I'm pretty sure they were very precise in saying that the problem is stock brokers, wall street predators, and private ownership of the federal reserve, not government officials having super secret deals to rule the world. The former is talked about all the time in mainstream media. The point where Zeitgeist falls off is the proposal for Venus and the removal of the monetary system.
I'm just going to watch things unfold in the US before I make to many speculations or assumptions.
Why dont you think it would work?
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;28081337]Well sure I think some systems are better then others I just think this one is better then the rest I have seen. I dont just go and say every other system is horrible because if I thought that then there would be no point in me voting.[/QUOTE]
Well again, things aren't black and white.
What I'm trying to say, is that while you should have a dominant system, it should be allowed to facilitate micro systems aswell, like a bit of side entrepreneurship between small communities of individuals.
But what I don't know, is to what extent, or how gray it should be exactly. How much capitalism would be to much? What's a reasonable extent? With simple objects like artwork? Or beyond with improved homemade computers? But surely not power management or other necessities of life?
An absolute resource based economy could mean laws that intend to hunt out and destroy any form of capitalism. Which is simply asking for revolution.
But why would someone want to trade art work when they could just cop it and give it to everyone. sure they don't have to but I don't see why they wouldn't.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;28072284]Peter Joseph, Jacque Fresco and their followers will never overthrow the current socio-economic structure of humanity -- we don't need that. The current economic paradigm is fine; it's adjusted by nature itself via capitalism and its principle, natural selection; and it's sustained by a slight mix of socialism (e.g. via universal healthcare).
The worst of this movement are the conspiracy films in which they attempt to "expose" the supposedly corrupt leaders behind the system -- a move that will never assist them. The governments are not there to betray the people, and do not lie to the people. The governments govern society to eliminate social and economic pathologies. That, and their anticipation of the monetary system for collapse -- this will not happen. Sure, it has its ups and downs, but the system is fine for our needs, and will eventually result in global sustainability (how about that? No poverty? Surely such a system must be removed!).
In short, all these global and socio-economic conspiracy movements are dumb -- they're nothing more than paranoid agendas pushed by a small group or a single leader that is somewhat reflective of terrorism.
I shall now proceed to my tinfoil house to eat my tinfoil pancakes![/QUOTE]
Starting a thread with the title 'x is y' where y is an insult seems like a bad idea.
the illuminati is going to see this thread and be pleased because there are still people like the OP in the united stated of americuh people like the op is the reason the illuminati exist because they eat up anything the media tells them and like sheep follow the crowd and what everybody else thinks just like all the religions too
No stupid its not the illuminati its lizard men. get it right.
uhh lizard men thats a little bizarre don't you think?
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;28081512]But why would someone want to trade art work when they could just cop it and give it to everyone. sure they don't have to but I don't see why they wouldn't.[/QUOTE]
It makes it more special. If you were to spend hours laboring on a unique card for each member of your family, it would be have more meaning than making one card, copying it and giving it to each member of your family.
Not everyone is the same. Some people seek to receive compensation for their efforts, while others don't. There are game designers who would be fine with giving their products away for free, as long as they could survive without necessities of life, which cost money.
It's a flaw with capitalism. It actually prevents people from sharing their creation, because to live and continue making more creations, you've got to have a monetary return somewhere.
Although its wonderful in terms of itself, because it requires people to keep the money flowing. However, that's not exactly people friendly.
It's like true communism. On paper it works, in reality it doesn't.
Sure, I wouldn't mind trading resource for resource (to a lesser extent) if it could work. The problem with it is the way people assign value to items. Literally. The saying as it goes is one mans trash is another mans treasure.
