Totalbiscuit on Skyrim's "Paid Modding" - General

[QUOTE=DMGaina;47589478]25% of profit, HOW is this an issue? TB hasn't really mentioned the 25% being an issue but rather problematic with stolen mods and small buts, the issue was, that Valve gets 75% alone, which is not true and the main topic of the thread/video. How is this an issue if you get 25% on creating something from assets you do not own on a distribution plattform you do not control and maintain yourself? 25% for the user minus Taxes and 75% that go to (and this is just me guessing, I am sure there are more departments involved) [B]STEAM[/B] This is the distribution plattform! It promotes your work and gives an easy way on making money, Servers and maintenance, "moderation" of the Workshop, employees to keep shit running, etc. [B]Bethesda Game Studios[/B] Provided the 3D, 2D assets in the first place... the source code that's used aka SKYRIM IN GENERAL - the game you never worked on and you make money off [B] Bethesda Softworks[/B] Financing the game in the first place, distributing it WORLDWIDE which means that every local division in france, germany, UK, etc is seeing a part of this [B]VALVE Game Company[/B] taking a small share/cut as profit out of it because why the fuck not We do not know the exact numbers but nobody in the right state of mind would bring up that Valve alone is getting 75%. I am happy that Bethesda and Steam are giving modders a way to make some money off their work. I'd wish it would be more but in case of Skyrim, 25% is overall a good deal. And yes, mini mods asking for ridicilous prices are an issue aswell but those will die out pretty quickly once the whole workshop will calm down and balance itself out.[/QUOTE] id guess that the terms of it were that valve have to take the hit so people dont know how much bethesda get. i said this in the other thread, but i have no issue with this concept at its core. the problem i have comes in where refunding is involved. if valve do their typical refund style of put it in your steam wallet as credit with this, that means that rather than the content creator or the game company getting money, valve basically keep 100% of it. if it is the case then its kinda dodgy because valve themselves are saying 'yeah its fine you can just refund within 24hrs if its broken' but it isnt really a true refund if they give credit and they are basically keeping your money anyway.

Not to mention #1 reason why I got Skyrim, Fallout: New Vegas, and later Fallout 3 was because of mods. Bethesda/Zenimax should be paying the mod authors. To clarify: How many copies do you think mods like Xcom Long war drove people to buy in the first place?

[QUOTE={TFS} Rock Su;47588647]Update from TB: [url]https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/thanks-for-the-thumbs-d[/url][/QUOTE] They chose Skyrim because this doesn't work for Multiplayer Games. You'd buy something and expect it to show for other people too but that would require them to download it in the first place, kind of like in Gmod. Except people would have to download stuff they didn't buy or want so they can see stuff that someone else paid for.

[QUOTE=Fetret;47589510] [...] which means he is against the content creator receiving so little of the profit for essentially doing all the work.[...][/Quote] Sell a game on Steam alone as an indie or with the help of another publisher, you end up getting 30% - 50% maximum as the original developer of the game... it looks different in the app stores but things aren't that peachy for the developers anywhere. I am not pulling this out of my ass, I know this first hand, if you want another source and don't belive me, here is a good one: [url]http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1574[/url] 25% is a lot for modifications to a game you have not created in the first place and you were never part of. I think it's a fair deal so far and a great move by Steam and Bethesda to give talented people the chance to make some money. It's not a bad deal even if Valve and Bethesda WILL make some profit out of it but then again, everyone is making profit off your work in this industry. [QUOTE=Fetret;47589510] [...] Why do you keep assuming the mods are using purely Bethesda assets? What about swords with completely original models and textures? What about quests with pages of writing and cleverly designed dungeons? [...] [/Quote] It doesn't change the fact that none of these mods is 100% standalone, even if you rewrite everything and model and texture every single model in the game from scratch, you are still using Gamebryo which not only needs licensing for itself but also for the features it used and licenced only for "Skyrim" like Wwise or PhysX. [QUOTE=Fetret;47589510] [...] And your list of where the 75% goes means absolutely nothing, because A) you guessed it as you said, and B) The game is already sold and distributed and you bought it. No one is saying Steam/Bethesda will get no cut and all the money will go straight to developers (which actually would be system I could possibly defend) [...][/QUOTE] Yes, I wrote this list down with no proof, source or knowledge but these are realistic departments on where the money COULD go. We don't know who gets how much but it's more credible and solid than saying that Valve gets 100%, it's all I wanted to say. [QUOTE=Fetret;47589510][...] but people who actually sit down and create a mod most definitely deserve a bigger cut than the guys who are just waiting for the money to roll in simply because they are providing a "marketplace".[...] [/QUOTE] A marketplace that was created for talented people(modders) by Valve and Bethesda who are now offering those people to sell items. At this point the opinions will differ but looking back at how much hypothetical costs are connected to all this, 25% is a lot for the modders. Of course the modders should think about their pricing so that their 25% is actually worth the effort, at this point it's in their hands.

