Totalbiscuit on Skyrim's "Paid Modding" - General

[QUOTE=Sharker;47592481]Contrary to what he says in the video, I don't think anyone is opposed to modders getting paid for their work. Everyone is fine with donations, but there's something wrong when we're forced to pay for a mod.[/QUOTE] Forced? You're forced to pay for a mod as much as you are forced to buy the next iPhone.

I find some of his points a serious joke. [B]Firstly[/B] modders do mod out of their love for the game not for monetary gain. [B]Secondly[/B] what we often see from mods are modeling and texturing not scripting. I can't count the number of games that don't support scripting so the idea that veteran pros from the gaming industry can make a living is bollocks. [B]Thirdly[/B] the idea that someone can pay the rent for a mod is ridiculous we are talking about a one time payment not a recurring payment. I personally have sold work and have never made enough to pay the rent. At best I could make an extra couple hundred dollars a month. I have some others thoughts on the issue but I am responding to his points he made. I do agree with modders being paid but I have so many issue not stated. For instance with what should qualify for something that could/should be sold.

Wouldn't a company like Autodesk want a slice of that money for people making mods without a commercial license?

Here all these years I thought valve was the good guy, but I guess at the end of the day they're a mega company in a capitalist world out to make money.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47594614]Forced? You're forced to pay for a mod as much as you are forced to buy the next iPhone.[/QUOTE] What kind of argument is this? For years and years modding was free. It was one of the (if not the biggest) major draws to PC gaming. To be able to extend the life of your game; by hours, days, even weeks, FOR FREE. iPhones have always had a price on them. This is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard. Valve is really dropping the ball on this one. Under no circumstances will charging for something that was originally free ever be acceptable. Optional donations are one thing, but to think that my modding experience might be limited due to a paywall is just bullshit. I am 100% against this, I don't think anything good can come out of it. Add a donation button if you think modders should be paid for their work, but don't fucking strong-arm us into paying for something that used to be free.

[QUOTE=villa;47609064]This is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard. Valve is really dropping the ball on this one. Under no circumstances will charging for something that was originally free ever be acceptable. Optional donations are one thing, but to think that my modding experience might be limited due to a paywall is just bullshit.[/QUOTE] You're blaming Valve but ultimately it's entirely up to the modders whether they charge or not. You want to bitch at somebody, bitch at them. And if they call you a selfish asshole for doing so well that's entirely deserved.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;47588684]If a modder suddenly decides to take a mod that's been free for 4 years and make it charged out of the blue then I'll kindly tell them to fuck right off and never use any of their shit ever again. [/QUOTE] Gmod 10?

[QUOTE=Satane;47606767]Why is valve getting heat for this? Are modders forced to charge for their items ??[/QUOTE] They've opened the floodgates. Steam is the only platform where devs can "successfully" profit off mods so if Valve told Bethesda to fuckoff with their idea there's no doubt we wouldn't see it happen anywhere. And it burns more since everyone wants Valve to focus on releasing AAA games instead of their next scheme to milk even more cash for their massively profitable empire

Modern gaming sucks.

[QUOTE=Satane;47612385]I still fail to see a problem with people getting paid for their work.[/QUOTE] But mods have always been free I want my free stuff! The problem is that modders get only 25%.

