they attempt to "expose" the supposedly corrupt leaders behind the system -- a move that will never assist them. The governments are not their to betray the people, and do not lie to the people. The governments govern society to eliminate social and economic pathologies. That, and their anticipation of the monetary system for collapse -- this will not happen. Sure, it has its ups and downs, but the system is fine for our needs, and will eventually result in global sustainability (how about that? No poverty? Surely such a system must be removed!). In short, all these global and socio-economic conspiracy movements are dumb -- they're nothing more than paranoid agendas pushed by a small group or a single leader that is somewhat reflective of terrorism. I shall now proceed to my tinfoil house to eat my tinfoil pancakes![/QUOTE] The thing is our government is corrupt as fuck all this new world order stuff is true they are making a new currency for all of north america and that's just foreshadowing to be barrack obama and stepjhen harper drop the border so were all one country and they are doing this all without the peoples' consent and i don't want to be a stinkin' american
The world should be united under a military state, where the values of discipline, hierarchy, spirit, and will are important. We keep bickering and arguing and complaining about all sorts of silly shit, and we will never get into space and ensure the continuing survival of the human race.
Passivity and ignorance is cake for those in power.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;28078026]The world should be united under a military state, where the values of discipline, hierarchy, spirit, and will are important. We keep bickering and arguing and complaining about all sorts of silly shit, and we will never get into space and ensure the continuing survival of the human race.[/QUOTE] Welcome to the US of A Military industrial complex! Hear what millions of Iraqis have been raving about for the past decade!
I tried to get through the Zeitgeist documentary but I couldn't bring myself to do it. I was just waiting for the movie to enlighten me in some way, but it never did.
OP kind of just inserted that somehow capitalism is awesome and nothing else would work. Besides that it was him just saying most conspiracy theories are stupid. I would agree with him on the latter point though. [editline]15th February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Micr0;28078560]I tried to get through the Zeitgeist documentary but I couldn't bring myself to do it. I was just waiting for the movie to enlighten me in some way, but it never did.[/QUOTE] You watched it wrong. You are supposed to watch it upside down so that way the enlightenment reaches your brain faster.
Humans are greedy by nature and a resource-based economy isn't gonna change that. Working individually to put yourself ahead of your peers/competitors has always been the driving force behind evolution, which has gotten our race to where it is today. Adaptable as we are we might be able to change our ways and unite into a harmonic utopian society, but it's gonna take centuries and a lot more than some Zeitgeist propaganda to complete such a transformation after what thousands of years of social development in the opposite direction has made us.
[QUOTE=Micr0;28078560]I tried to get through the Zeitgeist documentary but I couldn't bring myself to do it. I was just waiting for the movie to enlighten me in some way, but it never did.[/QUOTE] You have to like numbers to get into it. If you aren't entertained by economic math, you're going to hate it, or completely fail to understand it.
[QUOTE=Im Crimson;28079076]Humans are greedy by nature and a resource-based economy isn't gonna change that. Working individually to put yourself ahead of your peers/competitors has always been the driving force behind evolution, which has gotten our race to where it is today. Adaptable as we are we might be able to change our ways and unite into a harmonic utopian society, but it's gonna take centuries and a lot more than some Zeitgeist propaganda to complete such a transformation after what thousands of years of social development in the opposite direction has made us.[/QUOTE] The human nature thing is weird. It just spits in the face of what we know about humans and what makes them act certain ways or behave. I mean you think people will steel or something if they could get something for free? its like having someone steel air or your drinking water. Sure I dont expect everyone to hold hands and get a long on day one but there would really be no reason for people to be greedy if they could anything they wanted. also just because we had a money system while having advancements doesnt mean that it was because of money. Most of human history people didnt have money or even a government for that matter and its like them saying whats the use in having a government if we were able to make fire without one. [editline]15th February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=DrMortician;28079167]You have to like numbers to get into it. If you aren't entertained by economic math, you're going to hate it, or completely fail to understand it.[/QUOTE] But the movies only really showed basic economics. You dont have to have a college degree to understand what its trying to say. Its more of having an expectation of something and not paying attention because of what you expect it to be. (most of us do this in one way or another)