[QUOTE=DMGaina;47589678] Of course the modders should think about their pricing so that their 25% is actually worth the effort, at this point it's in their hands.[/QUOTE] And I do not agree with original content creators/indie developers getting 30-50% of the profit of their games either, but that is not what we are discussing here. And again, Steam is offering the marketplace and ease of transaction, which again deserves some compensation. I'll even throw in some compensation for the original game creator because I don't feel like arguing about how they sold the game in the first place and we paid for the content they have created. But 25% is a percentage, it means you as the creator of the mod are entitled to a quarter of the return. The parties that either passively offer the access to the said mod (which again I agree costs money so should be compensated if paid mods are a thing) or doing fuck all are getting the majority of the profit. Why not a flat rate then? Valve covers the costs of hosting and adds a small profit margin on top, same with Bethesda if they want to be greedy, and the rest goes to the developer. Why does a mod that is expensive because it is very detailed and required a lot of time and effort by the mod maker should make Valve and Bethesda more money? If the argument against flat rate is that it would kill the minimum price set by the mod developer then just implement a system that caps Valve/Bethesda share at a certain point. The way it stands now this is absolutely nothing but a very obvious cash grab by Valve (and Bethesda).

Boycott the mods that aren't pay what you want & give the pay what you want mods what you think they are worth. I support pay what you want.

[QUOTE=Fetret;47589761] Why does a mod that is expensive because it is very detailed and required a lot of time and effort by the mod maker should make Valve and Bethesda more money? If the argument against flat rate is that it would kill the minimum price set by the mod developer then just implement a system that caps Valve/Bethesda share at a certain point. The way it stands now this is absolutely nothing but a very obvious cash grab by Valve (and Bethesda).[/QUOTE] At this point it's make money with your mod and 75% goes to Valve and Bethesda or make no money (like it was all these years before) and give 75% of $0 to Valve and Bethesda. And as I mentioned before, it's a mod, when you bought Skyrim, you only payed for the use rights of the game and that's it, you never paid for the engine and the distribution or rights to sell user generated content! To be objective and brutally honest here, the modder actually makes money of someone else's work in this case. I like the idea of paying modders trough official channels, I really do, I hope to see some better deals like this in near future, don't get me wrong, but I do think that this is the best deal they could have gotten and I am also NOT defending Valve or Bethesda but I do think it's a GOOD deal [B]so far[/B] given the circumstances, it might change once big total conversions want to hop on the profit train. Also, nothing speaks against still using patreon or paypal donations - it still works as greyzone since you are not paying directly for a mod. What I am more concerned of, is other users exploiting this system by start selling cheat weapons (for instance) ,other small bullshit mods or even stolen one for extremely high prices.

[QUOTE=spekter;47586085]That point specifically is ridiculous. The mod communities for HL1/2, UT2004 and Doom (20 years worth of modding bare in mind) which are by far the biggest and most successful in the modding scene did that shit because they loved it.[/QUOTE] While I agree that there are people that mod games for the love and fun of it (me included), I think you're thinking a bit too highly of modders in general. The reason nobody sold mods (well they could, but it would be hard to) in the past was because there was no platform to sell mods. I'd bet money that if a highly popular platform like the Skyrim Workshop was present in the 90s for Doom or Quake, a good chunk of the modders would move over... [QUOTE=zeldar;47585798]Some modders are already taking their most popular mods and putting new and improved versions on the workshop for a price, making only the older versions free.[/QUOTE] ...kind of like this. Personally, the concept itself is alright. It's kind of like the new Unreal Tournaments model, which is kind of a different case I guess, since that game is free and Skyrim isn't. If a modder wants to sell his content, [I]why stop him[/I]? I think most of the hate comes from the fact that Valve gives modders that choice to begin with. It's not like suddenly every modder is going to paywall their shit. Besides, shitty content tends to not be bought. I think the worst thing is the 75% cut that Valve takes. Last time I checked the CS:GO market, they only get 10% or 15%. Looking at it another way, they basically place a 300% tax on your mod, which is pretty ridiculous. I'd be fine if they lowered it some. I mean shit, Valve can make more money off your mod than you do. What the hell?

