Totalbiscuit on Skyrim's "Paid Modding" - General

[QUOTE=BANNED USER;47586327]Total conversions or bottom up mods like Garrys Mod, Insurgency, Killing Floor, Cry of Fear, etc. totally deserve to be paid for content. However, this "pay for a cosmetic mod, item, character, etc." doesn't make any sense to me.[/QUOTE] I'd much rather pay for high quality Quest mods. Those would be worth money.

I imagine of that 75% the publisher takes the lion share, there is no business on this planet that would cede any amount over 50% to a third party for their own property. So I suspect the native publisher walks away with at least 2/3 of that and Steam cleans up the remainder. Still, it is pretty shitty that the person who walks away the worst in all of this is the modders themselves. They get pennys on the dollar AND they get all the flak from the retards who 1-star brigade their mods and leave them shitty messages. Again Valve hamfists its way into another problem and winds up looking all the scummier for it.

When he says that he thinks it might improve the quality of the mods, I can't help but feel he has forgotten the entirety of Greenlight.

[QUOTE=Thlis;47586459]When he says that he thinks it might improve the quality of the mods, I can't help but feel he has forgotten the entirety of Greenlight.[/QUOTE] Well at the end of the day, Biscuit IS a content creator, and his livelihood depends on what he does.

[QUOTE=BANNED USER;47586327]However, this "pay for a cosmetic mod, item, character, etc." doesn't make any sense to me.[/QUOTE] What about Dota 2, TF2 and CS:GO? Besides, it's the author's decision whether to charge money for their creation.

[QUOTE=Jericho_Rus;47586492]What about Dota 2, TF2 and CS:GO? Besides, it's the author's decision whether to charge money for their creation.[/QUOTE] I don't know about GO, but those two games allow you to earn items through time or by trading

[QUOTE=CrossNgen;47586514]I don't know about GO, but those two games allow you to earn items through time or by trading[/QUOTE] Wouldn't selling a few items on the market and spending that money on a thing in skyrim count as trading though? They're actually making it worse in Dota 2 by the way, there are restrictions on trading and selling items for a lot of items so that people buy the chests instead of trading for them

I got into pc gaming due to mods. I don't know how to feel about this, Early Access didn't really raise my optimism about Valve's choices, this feels like the same, only with mods. Then there's the whole "Game updates, mods borken" issue, are modders entitled to just leave their work behind after they collect the moolah? Or are they bound by some contract to eternally update a weapon collection for skyrim? Overall this feels like a really bad move. There was nothing wrong with modders asking for donations, this is just valve trying to cash in on what used to be free.

I'm honestly not very worried about it. The mods that people think are worth paying will be bought and played, and the mods that people don't think are worth paying for (like many of the cosmetic mods) will not be bought and either eventually go free, or just be replaced by other peoples work who have made things cheaper / free. That's how markets work and this one isn't any different. Now valve taking 75% away in the first place is a different issue. This is most certainly going to cause content creators to up their price to try to make the money which they should be (arguably) entitled to in the first place. I don't understand valve taking such a huge cut, unless behind the curtains that cut is going to Bethesda. I doubt that though.

[QUOTE=Srillo;47586439]I imagine of that 75% the publisher takes the lion share, there is no business on this planet that would cede any amount over 50% to a third party for their own property. So I suspect the native publisher walks away with at least 2/3 of that and Steam cleans up the remainder. Still, it is pretty shitty that the person who walks away the worst in all of this is the modders themselves. They get pennys on the dollar AND they get all the flak from the retards who 1-star brigade their mods and leave them shitty messages. Again Valve hamfists its way into another problem and winds up looking all the scummier for it.[/QUOTE] The music business has been doing this forever. 75% goes to the distribution site, 20-24% goes to the label, and 1-2% goes to the actual creator of the music. It's a really shitty way of doing business, but people get away with it a lot of the time. The only way artists in the music business get paid is by doing live shows. Makes me livid that that shitty scheme is spilling into other areas of entertainment.

