[QUOTE='[Green];33474630']Since most people here are discussing this from a non-religious perspective, I'm debating whether I should really post my actual opinion. Oh, what the hell.
I believe there is a free will. Mainly because of religious bias, but even if there isn't free will,[B] it's not going to change anything thinking about it.[/B][/QUOTE]
it's not like we have a choice.
I agree with you, posting your opinion is pretty pointless since your argument is basically "we have free will because magic"
I believe don't really have that much free will, we are shaped by the people around us, who are shaped by the environment we are in. The loop means that even a single change in the area, environment or things we've been through becomes reshaped and moulded as it get's passed on from person to person. The further you get away from the location where it started, the more complex the result is. Imagine thousands of these 'ripples' happening every day.
That's free will, free will comes from our decision to react with our environment, and the people who shape you most.
even if we do not have free will it does not matter as we are obviously unable to discern between having and not having free will, and so it doesnt matter to us because, simply, we are too dumb to tell the difference
[QUOTE=Satane;33403454]If we don't have free will, we have a fate.
Technically we don't have free will
[editline]23rd November 2011[/editline]
let me put it this way. let's say one day, we create a supercomputer which could simulate earth and its history with 100% accuracy. so if decide to watch hitler from his birth to his death he'd do everything the same no matter how many times we run the simulation.
and than we change something. we show hitler his future. his actions would change, changing his fate.
we can't change our fate unless something impossible happens.[/QUOTE]
it says the same due to it being like a video
[QUOTE=Eltro102;33505187]even if we do not have free will it does not matter as we are obviously unable to discern between having and not having free will, and so it doesnt matter to us because, simply, we are too dumb to tell the difference[/QUOTE]
Nice cop out
[QUOTE=gra;33511358]Nice cop out[/QUOTE]
what? atleast try to make an argument rather than just going hurr you disagree with me
[QUOTE=Eltro102;33565144]what? atleast try to make an argument rather than just going hurr you disagree with me[/QUOTE]
You copped out because you said that this argument doesn't matter to us. That's not the point of this argument and maybe somehow, through quantum physics or something, it theoretically could be important.
[QUOTE=gra;33567784]You copped out because you said that this argument doesn't matter to us. That's not the point of this argument and maybe somehow, through quantum physics or something, it theoretically could be important.[/QUOTE]
I don't think his point is totally irrelevant. From our perspective we'll always feel a sense of freedom in our actions. Apparent physical determinacy goes over our heads because we're so epistemologically limited and can't begin to comprehend cause and effect across such a huge scale.
I'd say it's very philosophically interesting, but ultimately the question of free will has very little standing on most of our day-to-day existences in any meaningful way.
There are many philosophies and ethics that are based off of free will. I don't get as angry at people because I understand that it's not their fault in the slightest. Understanding that there's no free will also gives you a deeper understanding of how people work.
Our brain is governed by biochemistry, but what we are and what we think is just a result of different mixes of particles and atoms, but your brain does mix them freely which means it is in fact free will. It does have its limits of mixes, but who said you can't be free in a limited space?
Also, you have to define what free is, because it's only a concept, like time.
[QUOTE=CrashLemon;33587430]Our brain is governed by biochemistry, but what we are and what we think is just a result of different mixes of particles and atoms, but your brain does mix them freely which means it is in fact free will. It does have its limits of mixes, but who said you can't be free in a limited space?[/QUOTE]
It mixes them freely? So the chemicals in your brain mix with actual metaphysical freedom from the laws of physics?
[QUOTE=CrashLemon;33587430]Also, you have to define what free is, because [b]it's only a concept, like time.[/b][/QUOTE]
Don't even
[QUOTE=sgman91;33419935]Religion would be the only reason to think people have free will. From a non religious viewpoint arguing for free will would be comparable to arguing for God. (absolutely no reason to believe that it exists)[/QUOTE]
I object, my (Christian) father always taught me that God is the only being with free will because he is the one who planned everything. I'm not the best at explaining these types of things.