As I said earlier, I wouldn't even buy those. It's not a mod at that point, and quite frankly I wouldn't mind donating some money to those bigger teams if they allow, but putting it behind a paywall is the dumbest move ever.

[QUOTE=joshuadim;47585452]I agree with TB's idea of a patreon like system where its "encouraged" donations for the modders to receive. Valve could take a small cut and everyone wins.[/QUOTE] Indeed, implementing a system like Patreon would probably be better than putting previously free mods behind a paywall. Those who develop quality content do deserve to be rewarded for their efforts, but when you take something free and make it cost money, people fail to see the point in putting a pricetag on it.

Couldn't someone just download a mod, copy the content files elsewhere, refund it, and put the files back into their Skyrim folder? I doubt they've changed the way Skyrim mods work.

I'm just gonna point out its bullshit that mods for games developed by other companies, has the money going into the pocket of Valve.

[QUOTE=Swilly;47590846]I'm just gonna point out its bullshit that mods for games developed by other companies, has the money going into the pocket of Valve.[/QUOTE] Not all of it is going to Valve.

[QUOTE=Swilly;47590846]I'm just gonna point out its bullshit that mods for games developed by other companies, has the money going into the pocket of Valve.[/QUOTE] If anything, it should be more of a 25/50/25. 25% to the mod creator, 50% to the game devs, and the remaining 25% to Valve. Not an ideal split, but it's better than the unnecessary lion's share that Valve scarfs down.

[QUOTE=ironman17;47590931]If anything, it should be more of a 25/50/25. 25% to the mod creator, 50% to the game devs, and the remaining 25% to Valve. Not an ideal split, but it's better than the unnecessary lion's share that Valve scarfs down.[/QUOTE] That's probably exactly what it is. 25% to the creator, and the remaining 75% being divided up between Valve, Bethesda Games, Bethesda Softworks, and Zenimax. We just don't know exactly how that 75% divides.

[QUOTE=DMGaina;47589943]At this point it's make money with your mod and 75% goes to Valve and Bethesda or make no money (like it was all these years before) and give 75% of $0 to Valve and Bethesda. And as I mentioned before, it's a mod, when you bought Skyrim, you only payed for the use rights of the game and that's it, you never paid for the engine and the distribution or rights to sell user generated content! To be objective and brutally honest here, the modder actually makes money of someone else's work in this case.[/QUOTE] That's pretty bullshit, it's not like the developers of the original game doesn't get anything out of having a modding scene, look at Elder scrolls and the newer fallout's, those games are objectively shit, but mods make them worth playing again and again. There is nothing about this that is a good deal for the modder or consumers. The only ones winning here are the publishers, and you should have realized that by now. Go look at early access, how many great games did that push out? I can count them on one hand. This pay-for-mod bullshittery will only lead to an inflated market of shit mods made by kids trying to cash in on the newest thing. Like Early access.

[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;47590801]Couldn't someone just download a mod, copy the content files elsewhere, refund it, and put the files back into their Skyrim folder? I doubt they've changed the way Skyrim mods work.[/QUOTE] It's not just mods that work like that, official expansions are plugins too. There was a time when some people were just randomly given Dawnguard without paying for it and when Steam fixed it they still kept it because of how it works. Anyway, I absolutely hate this. I was always so fond of Valve and now they are pulling off all this shit.

I think this is ridiculous. Look I understand wanting to get paid for the shit you make, I've made mods with people for Unreal Tournament, FF7, HL, etc. and getting bitched at when you are devoting a ton of free time and effort is annoying at best and motivation killing at worst. At the same time however, the whole reason I was introduced/attracted to mods in the first place was because of their capabilities of extending the life of the game and being free. Free excuses a lot of things. Free excuses a lack of quality control, a lack of content, lack of consistency, and it helps justify (IMO) your time spent on it. Once you introduce payment, it ceases to be just another extension of the game and becomes a product for the game - now quality becomes a factor a lot more, time you get out of it, all those other factors, and issues that could be excused by the creators prior now start to fade since they are literally getting paid to do it so that stuff becomes expected, and because [B]you[/B] gave them your money. The main reason I want to buy Black Mesa on steam was because their work was so professional it didn't feel like a mod which made me believe they deserve it - and they still already released it for free and aren't dropping support for the free version either. Not every mod is going to be BM quality. Not every mod team can manage to devote the time or patience to do that, but even so that price tag is gonna make you feel like you are wasting money if the mod isn't good enough whether by developer ineptitude or even genuine effort that failed. And then you have the smaller mods which slightly alter gameplay - this whole thing is literally turning modding into user-made DLC that's lower quality. Stuff like that from developers in a good scenario, I usually feel like "well it's not as big as some mods, or doesn't have everything I'd want but the dev's work is much higher quality than mods so I'm happy" Donations are a good idea, this is not.