-snip-

Money for mods has long been a controversial topic within modding communities. Back in the day in the Sims 2 modding community there were a number of content creators who kept certain download items behind a paywall, and you would either have to pay for a subscription or donate money to them in order to be able to download the mods. This was such a polarizing action (the general argument was that it went against the Sims EULA) that certain individuals would mass upload the 'paysite' content on websites of their own in protest. Then you have the more recent Minecraft mod community where there wasn't that much of an objection to individuals attaching ad revenue links to their mod downloads, and a number of them run patreons for their modding efforts. Honestly I think it would be great if Steam had a built in donation system for content creators, but I have to worry that implementing pay based mods would be a bad idea, especially since the Steam Workshop already holds a number of mods that include content ripped from other games.

I'm not sure how they would prevent people from just reuploading the mods somewhere else though

Hmmm well I really hope they don't implement this on day 1 for FO4 because honestly Bethesda TES/FO games aren't super amazing by themselves even after they spend months ironing out the bugs

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;47585877]Once again Biscuit comes in as a good voice of reasoning between the arguments. But I think we can agree that Valve has been slowly turning into a new EA. I mean seriously, 75% on a game you didn't make, and all this Pseudo Monopoly crap? For shame.[/QUOTE] In the end Valve's devoted fans will act like its a charity service (see SPUF community), but for shame if someone else does it. It's okay when its Valve.

[QUOTE=Jund;47587060]Hmmm well I really hope they don't implement this on day 1 for FO4 because honestly Bethesda TES/FO games aren't super amazing by themselves even after they spend months ironing out the bugs[/QUOTE] They spend MONTHS ironing out bugs at Bethesda? I thought they just gave it to an intern for a week and said, "fix bugs, oh BTW it ships tomorrow."

Update from TB: [url]https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/thanks-for-the-thumbs-d[/url]

[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;47585459]Some do and they can make it for free if they want to, but a lot of modders put in the work of a full time job or more to create their mods and if they want to sell it they deserve that right, nobody's making you buy it.[/QUOTE] If a modder suddenly decides to take a mod that's been free for 4 years and make it charged out of the blue then I'll kindly tell them to fuck right off and never use any of their shit ever again. Nobody's making me buy it, doesn't mean I have to like it or even ignore it. It's a scumbag thing to do.

[QUOTE=~Kiwi~v2;47586905]I may be getting this wrong but please correct me. You mention music labels. now the first thing that pops to my mind is Monstercat. I wonder if their distribution and label practice differ from stuff like WMI and Sony.[/QUOTE] I've never been a huge fan of Monstercats business practices. But yes they are a music label.

I said it in the main thread too but if you're paying for it, then it's not a mod anymore. It's fan made micro transaction with no quality control or accountability.

[QUOTE={TFS} Rock Su;47588647]Update from TB: [url]https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/thanks-for-the-thumbs-d[/url][/QUOTE] If a lot of the downvoters actually watched the video in full, they would probably find that they agree with TB. Not that it really matters though (as TB explains).

[url]http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=430955234&searchtext=[/url] [QUOTE]Have you ever walked into the Bannered Mare and thought to yourself: "Man, this place could use an extra apple."? Well, worry no longer! "Extra Apple" adds another apple to the counter in the Bannered Mare. [/QUOTE] someone wants to charge 30$ for a joke entry [url]http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=430945230&searchtext=[/url] 10$ for a golden potato [url]http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=430897627&searchtext=[/url] 100$ [url]http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=430976844&searchtext=[/url] 1$ for a mod that is complete bullshit now people are only going to spam shitty entries like they do with greenlight for quick $$$$ over something they made in 2 seconds and no way to downvote

Valve's backbone is formed of TF2, CS:GO, and Dota 2. These were all formed from mods of other games. What in the ever loving fuck are they thinking? Of all people they should know above all else what can be accomplished from modding, even excusing enjoyment and content wise, purely in terms of profits they've most likely made a couple billion. How the fuck does greed blind people this much?

15:02 UT99 - Foregone Destruction On topic, I believe modders should be paid for their work, but as Total Biscuit mentioned, some of the prices on the mods are ridiculous. $1 for a simple sword. It's hard to blame the modders for jacking the prices up so high, however. Valve has been ridiculously greedy as of late, taking 75% profit off mods for a game they don't even own is fucking ludicrous. In my opinion, the biggest problem with this is Valve's greed, along side the difficulty of being able to manage the modifications. Total Biscuit also mentioned people just ripping mods down off of the nexus, throwing them onto Steam workshop and charging money for it. Valve does not have the man power to validate people's work.