[QUOTE=Hybridthury;28081651]uhh lizard men thats a little bizarre don't you think?[/QUOTE]
Nope they work together with bigfoot but you wouldnt know since your a sheeple who hasnt opened your mind with the power amount of lsd
[editline]15th February 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rubs10;28081663]It makes it more special. If you were to spend hours laboring on a unique card for each member of your family, it would be have more meaning than making one card, copying it and giving it to each member of your family.[/QUOTE]
Then specialize each card. But it doesnt mean you wouldnt give someone a card as well if they wanted one. I mean if the artist wants to paint a picture a 1000 times instead of just putting it on deviant art then well he can.
The compensation for making a game would be having a fun new game and fans.
I mean what would they want? money? That would be useless in there system.
[editline]15th February 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Teddi Orange;28081687]
Sure, I wouldn't mind trading resource for resource[/QUOTE]
It doesnt really work that way. you dont ask for paper and have to trade them an apple for it.
[QUOTE=Teddi Orange;28081687]It's like true communism. On paper it works, in reality it doesn't.
Sure, I wouldn't mind trading resource for resource (to a lesser extent) if it could work. The problem with it is the way people assign value to items. Literally. The saying as it goes is one mans trash is another mans treasure.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that what I've been considering. How well would this actually work in large scale practice? They claim it works on smale scale, but larger scale takes in more variables that can also differ from small scale..
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;28081696]
Then specialize each card. But it doesnt mean you wouldnt give someone a card as well if they wanted one. I mean if the artist wants to paint a picture a 1000 times instead of just putting it on deviant art then well he can.
The compensation for making a game would be having a fun new game and fans.
I mean what would they want? money? That would be useless in there system.[/QUOTE]
Not all people see it that way. They could ask for someone else's excess allowance of resources. They could ask for services or any other thing. Theoretically, you would still own things that you could give away or trade.
Also, as he said, one mans trash is another mans treasure. People will want different things, some may not be available to the distributors. What about drugs? It takes effort to get those, so dealers will probably ask for part of what they own. Paintings take effort to make, so some people will ask for something tangible in return for their effort, as they're giving something that is also tangible.
Okay yeah your right, everything in the world is all correct, nobody has every lied to you, the world is perfect, all middle easterners are terrorists, please continue to spend your entire life as a mindless consumer for the leaders to gain power.
[img]http://dailycensored.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/pyramid-capitalism.gif[/img]
I'm not supporting any conspiracies but our system is fucked up. We are lied to and exploited. It's just truth, it's human nature.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;28081696]
It doesnt really work that way. you dont ask for paper and have to trade them an apple for it.[/QUOTE]
Then it's not trading. It's giving away items.
And before anyone else attempts to debate with him I advise you go look at [URL]http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1054211-ZEITGEIST-Moving-Forward[/URL] and you'll see that imasillypiggy really is a silly piggy and impossible to reason with at all.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;28081822]Yeah, that what I've been considering. How well would this actually work in large scale practice? They claim it works on smale scale, but larger scale takes in more variables that can also differ from small scale..
Not all people see it that way.[/QUOTE]
If anything it would work better because there would be more types of resources.
Teddi Oranges argument only counts if there still a form of trade in resources. If they assign a lot of value to a resource then they would have it. someone who deosn't would not get the resource.
[editline]15th February 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Teddi Orange;28081916]Then it's not trading. It's giving away items.
And before anyone else attempts to debate with him I advise you go look at [URL]http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1054211-ZEITGEIST-Moving-Forward[/URL] and you'll see that imasillypiggy really is a silly piggy, and impossible to reason with at all.[/QUOTE]
First there would be a big difference between trading and giving away items and 2nd that thread could be used for anyside since No one was really proven wrong. It was more of someone making a point and me or someone else explaining how it wouldnt work that way. I mean most of the arguments were just stupid and could be shown wrong in a sentence
[QUOTE=Teddi Orange;28081687]It's like true communism. On paper it works, in reality it doesn't.[/QUOTE]
Correction, it's not that it doesn't, it's that it [I]hasn't[/I]. Which doesn't mean it never will.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;28081921]If anything it would work better because there would be more types of resources.