[QUOTE=Satane;47612385]I still fail to see a problem with people getting paid for their work.[/QUOTE] That isn't, and has never been the issue. The issue is what money does to a community that relies on each other freely sharing information and techniques, as well as their work itself. Lets just run the scenario of how mods, a freely shared area of work, is going to function with money being involved. How is it going to work when a mod is broken by a patch? How's it work when people can't share how things are done, or made? There is no freely available database on "how do I do this". That burden is shared by the community. How do you think the community is going to share information when every piece of information you have that someone else doesn't have, is money in your pocket? seriously. Think about it. [editline]27th April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=itisjuly;47612463]But mods have always been free I want my free stuff! The problem is that modders get only 25%.[/QUOTE] I wish you'd stop shit posting about this topic and realize how in depth the responses to your weak and already destroyed arguments are.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47612510] I wish you'd stop shit posting about this topic and realize how in depth the responses to your weak and already destroyed arguments are.[/QUOTE] You keep talking about depth everywhere. It means nothing. There is no deep sea exploration when it comes to the paid mod issue. Stop making it more complicated than it actually is. [editline]27th April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47612510] How is it going to work when a mod is broken by a patch? How's it work when people can't share how things are done, or made? There is no freely available database on "how do I do this". That burden is shared by the community. How do you think the community is going to share information when every piece of information you have that someone else doesn't have, is money in your pocket? seriously. Think about it. [/QUOTE] Out of all the issues, you pick these? These are really easy to solve. Patch issue - developers are not stupid(kinda). They either will only allow mod selling for games that no longer get patches (aka skyrim) or they will be patching with thought involved as to not break everything. Hell, they can can even release patched version as separate optional one. There's a ton of ways to solve this issue. About info - if real money is involved it will be in devs' best interest to release tools and documentations that allow people make them money. You don't just make paid mods an option but then get no money since no one knows how to use your tools. If I made commission money for mods people made for my game I sure as hell would release tutorials and stuff so I can make more money. That's basic business 101

lmao he's not making it complicated at all he's just fucking right

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47612569]You keep talking about depth everywhere. It means nothing. There is no deep sea exploration when it comes to the paid mod issue. Stop making it more complicated than it actually is.[/QUOTE] [editline]27th April 2015[/editline] So, rather than respond to arguments you say "What depth? This is a black and white issue"? Are you fucking kidding me? Are you fucking serious? This is pathetic argumentation. It is not simple. It is not black and white, it is complicated, and you insisting it isn't, is worthless. You've ignored SO MANY fucking arguments that deal with this issue as it is in real life. Not the imaginary version of it that you keep arguing for. [QUOTE] Out of all the issues, you pick these? These are really easy to solve. [/QUOTE] Oh good, so not only do you have the arrogance to say these aren't problems, but then you have the arrogance to say "those issues?" [QUOTE] Patch issue - developers are not stupid(kinda). [/QUOTE] No, but they are lazy and will take any chance to avoid work if it saves the company money. We know this is how it works. [QUOTE]They either will only allow mod selling for games that no longer get patches (aka skyrim) or they will be patching with thought involved as to not break everything.