[QUOTE=Skyward;47585491]Taking 75% on shit they had absolutely no part in making for a game that's not theirs is not just absurd, it's fucking scumbaggy, nothing less. [/QUOTE] Valve doesn't get 75%. 25% go to the modder, Valve gets like 25% and the rest go to Bethesda because they created Skyrim in the first place.

[QUOTE=Cold;47586017]I assume there is a cut for Bethesda somewhere inside that 75%.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Antimuffin;47589302]Valve doesn't get 75%. 25% go to the modder, Valve gets like 25% and the rest go to Bethesda because they created Skyrim in the first place.[/QUOTE] Yeah, for some people simple logic doesn't work, nobody has even concidered in the last hours since the announcement that not all of the 75% goes STRAIGHT TO VALVE IN GABES POCKET but that a part of it MIGHT go to Bethesda Game Studios and/or Bethesda Softworks as it would make sence, since the modders are using content provided by them to monetize on it and Steam/Valve being only the 3rd party distributor. TB is following the same routine, not even waiting for an official confirmation that it is like that and starts ranting about it. People would like to jump into this discussion, contribute or correct him but no, he doesn't want no comments anymore, so the only way to tell him that he's wrong or say "I might disagree" is thumbing him down anonymously, which he then sees as an attack on his video and gives him reason to talk even more about it and say "ha ha, your attacks wont hurt me, I still get my views and clicks" No TB, nobody attacked you, they have no other way to disagree on his [B]unconfirmed [/B](and dangerous) claims. Yes, I do agree with TB saying that modders should get money for their work but you can't talk out of your ass and say that Valve ACTUALLY gets 75% of pure profit as a game company.

[QUOTE=DMGaina;47589325]Yeah, for some people simple logic doesn't work, nobody has even concidered in the last hours since the announcement that not all of the 75% goes STRAIGHT TO VALVE IN GABES POCKET but that a part of it MIGHT go to Bethesda Game Studios and/or Bethesda Softworks as it would make sence, since the modders are using content provided by them to monetize on it and Steam/Valve being only the 3rd party distributor.[/QUOTE] Umm no, most people have quoted that the 75% goes to Steam and Bethesda. It doesn't make it any less ridiculous, unfair and a quick way to make money off other people's work. I've defended LPs not owing anything to the game creators many times, but I freely admit there are some grey areas there. This is so much more clear cut. Who gives two fucks where the 75% goes. It is the fact that the creator of the mod getting 25% of the value that is the issue (along with every other issue every sane person has brought up in this thread and the one in SH).

[QUOTE=Fetret;47589454]Umm no, most people have quoted that the 75% goes to Steam and Bethesda. It doesn't make it any less ridiculous, unfair and a quick way to make money off other people's work. I've defended LPs not owing anything to the game creators many times, but I freely admit there are some grey areas there. This is so much more clear cut. Who gives two fucks where the 75% goes. It is the fact that the creator of the mod getting 25% of the value that is the issue (along with every other issue every sane person has brought up in this thread and the one in SH).[/QUOTE] 25% of profit, HOW is this an issue? TB hasn't really mentioned the 25% being an issue but rather problematic with stolen mods and small buts, the issue was, that Valve gets 75% alone, which is not true and the main topic of the thread/video. How is this an issue if you get 25% on creating something from assets you do not own on a distribution plattform you do not control and maintain yourself? 25% for the user minus Taxes and 75% that go to (and this is just me guessing, I am sure there are more departments involved) [B]STEAM[/B] This is the distribution plattform! It promotes your work and gives an easy way on making money, Servers and maintenance, "moderation" of the Workshop, employees to keep shit running, etc. [B]Bethesda Game Studios[/B] Provided the 3D, 2D assets in the first place... the source code that's used aka SKYRIM IN GENERAL - the game you never worked on and you make money off [B] Bethesda Softworks[/B] Financing the game in the first place, distributing it WORLDWIDE which means that every local division in france, germany, UK, etc is seeing a part of this [B]VALVE Game Company[/B] taking a small share/cut as profit out of it because why the fuck not We do not know the exact numbers but nobody in the right state of mind would bring up that Valve alone is getting 75%. I am happy that Bethesda and Steam are giving modders a way to make some money off their work. I'd wish it would be more but in case of Skyrim, 25% is overall a good deal. And yes, mini mods asking for ridicilous prices are an issue aswell but those will die out pretty quickly once the whole workshop will calm down and balance itself out.