Teddi Oranges argument only counts if there still a form of trade in resources. If they assign a lot of value to a resource then they would have it. someone who deosn't would not get the resource.
[editline]15th February 2011[/editline]
First there would be a big difference between trading and giving away items and 2nd that thread could be used for anyside since No one was really proven wrong. It was more of someone making a point and me or someone else explaining how it wouldnt work that way.[/QUOTE]
That thread was multiple people providing a pretty decent argument and then you turning around and going nope and changing tact altogether. I don't dispute that anyone was specifically wrong or right.
The idea of a trade is that you give something and in return you recieve something.
Three dictionary definitions:
[quote=http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trade]
–noun 1.the [URL="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/act"]act[/URL] or process of buying, selling, or exchanging commodities, at either wholesale or retail, within a country or between countries: domestic trade; foreign trade.
2.a purchase or sale; [URL="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/business"]business[/URL] deal or transaction.
3.an exchange of items, usually without payment of [URL="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/money"]money[/URL].[/quote]
You cannot go and change the definition to what you think it should be to suit your own means. To give away is to give someone a gift (ie not expecting anything in return).
[QUOTE=fenwick;28082003]Correction, it's not that it doesn't, it's that it [I]hasn't[/I]. Which doesn't mean it never will.[/QUOTE]
But it's rather unlikely.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;28081921]If anything it would work better because there would be more types of resources.
Teddi Oranges argument only counts if there still a form of trade in resources. If they assign a lot of value to a resource then they would have it. someone who deosn't would not get the resource.
[editline]15th February 2011[/editline]
First there would be a big difference between trading and giving away items and 2nd that thread could be used for anyside since No one was really proven wrong. It was more of someone making a point and me or someone else explaining how it wouldnt work that way. I mean most of the arguments were just stupid and could be shown wrong in a sentence[/QUOTE]
He's got a point piggy. You have a legit interest in this, but I've tried to be silly with you long enough and I think it would be more beneficial if you simply read rather than posted. You should also take some courses in psychology, sociology, politics, business, history and read some books by authors like Ayn Rand, Aldous Huxley, Kirk Vonnegut and maybe Orson Scott Card, as you seem to be interested in those subjects.
I would appreciate it.
I don't think The Zeitgiest Movement, at least from the viewpoint of the third movie, is any sort of conspiracy theory. I just think it brings to show the hypothetical standpoints of what could happen [b]if[/b] human civilization could potentially 'restart' and to do this in the movie, it contrasts it to how the current situation is and what faults we currently have that aren't really fair.
It doesn't try to say what will happen eventually, of course money is becoming more of a unfair burden on the world compared to the past, nothing can change this. I just think this movie attempts to bring out the awareness from people who are generally seen as closed-minded.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;28081696]Nope they work together with bigfoot but you wouldnt know since your a sheeple who hasnt opened your mind with the power amount of lsd.[/QUOTE]
you're wired arent you
[QUOTE=Turtlecake;28082107]I don't think The Zeitgiest Movement, at least from the viewpoint of the third movie, is any sort of conspiracy theory. I just think it brings to show the hypothetical standpoints of what could happen [b]if[/b] human civilization could potentially 'restart' and to do this in the movie, it contrasts it to how the current situation is and what faults we currently have that aren't really fair.
It doesn't try to say what will happen eventually, of course money is becoming more of a unfair burden on the world compared to the past, nothing can change this. I just think this movie attempts to bring out the awareness from people who are generally seen as closed-minded.[/QUOTE]
It promotes the Venus Project which is all about reforming governments and the economy.
[QUOTE=Teddi Orange;28082041]That thread was multiple people providing a pretty decent argument and then you turning around and going nope and changing tact altogether. I don't dispute that anyone was specifically wrong or right.
The idea of a trade is that you give something and in return you recieve something.
Three dictionary definitions:
You cannot go and change the definition to what you think it should be to suit your own means. To give away is to give someone a gift (ie not expecting anything in return).