[/QUOTE] 1) that is all an assumption on your part and is not reflected by reality at all. 2) You REALLY don't understand how mods work, do you? [QUOTE]Hell, they can can even release patched version as separate optional one. There's a ton of ways to solve this issue.[/QUOTE] Sure, there's ways to solve this issue, that only the community will be able to implement as we've already heard from valve "This is your problem". [QUOTE]About info - if real money is involved it will be in devs' best interest to release tools and documentations that allow people make them money.[/QUOTE] Fair enough, but even still, that documentation is never, never in depth enough to mean that a modder doesn't rely on the community. [QUOTE]You don't just make paid mods an option but then get no money since no one knows how to use your tools. [/QUOTE] You're looking at this from the developer side. Not from the content creator/mod makers side where they will be in a place where community interaction and help is at an all time low. How do we know this? BECAUSE WE CAN LOOK AT FUCKING PRECEDENTS IN THE MODDING SCENE WHEN MONEY BECAME INVOLVED. WE KNOW HOW THIS IS GOING TO GO DOWN ALREADY. It has happened before. For fucks sakes man. [QUOTE]If I made commission money for mods people made for my game I sure as hell would release tutorials and stuff so I can make more money. That's basic business 101[/QUOTE] Again, you really think the developers who are now going to be cutting back their products knowing full well the modding community is going to 1) fix their mistakes and 2) flesh out their games for them are going to make full detailed modding tools so that the community NEVER relies on itself and what it previously prided itself on trading freely? Fuck dude, I'm tired of reading your posts because it really is like you haven't even taken a god damn minute to think about this fucking issue. Calling it a "Non complex" issue is indicative of that on it's own.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47612656] So, rather than respond to arguments you say "What depth? This is a black and white issue"? Are you fucking kidding me? Are you fucking serious? This is pathetic argumentation. It is not simple. It is not black and white, it is complicated, and you insisting it isn't, is worthless. You've ignored SO MANY fucking arguments that deal with this issue as it is in real life. Not the imaginary version of it that you keep arguing for. [/QUOTE] Why are you so negative and seemingly angry? You know why some call people who oppose paid mods entitled? Not because they want free mods, it's because they act like this. Arguing is fine and all but when some people get so angry and downright offensive it really doesn't help anyone. If you think I'm arrogant then why even bother arguing with me? With a tone like that you surely won't convince or make anyone on the opposing side think about it.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47612709]Why are you so negative and seemingly angry? You know why some call people who oppose paid mods entitled? Not because they want free mods, it's because they act like this. Arguing is fine and all but when some people get so angry and downright offensive it really doesn't help anyone. If you think I'm arrogant then why even bother arguing with me? With a tone like that you surely won't convince or make anyone on the opposing side think about it.[/QUOTE] The fact is you said there's nothing to be talked about here and that this isn't a complicated issue. It is. Why would I respond like you're a thoughtful poster when you regularly, and routinely ignore anything anyone would say to you under the guise of "This is black and white". You're the one not garnering any sympathy from anyone when you're the one saying that an issue is so easily understood that any argument about it is pointless and stupid because again, as you have said, this is a black and white, simple issue. No, it's far more complicated than that and when people have tried to tell you this, YOU IGNORE THEM. No wonder people are mad at you. [editline]27th April 2015[/editline] I mean fuck dude, I give you a point by point break down of your points, and rather than argue you go "see, i'm right because you're too angry to have a point here". no. Stop it. Why would anyone take you seriously if that's your view? You refuse to argue why you're right, you just say "I'm right".