[QUOTE=Im Crimson;28079076]Humans are greedy by nature and a resource-based economy isn't gonna change that. Working individually to put yourself ahead of your peers/competitors has always been the driving force behind evolution, which has gotten our race to where it is today. Adaptable as we are we might be able to change our ways and unite into a harmonic utopian society, but it's gonna take centuries and a lot more than some Zeitgeist propaganda to complete such a transformation after what thousands of years of social development in the opposite direction has made us.[/QUOTE] That's why I only push for a solution to the currency problem. There's nothing else that can really be done, that's necessary to our basic survival. Evolution is necessary to our basic survival as well, where his "perfect world" would eventually degenerate humanity. To be honest, I don't even like the concept of it. It's too restricted, and prevents anyone from making their life mean anything. [editline]15th February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=imasillypiggy;28079174] But the movies only really showed basic economics. You dont have to have a college degree to understand what its trying to say.[/QUOTE] Still have to like numbers and understand its points. I'm pretty sure only a small percentage of people even understood the most basic elements of it, since it's a long drawn out monotone rant.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;28079174]The human nature thing is weird. It just spits in the face of what we know about humans and what makes them act certain ways or behave. I mean you think people will steel or something if they could get something for free? its like having someone steel air or your drinking water. Sure I dont expect everyone to hold hands and get a long on day one but there would really be no reason for people to be greedy if they could anything they wanted. also just because we had a money system while having advancements doesnt mean that it was because of money. Most of human history people didnt have money or even a government for that matter and its like them saying whats the use in having a government if we were able to make fire without one. [/QUOTE] The greed will exist with or without money or government; that's not really part of the issue at all. The self-centric mindset is a driving force of evolution, and regardless of what situation a human ends up in it's still going to be an underlying "demon" that will affect a person's behavior (to some degree).The theft example doesn't quite illustrate what I mean, let me make up a different situation; You and I both have good graphics cards, but mine is twice as fast as yours. We can still both play Crysis at 60+ FPS (which we can assume is all we really need to be happy with the experience), but the fact that my graphics card is twice as good as yours still has potential to secretly incite envy among you and others despite the fact that Crysis plays the same in both our machines. Thinking pragmatically this envy is totally irrelevant, but it's there none the less. I have another example to suggest the presence of evolutionary instincts still affecting the modern human: Think for a minute about stockpiling, I.E buying/collecting large quantities of something you consider useful or valuable. Like, imagine stuffing a cupboard full of your favorite biscuits. Produces a nice feeling, no? Practically speaking you have no real use for huge quantities of biscuits, and if you ever wanted them you could go down to the store and buy them, but the irrelevance doesn't take away the pleasure of the practice. In practice, even in a resource-based economy some resources will still be limited somehow, which gives plenty of room for our inherent egoism to play out regardless of whether we have any actual reasons for being selfish.
[QUOTE=Im Crimson;28079657]The greed will exist with or without money or government; that's not really part of the issue at all. The self-centric mindset is a driving force of evolution, and regardless of what situation a human ends up in it's still going to be an underlying "demon" that will affect a person's behavior (to some degree).The theft example doesn't quite illustrate what I mean, let me make up a different situation; You and I both have good graphics cards, but mine is twice as fast as yours. We can still both play Crysis at 60+ FPS (which we can assume is all we really need to be happy with the experience), but the fact that my graphics card is twice as good as yours still has potential to secretly incite envy among you and others despite the fact that Crysis plays the same in both our machines. Thinking pragmatically this envy is totally irrelevant, but it's there none the less. I have another example to suggest the presence of evolutionary instincts still affecting the modern human: Think for a minute about stockpiling, I.E buying/collecting large quantities of something you consider useful or valuable. Like, imagine stuffing a cupboard full of your favorite biscuits. Produces a nice feeling, no? Practically speaking you have no real use for huge quantities of biscuits, and if you ever wanted them you could go down to the store and buy them, but the irrelevance doesn't take away the pleasure of the practice. In practice, even in a resource-based economy some resources will still be limited somehow, which gives plenty of room for our inherent egoism to play out regardless of whether we have any actual reasons for being selfish.[/QUOTE] The worlds isn't black and white. I may like biscuits, but it doesn't mean I'm about to go out and hoard millions of dollars for the sake of money. I may have some aspect of greed to me, but it doesn't put me on par with the people we're talking about. Not only that, but I wouldn't say humans are greedy by nature. We desire self fulfillment and pleasure, however, that achievement of that goal is dictated by influences around us, like society, parents, friends, etc. Greed could factor into it, as could anything else. If someone's deity requires minor self injury, then the worshipper might find self fulfillment in poking himself with a bobby pin every once in a while. It may not seem right to us, as some of us seek to be free of harm, however, disallowing him to poke himself, might bring about stress or some other negative emotion associated with a lack of self fulfillment.