If this shit goes on with the next Bethesda game they'll be shooting themselves in the foot. I still go back to New Vegas fairly often to check out the modding scene, and I go back to skyrim every once in a while for the same. Modding, and the modding community, are probably some of the biggest draws for most PC players, and to put that behind a paywall will kill a lot of enthusiasm. Now, don't get me wrong, I'd be more than willing to pay for an overhaul with a storyline, new world, and new characters, but even the best mods out right now for skyrim are pretty shit in all those regards. Still, new content is new content, and that would extend playtime because it's a new experience, so paying for that stuff I wouldn't mind too much. That being said, there are a lot of people who won't pay, and over night Bethesda/Valve has killed off part of their fanbase. But that's not what scares me, what really scare me are the small mods. The armor packs, the weapon packs, the sound mods, the visual fixes, the minor gameplay tweaks that make the whole thing easier to play. Those make up about 4/5ths of what I have installed in skyrim and new vegas because bethesda are ass at polishing their products. I would never fucking pay for any of them, even though I'd argue that they're what make some of the games playable for me. Not because I'm an entitled shit, but because they're too small on their own. I uninstall more of the small mods after an hour than I keep because something is off usually or it doesn't jive with my mod list. I'm not paying 50 dollars for 100 shit mods when I only end up using 6 in my main save. If you were to bundle the small mods together there's no guarantee I'd want more than a few things in the pack since such bundles are often inconsistent with work: see the immersive armors in skyrim. All that shit will severely weaken modding as a draw for me.

[QUOTE=DMGaina;47589478]25% of profit, HOW is this an issue? TB has never mentioned the 25% being an issue but that Valve gets 75% alone. (Which is not true) How is this an issue if you get 25% on creating something from assets you do not own on a distribution plattform you do not control and maintain yourself? 25% for the user minus Taxes and 75% that go to (and this is just me guessing, I am sure there are more departments involved) [B]STEAM[/B] This is the distribution plattform! It promotes your work and gives an easy way on making money, Servers and maintenance, "moderation" of the Workshop, employees to keep shit running, etc. [B]Bethesda Game Studios[/B] Provided the 3D, 2D assets in the first place... the source code that's used aka SKYRIM IN GENERAL - the game you never worked on and you make money off [B] Bethesda Softworks[/B] Financing the game in the first place, distributing it WORLDWIDE which means that every local division in france, germany, UK, etc is seeing a part of this [B]VALVE Game Company[/B] taking a small share/cut as profit out of it because why the fuck not We do not know the exact numbers but nobody in the right state of mind would bring up that Valve alone is getting 75%. I am happy that Bethesda and Steam are giving modders a way to make some money off their work. I'd wish it would be more but in case of Skyrim, 25% is overall a good deal.[/QUOTE] Wait what? If TB said he was against Valve taking 75% alone and he wanted Bethesda to take a part of that share as well then I think he is not right, but that is not what he said and especially in the soundcloud update he specifically says how this arrangement is even worse than what Nintendo does for LPers and those require even less skill to develop, which means he is against the content creator receiving so little of the profit for essentially doing all the work. Why do you keep assuming the mods are using purely Bethesda assets? What about swords with completely original models and textures? What about quests with pages of writing and cleverly designed dungeons? And your list of where the 75% goes means absolutely nothing, because A) you guessed it as you said, and B) The game is already sold and distributed and you bought it. No one is saying Steam/Bethesda will get no cut and all the money will go straight to developers (which actually would be system I could possibly defend), but people who actually sit down and create a mod most definitely deserve a bigger cut than the guys who are just waiting for the money to roll in simply because they are providing a "marketplace".