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47612790] I mean fuck dude, I give you a point by point break down of your points, and rather than argue you go "see, i'm right because you're too angry to have a point here". no. Stop it. Why would anyone take you seriously if that's your view? You refuse to argue why you're right, you just say "I'm right".[/QUOTE] I'm right? No. Absolutely not. But I also refuse to believe the opposite side is 100% right. The whole paid mods system has ups and downs, it's a young, never before done thing. Of course it will have tons of issues. That's understandable and I acknowledge the issues with how Valve does it, but I believe mods can be monetized with a proper implementation. My gripe is that anti side wants this thing gone and everyone lynched. I think the system has potential and needs a lot of refining. Most arguments people say about the issue can be fixed. They're not at the moment, but they can be fixed with time, time that many are not willing to give and instead compare Valve to fucking nazi Germany. My stance is simply that Valve's implementation is very rushed and not thought out but ultimately paid mods can be a successful thing for everyone.

It seems like most of the counter arguments saying mods should be paid assume that everyone has enough money. I don't really care what "new talent" is going to start making high quality mods if I can't even afford it. In my mind mods have always been free additions to the game that improve your experience without having to purchase an expansion or DLC. I think that donation systems are the only direction to go that won't disclude large audiences

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47612826]I'm right? No. Absolutely not. But I also refuse to believe the opposite side is 100% right. The whole paid mods system has ups and downs, it's a young, never before done thing. Of course it will have tons of issues. That's understandable and I acknowledge the issues with how Valve does it, but I believe mods can be monetized with a proper implementation. My gripe is that anti side wants this thing gone and everyone lynched. I think the system has potential and needs a lot of refining. Most arguments people say about the issue can be fixed. They're not at the moment, but they can be fixed with time, time that many are not willing to give and instead compare Valve to fucking nazi Germany. My stance is simply that Valve's implementation is very rushed and not thought out but ultimately paid mods can be a successful thing for everyone.[/QUOTE] I thought I'd long ago made it clear selling mods is fine. It's how it's done, and what it might very well do to the modding community that is up for contention here. It isn't a "new" area, we've already seen what money does to mods. How? Well, just remember the mod scene for Minecraft, and what hanging pennies in front of them(In the form of ad revenue) did to their community. They collapsed inwards and imploded. The scene as it is now, is considerably more dead than ever before. Total War games also have a huge modding base where money has been involved previously and the issues that we're predicting, and already seeing here, have been rampant everywhere money has gone before. Paid mods could be a good thing, but I highly doubt it'll work out in this implementation or almost any other implementation a company will actually do. Valve has shown that this is in our hands entirely and they don't give a shit. So, not only is it unlikely to happen in the very ideal form this would require to be fair to everyone, it's being implemented by people who actually don't care about changing it. It's up to us. Just like Early Access. Just like Greenlight. And both of those have been failures with more cash in type things being developed than anything else, by such a large margin. The anti side wants it gone because they see the near impossible odds of getting this to a point where both sides would accept it and be happy. They see the inevitable sliding of this into another form of nickel and diming that we're already being hit with by everyone from every angle. We don't want more of that, why do you? We don't want to give game developers the chance to make games that don't work even more so than they already do(Unless you deny the idea that game developers are already releasing buggy, glitchy games), but now they'll have the choice to make the community develop those fixes, and sell them? I don't see how you don't see the negatives of this that are unavoidable, and we're already seeing the store go down that route. And not everyone is well informed, nor do they care to be, that's not their problem, but it results in being all of our problem. Unless you think microtransactions and DLC being the plague they are now are not only okay, but aren't being bought by the masses?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47612982]Just like Early Access. Just like Greenlight. And both of those have been failures with more cash in type things being developed than anything else, by such a large margin.[/QUOTE] I agree with the rest but I want to know more about this. EA was a stupid idea all along but Greenlight has given the chance for a lot of indies to get their games on steam. Without greenlight many of them wouldn't be in the store. Sure there is junk, but there is also a lot of truly great game projects done by teams as small as one person. Without greenlight or getting on steam the chances of their success would be almost nonexistent. So to me greenlight was a success because even though it let through junk, it also let a lot of talent in where as otherwise they would've had a really hard time. So to me, if the ability to sell mods means at least a few great ones, it was a success. There is junk, there always will be but junk should never be a reason to not go forward with an idea.

So the fact that the vast majority of Greenlight titles are various different unity or UE4 cash ins that don't even have their own textures, props, objects, or anything else should be reason enough as to why it's a shitty system. Sure, a gem or two have been made but the fact is, almost all the money funneled into that service is not going to those gems. Why are mods going to be different?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47613168] Sure, a gem or two have been made but the fact is, almost all the money funneled into that service is not going to those gems. [/QUOTE] Source needed? Because I've never seen any cashgrab games in top selling while I've seen plenty of gems there.

it basically depends on people voting with their wallet and hope it falls into an order, but i doubt its gonna happen as long as anyone buys small time mods. it makes sense for mods that people have put a lot of effort into to be able to be rewarded, but my issue now is that so many 2 bit mods which were previously free are now charged for in attempt to cash in. it seems fair enough paying $1-2 for a small mod, but ES is the kind of game you usually load up with 30-50 mods, and i dont really fancy paying $50-100 towards modding my game. garry's comparison of his game once being a mod and others too falls short here, because it would make sense to pay an amount of money for a huge mod that basically overhauls the game, not $1-5 for every mod you want to download. its greedy on the part of modders too. not to sound entitled, but the mods created on there were created knowing that they would likely never receive any payment for them, and then its kind of a middle finger to all the people that used, enjoyed and provided support for them to turn around and say 'you can use it anymore until you pay me'

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47613343]Source needed? Because I've never seen any cashgrab games in top selling while I've seen plenty of gems there.[/QUOTE] bad rats.