[QUOTE=Im Crimson;28079657]The greed will exist with or without money or government; that's not really part of the issue at all. The self-centric mindset is a driving force of evolution, and regardless of what situation a human ends up in it's still going to be an underlying "demon" that will affect a person's behavior (to some degree).The theft example doesn't quite illustrate what I mean, let me make up a different situation; You and I both have good graphics cards, but mine is twice as fast as yours. We can still both play Crysis at 60+ FPS (which we can assume is all we really need to be happy with the experience), but the fact that my graphics card is twice as good as yours still has potential to secretly incite envy among you and others despite the fact that Crysis plays the same in both our machines. Thinking pragmatically this envy is totally irrelevant, but it's there none the less. I have another example to suggest the presence of evolutionary instincts still affecting the modern human: Think for a minute about stockpiling, I.E buying/collecting large quantities of something you consider useful or valuable. Like, imagine stuffing a cupboard full of your favorite biscuits. Produces a nice feeling, no? Practically speaking you have no real use for huge quantities of biscuits, and if you ever wanted them you could go down to the store and buy them, but the irrelevance doesn't take away the pleasure of the practice. In practice, even in a resource-based economy some resources will still be limited somehow, which gives plenty of room for our inherent egoism to play out regardless of whether we have any actual reasons for being selfish.[/QUOTE] *cough*diamonds*cough*
[QUOTE=livelonger12;28073483]It also wrongly suggests that the gold standard has been abolished, and is thusly fundamentally wrong since fiat currency sits atop gold (albeit we'd all be carrying quite a lot if we reverted to such legacy; so instead, we carry something more convenient that represents a particular quantity of gold).[/QUOTE] Nope, that's the opposite of what fiat currency is, and we went off the gold standard in the FDR years [quote]Fiat money is money that has value only because of government regulation or law. The term derives from the Latin fiat, meaning "let it be done", as such money is established by government decree. Where fiat money is used as currency, the term fiat currency is used. Today, all national currencies are fiat currencies, including the US dollar, the euro, and all other reserve currencies. This trend began with the Nixon Shock of 1971, in which the U.S. dollar was removed from being backed by precious metal.[/quote]
[QUOTE=livelonger12;28072284][B][B]Peter Joseph, Jacque Fresco and their followers will never overthrow the current socio-economic structure of humanity -- [B]we don't need that[/B]. [B]The current economic paradigm is fine[/B]; it's adjusted by nature itself via capitalism and its principle, natural selection; and it's sustained by a slight mix of socialism (e.g. via universal healthcare). [/B][/B] [/QUOTE] Take a civics/history/government class, then you may actually learn about people, politics, economies, and governments. Until then, you are stuck with elementary opinions that have little basis in actual world matters.