Amen to that, people expect quality for their dolla. Also, I had no idea that you could mod Final Fantasy VII. What kind of mods are we talking about here, anything game-changing?

[QUOTE=DMGaina;47589943]At this point it's make money with your mod and 75% goes to Valve and Bethesda or make no money (like it was all these years before) and give 75% of $0 to Valve and Bethesda. And as I mentioned before, it's a mod, when you bought Skyrim, you only payed for the use rights of the game and that's it, you never paid for the engine and the distribution or rights to sell user generated content! [B]To be objective and brutally honest here, the modder actually makes money of someone else's work in this case.[/B] I like the idea of paying modders trough official channels, I really do, I hope to see some better deals like this in near future, don't get me wrong, but I do think that this is the best deal they could have gotten and I am also NOT defending Valve or Bethesda but I do think it's a GOOD deal [B]so far[/B] given the circumstances, it might change once big total conversions want to hop on the profit train. Also, nothing speaks against still using patreon or paypal donations - it still works as greyzone since you are not paying directly for a mod. What I am more concerned of, is other users exploiting this system by start selling cheat weapons (for instance) ,other small bullshit mods or even stolen one for extremely high prices.[/QUOTE] I really, honestly would like to know how you managed to get to that point through a logical thought process. I can possibly agree the game devs might need a bit of compensation (just as a compromise, I actually think the game devs created the game and whatever has been done afterwards as a mod is entirely the effort of the mod developer, even if it is simply arranging premade rooms in an order and calling it a dungeon), but saying that you are profiting off someone else's work by modding and prefacing it with "I'm being brutally honest" is bullshit. The game devs already did their work and they were paid for it. If the game comes with modding tools it is for the community to work and develop their own mods. At no point do the devs come into the picture again. And if the modding tools are released with the game then you are paying for them when you buy the game anyway. I am not against fair compensation for quality work. I fully support mod developers working on huge projects asking for donations or being supported by patreon, but asking them to give the majority of their earnings to a company that has already been compensated for what they have produced simply does not sit well with me.

Lol the" modders" of course can make money off someone elses work. With THIS SYSTEM. It's currently valid to buy a high quality model in the internet, make it into a mod for like 50 cents or something and boom. When there are more games you can even release it MULTIPLE TIMES.

imo, now that donating to a dev isn't "sketchy" i think that should be the main focus of the new system how does the refunding work? do you get it in the form of steam cash?

[QUOTE=ironman17;47591143]Amen to that, people expect quality for their dolla. Also, I had no idea that you could mod Final Fantasy VII. What kind of mods are we talking about here, anything game-changing?[/QUOTE] I've done model/animation mods, I don't do the gameplay changing stuff but there's tools for it and it doesn't seem to difficult to get into, just time consuming. [url=http://forums.qhimm.com]Qhimm Forums[/url] are the hub for it and there's all sorts of tools for that stuff, a mod manager, UI overhauls and retranslations, and tons of gameplay and gfx mods. Mods such as the hardcore mod or new threat mod add things like higher difficulty/different strategies and brand new boss and enemy encounters.

[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;47590941]That's probably exactly what it is. 25% to the creator, and the remaining 75% being divided up between Valve, Bethesda Games, Bethesda Softworks, and Zenimax. We just don't know exactly how that 75% divides.[/QUOTE] It's been stated by Chesko already 25% Modder 45% Developer 30% Valve [img]http://i.imgur.com/zzP6hkQ.png[/img]

Contrary to what he says in the video, I don't think anyone is opposed to modders getting paid for their work. Everyone is fine with donations, but there's something wrong when we're forced to pay for a mod.