But it's rather unlikely.[/QUOTE]
I wasnt changing the definition. There is a difference between trading resources and giving them. when giving something you dont have to give anything in return.
[editline]15th February 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rubs10;28082046]He's got a point piggy. You have a legit interest in this, but I've tried to be silly with you long enough and I think it would be more beneficial if you simply read rather than posted. You should also take some courses in psychology, sociology, politics, business, history and read some books by authors like Ayn Rand, Aldous Huxley, Kirk Vonnegut and maybe Orson Scott Card, as you seem to be interested in those subjects.
I would appreciate it.[/QUOTE]
I did read those except aldous huxley. His only point was something that would only work if we were talking about trade. I was simply saying it wasnt trade and there is a difference. He didnt really bring a real point up of why it would not work. Instead he made an argument based on the a resource based economy is not.
[editline]15th February 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Hybridthury;28082138]you're wired arent you[/QUOTE]
Thats what the lizerds want you to think. Take my hand and use the lsd to see through the lies made by the man.
hey guys i got ticketed by an officer THIS IS A FUCKING CONSPIRACY TO RESTRAIN ME FROM THE TRUTH
-snip- my own stupidity.
[editline]16th February 2011[/editline]
heres a good mindset: question everything. trust nothing. thats how I am
At first glance, as a teenager, the Zeitgeist movies were mind-blowing.
But when you take a step back, most of it is either obvious or completely ridiculous and unproven. The problem is, you can't have a debate with your TV.
Emm OP not at anytime do you ever consider the idea of sustainability, our economy demands infinite resources but resources are finite, this was very much observed by the Zeitgest movement. You seem to have some ignorant belief that everything is fine and dandy and that the current economic system will work forever. Seriously please think ahead and consider the implication society today may have on future generation and don't be so closed-minded.
Not to mention you sound like some Glen Beck type idiot with your "terrorist" statement, yes because everyone who has a differing opinion from the current monetary system is a "somewhat terrorist" pull your head out of your ass and think for yourself, I can't understand any other reason for that statement other then blind faith in your economy and all that bullshit your hear in the news about terrorists everyday.
What I hate is bandwagon threads like this, if this was anything else making a thread expressing a closed opinion would be considered stupid, but as the Zeitgest Movement is considered some "conspiracy" (I'm talking here in regard to the statements made about a needed change in the economic system, not the corruption conspiracies presented in the first video) it's almost cool and hip to dismiss it, sure I can agree that the stuff presented in the first video is your typical conspiracy-esque rant but you can't just abandon what else is said about how terrible the current system is for long-term sustainability and economic welfare which is pretty much fact.
Can't help but think that maybe genesis was right: intelligence is a curse.
People go on about the importance of the human race constantly, but what does it matter? Surely if we're all just tiny, unimportant grains of space dust then we may as well just do whatever the hell we like. Everyone seems to be searching for meaning that just isn't there.
Also, going on about selfishness and greed is pretty pointless. Breathing, drinking eating, buying, stealing, love, even gifts and charity work; they're all self-serving. You can't live without being selfish, and you can't kill yourself either because then you'll be hurting your friends and family, and leaving a corpse that someone has to deal with.
/disturbed madman rant
So according to the OP, movements like The Venus Project and Zeitgeist are tinfoil hat wearing terrorists for pointing out some of the shortcomings with finance based economies, and exploring alternatives?
Heh, ok.
I'd rather have a sustainable balance based on planned sustainability, equality and designed to keep the planet and population happy and healthy, rather than a sustainable balance where it's sustainable because any excess population suffers and dies to keep things balanced.
"hurf durf I'll go get my tinfoil hat" makes you look like an Idiot just fyi
I just watched a bit of the Zeitgeist. Shit's stupid, it looks like goddamn propaganda with "symbolic" messages and shitty video effects and such. if they didnt try to make it look so big and scary I wouldnt mind, but comeon. Comeon.
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