[QUOTE=Im Crimson;28079657]The greed will exist with or without money or government; that's not really part of the issue at all. The self-centric mindset is a driving force of evolution, and regardless of what situation a human ends up in it's still going to be an underlying "demon" that will affect a person's behavior (to some degree).The theft example doesn't quite illustrate what I mean, let me make up a different situation; You and I both have good graphics cards, but mine is twice as fast as yours. We can still both play Crysis at 60+ FPS (which we can assume is all we really need to be happy with the experience), but the fact that my graphics card is twice as good as yours still has potential to secretly incite envy[/QUOTE] Stop right there. In a resource based economy if you wanted the same graphics card as him then you could just get one. Also you say that no matter what something will be bad. Sure not everything will be perfect but a lot better then it was before. Now with the biscuits thing. Why would someone go out of there way to get more biscuits then they could eat? If they are huger then they will just go out and get biscuits and if he is not hungry he will not. Its not really that hard and I don't see why someone would do this. You can say human nature but thats just a load of crap. [editline]15th February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Swilly;28079903]*cough*diamonds*cough*[/QUOTE] Well Diamonds are kind of useless unless your an engineer. But they could be reproduced and many scientists think Diamonds will be able to be reproduced on big amounts soon. But there would be no reason to want piles of diamonds.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;28080102]Now with the biscuits thing. Why would someone go out of there way to get more biscuits then they could eat? If they are huger then they will just go out and get biscuits and if he is not hungry he will not. Its not really that hard and I don't see why someone would do this. You can say human nature but thats just a load of crap.[/QUOTE] I collect $2 bills. They have no value beyond their denomination and they probably never will in my lifetime, yet I still collect them because they're an oddity. The biscuits were only a representation. It could be gum, coins, $2 bills, motorcycle parts, etc. It's an aspect of unnecessary hoarding that some people have, used to demonstrate greed. The example still falls flat, as there are varying degrees of greed, the common collector only being a minor one. [QUOTE=imasillypiggy;28080102]Well Diamonds are kind of useless unless your an engineer. But they could be reproduced and many scientists think Diamonds will be able to be reproduced on big amounts soon. But there would be no reason to want piles of diamonds.[/QUOTE] Diamonds are shiny.
But biscuits arent an oddity. If you wanted something that was odd then it would have to be something not to many people have. meaning that you would be the only or one of the few people that want that random thing so it wouldn't really hurt anyone if you got it.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;28080575]But biscuits arent an oddity.[/QUOTE] If you opened your friend's cabinet and found a massive amount of biscuits in there, you wouldn't find that odd? :v: People collect things for different reasons, not necessarily because they're odd.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;28072284]Peter Joseph, Jacque Fresco and their followers will never overthrow the current socio-economic structure of humanity -- we don't need that. The current economic paradigm is fine; it's adjusted by nature itself via capitalism and its principle, natural selection; and it's sustained by a slight mix of socialism (e.g. via universal healthcare). The worst of this movement are the conspiracy films in which they attempt to "expose" the supposedly corrupt leaders behind the system -- a move that will never assist them. The governments are not there to betray the people, and do not lie to the people. The governments govern society to eliminate social and economic pathologies. That, and their anticipation of the monetary system for collapse -- this will not happen. Sure, it has its ups and downs, but the system is fine for our needs, and will eventually result in global sustainability (how about that? No poverty? Surely such a system must be removed!). In short, all these global and socio-economic conspiracy movements are dumb -- they're nothing more than paranoid agendas pushed by a small group or a single leader that is somewhat reflective of terrorism. I shall now proceed to my tinfoil house to eat my tinfoil pancakes![/QUOTE] This naive and short sighted thought process leaves you completely open to getting screwed over. What stops the government from doing wrong if everyone thinks they can't?
Its easy to make fun of something when you don't really know what your talking about op. I could see if it was a real argument or something but it was really you just going capitalism>anything else and Im right. well besides the conspiracy stuff.
If this were done at all, it would have to be done without an extreme attitude towards it. People can't blindly be for it and blindly go against all other systems. A dilemma I face with this system though. Someone will claim that they should be able to profit from their efforts. And it will happen. Someone or a group of people will privately work on something, be it growing items, creating better items then what's publicly available or storing items for an inevitable short supply. It's something that needs to be thought about. Perhaps free distribution may ultimately defeat them or prevent them from ever gaining any major control. Or perhaps their control could end up gaining large influence.
DrMortician I rated you funny because of your avatar.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;28081215]If this were done at all, it would have to be done without an extreme attitude towards it. People can't blindly be for it and blindly go against all other systems.[/QUOTE] Well sure I think some systems are better then others I just think this one is better then the rest I have seen. I dont just go and say every other system is horrible because if I thought that then there would be no point in me voting.
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