[QUOTE=Fetret;47591277]I really, honestly would like to know how you managed to get to that point through a logical thought process. [/QUOTE] Simple, I work now for 4 years in the videogame industry. Over one year of these years, I have worked in the marketing department of a publishing company that specializes on retail and steam games. The project I was assigned to was a AAA game. I do know the crap developers have to go trough to get a game on Steam and how much they have to pump into Valve's butt. But compared to what developers have to give to Valve alone, the 25% you give as a modder to Valve for Steam promotion and to Bethesda for the game AND ENGINE, it's actually very very VERY soft. What you absolutely fail to understand is that [B]making profit from mods as a private person is NOT LEGAL because the modders don't own any rights[/B] other than using and playing the game, that's it. [QUOTE=Fetret;47591277] I am not against fair compensation for quality work. I fully support mod developers working on huge projects asking for donations or being supported by patreon, but asking them to give the majority of their earnings to a company that has already been compensated for what they have produced simply does not sit well with me. [/QUOTE] Again, this is the point that most people don't understand, there are a lot of of stuff there IS to pay in such a case. Of course Valve and Bethesda gets a profit but it's not a full 75%, especially not for Valve since they do not own the Gamebryo Engine and Skyrim. Imagine you are doing this without the workshop crap. You gotta license the engine, make an agreement with Bethesda, do some promotion and get it trough the greenlight process if you don't have a publisher... if you have one, the publisher is going to take the last penny away from you. Now to make clear where I am standing. I DO like the idea of people getting money and [B]the 25% are no big issue[/B] if you understand how this crap actually works. Garry understands the situation aswell and he thinks it is a good idea, Not because he just THINKS that it is a good idea, because he went trough these processes aswell and he knows his numbers with Gmod and Rust. [B]But![/B] And this is a big and concerning one. It could all end in a huge clusterfuck since the workshop is such a shitty place to get this rolling. People will start doing mini cheat mods for small prices like 49cents or 2,49dollars and people will pay for those... other people doing proper mods want a piece of the cake and hop on the train. Bam we will have an economy running and it's going to be a terrible thing. I do think that this will change PC gaming once it turns out to be profitable for publishers. I can see Activision or EA hopping on this train in near future and allowing modding under similar and worse conditions that might even leave the modder pay a fee to actually mod for the game or release community map packs. We don't know yet, but publishers are creative if it comes to ripping off people and I am scared.

[QUOTE=Wormy;47590755]The sad thing is that the majority of people that don't like this idea won't make Valve change their mind and remove it/improve it.[/QUOTE] For other companies I would agree with this, but valve has in the past made swift changes when communities had outcries. One of memory being the weather effects in dota a year ago so I have some trust in valve but I think the real question comes of Bethesda. We'll have to see the week go by and how it works. Personally Valve should have just a donate option on the steam workshop instead of the paywall system. I can see full scale mods that are practically new games being sold on the store, but not petty minor changes that are seen so far on the skyrim workshop.

[QUOTE=AnnieOakley;47592682]For other companies I would agree with this, but valve has in the past made swift changes when communities had outcries. One of memory being the weather effects in dota a year ago so I have some trust in valve but I think the real question comes of Bethesda. We'll have to see the week go by and how it works. Personally Valve should have just a donate option on the steam workshop instead of the paywall system. I can see full scale mods that are practically new games being sold on the store, but not petty minor changes that are seen so far on the skyrim workshop.[/QUOTE] We know that valve always changes when it's made a bad decision that's unpopular. That's why Greenlight has been improved and HL3 is out.

[QUOTE=doomkiwi;47593010]We know that valve always changes when it's made a bad decision that's unpopular. That's why Greenlight has been improved and HL3 is out.[/QUOTE] I'm talking about instant reception. Hl3 and greenlight developed over a long period of time.

[QUOTE=Scot;47585422]"modders dont create content out of the kindness of their hearts" how presumptuous of you[/QUOTE] someone made me penrose tiles for gmod for me in the intention of making a lua script that used them, which if I ever find the time to go back to gmod and write scripts I will. But he did it out of the kindness of his heart, and I would do the same because my heart lies not in vanity but in the hope to help others. (automatic tiling of penrose tiles to make twist and turns, I get my head around it, maybe over thought it all these years). Also when more then one person helps create content, who owns that content? I've been told, have a contract when making code or other engineering work even if you get along at the time being. Linux and BSD community has problems but it has success in not having content behind the paywall.