[QUOTE=CrashLemon;33587430]Our brain is governed by biochemistry, but what we are and what we think is just a result of different mixes of particles and atoms, but your brain does mix them freely which means it is in fact free will. It does have its limits of mixes, but who said you can't be free in a limited space?
Also, you have to define what free is, because it's only a concept, like time.[/QUOTE]
Agree totally agree, our biochemistry and all that shit (the chemicals in our brains) is what makes us so.. one of a kind. Definitely "survival of the fittest" if you want to put it all natural lol.
As for time.. it's a slow, podding thing but our timezone, as in our planets timezone, it's what we live on so it's a good concept, people have figured it all out with them scientists doing their research. And that's thanks to our brains and the chemicals.. again. It's pretty cool and fascinating I guess.
[QUOTE=sonny99;33588449]I object, my (Christian) father always taught me that God is the only being with free will because he is the one who planned everything. I'm not the best at explaining these types of things.[/QUOTE]
But how could he judge beings he created by whether their actions are right or wrong in his eyes if he created them without the ability to choose?
In my opinion the fact that two people act differently in the same situation partially proves that Free Will exists
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;33588728]But how could he judge beings he created by whether their actions are right or wrong in his eyes if he created them without the ability to choose?[/QUOTE]
That's a question that I don't have the answer to.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;33588110]It mixes them freely? So the chemicals in your brain mix with actual metaphysical freedom from the laws of physics?
Don't even[/QUOTE]
Well, what is free from the laws of physics? If there's nothing that is free from the laws of physics then free is only a concept as it doesn't really exists.
[QUOTE=superstepa;33589178]In my opinion the fact that two people act differently in the same situation partially proves that Free Will exists[/QUOTE]
But that's never happened. There have never been two exactly identical people in exactly identical circumstances.
I know free will is very unlikely to exist in the form we think of as you are not determined to do something. But the brain is a very complex system, which is impossible to predict so we do have free will as we can't predict what you are going to do 100%.
My only problem with the idea of a complex determined system as the brain is why am I me? Which is a confusing question, and difficult to explain even the question, let alone possible answers so why bother, it doesn't mean much to me anyway.
[editline]6th December 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=sltungle;33052194]But that only really applies for the small scale. On our everyday scale quantum effects don't dominate.
If you shoot a billiard ball down the centre of a billiard table and it has only momentum in one direction and has no spin (angular momentum on it), and it impacts another billiard ball 'square-on' (an odd term for a sphere, but go with it) then classical physics will calculate (and correctly so) that the impacted ball with move directly backwards. Determinism in action - cause and effect. It works for our length scale.
The statement 'determinism is probably wrong' is an all encompassing statement which applies to all length scales and I don't agree with that.[/QUOTE]
That is a approximation, and on everyday scales yes it is as close as you are going to get it. Your brain is a complex system with many neural pathways. A quantum event could easily affect the path of an electron and hence make you behave differently. This doesn't make free will more likely but does mean we could be affected by quantum events and the multiverse can work in some interpretations of it.
[QUOTE=LF9000;33046675]I don't think we do. It would be terrible if we found out for sure, but the truth is shit.
The premise of not having free will, I think, goes something like this.
If we can predict the motions of a single particle, and we extend that to everything, we can theoretically compute what will happen, and what has happened based on some math.
Meaning the reason why we appear to have free will is because of the initial conditions in the Big Bang.
Perhaps the reason why 9/11 happened is because of some particle not being several nanometers to the left. Chaos theory does a good job of explaining what this is.
The whole calculating thing assumes no one is able to see the results, because then you can (presumably) decide to do the exactly opposite, changing the future.
I think I have it down.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
If a supercomputer existed in the "start" of the existence itself and it had the ability to take in all the information in all of the existence and then calculate it's next move down to it's actual movement (fuck nanometers and nanoseconds, that's still inaccurate) then you would be able to predict the future.
Because everything started with whatever happened in the start. Because rock a moves to destination b the outcome is c. Any interaction is doomed to happen because the things that interact had a movement that would lead to it's happening. Everything is just a completely logical reaction to what previously happened. Everything happens because of everything else. The grass in Florida, the worker in China, the drug dealer in Berlin, everyone and everything will in the end impact your life because they impacted other peoples lives which affected other peoples lives which eventually leads to your life, and you do the exact same thing to everyone and everything else.
[QUOTE=sp00ks;33052049]Quantum physics. Doesn't mean we have free will or anything, shit is just random instead of determined.[/QUOTE]
I don't think Quantum Physics is random at all. We just don't understand it or can't see the differences causing it to look random.
For some people a computer crashing seems random. In reality if you go deeper you'll see that it's all a logical reaction where some component or software caused another component or software to go haywire. In the same way what they observe is some seemingly identical movements and atoms doing the same things, but in reality they were very slightly different causing a completely different reaction because that's how they work.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;33052585]First can we define free will because a lot of these arguments are almost nonsensical. Is it being able to make a choice based on information you don't have and being able to pull it out of your ass? Is it being able to make decisions from a supernatural perspective? Is it being able to choose something completely randomly rather than how you would make a choice? How do you test any of this with any relevance if you cannot determine the difference between a lack of choice and a sensible choice or turning it into a precognition test?
It's not a simple concept, ascertain what you are trying to disprove before making all kinds of stupid arguments.[/QUOTE]
Free will is the ability to make a choice on your own.
We don't have free will because we just follow what we logically would do. Because we are in a certain environment with/without certain people with whom we have certain information about which makes us think and act in such a way and etc etc. There are millions of factors playing in on your behaviour and thoughts every second because everything factors in on everything else. The environment affects the way you approach people, but the people also affect how you approach the environment, and in the environment there ar many things affecting your behaviour be it things like rocks, grass, litter, fences or tables, then there is the colours, the light or lack of it, the shapes and forms and EVERY FUCKING THING (which is impossible to list for a normal human being since there are many things on atom levels that have to be taken into account as well).
And basically what I'm trying to say here is that you have the illusion of free will, you have choices, but you are destinied to pick one specific choice because it's logical to you because of all the things around you as well as everything that has happened in the past make you think in such a way that you land on a logical conclusion that causes your answer. You could go right, but because of everything that is factored in you went left, and there was absolutely no way you would go right, it's simply impossible.
[QUOTE=Satane;33153588]of course we have free will which isn't determined by our ancestors. what the fuck have you been smoking?
let's say you have a napkin in your hands. you can either decide to drop it or keep it in your hands.
this choice will be completely undetermined by the dna, but the moral set of rules you were brought up believing, your surroundings, even what you've eaten.[/QUOTE]
Nobody implied that DNA was the only thing that affected the concept of free will.
DNA is just one of the billions upon billions of things that affect you and destroys the concept of free will.
If you think DNA doesn't affect you then you forget that the DNA is the reason your body is as it is. Compare a cripples life towards your own and you'll know what I'm talking about. Or even easier, compare a girl to a boy.
[QUOTE=Liem;33153698]What you do is controlled by everything you interact with. Everything will leave an imprint on you, humans start as a blank slate and we and filled in through out the course of our lives. We make choices
based on what has left an imprint on our mind. So in a way free will both does and Doesn't exist[/QUOTE]
Pretty much, but we don't start as a blank slate. The moment our brain is functional it starts and it is already affected by the DNA and instincts which allows it to live, act and learn.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;33407836]Well, our brains has gave us the intellectual ability to create tools, make sharp ends, split an atom, create capital cities and basically everything.
So I don't understand how you can even say there is no free will? Of course there is.
But creating something from nothing..? What's that supposed to mean?[/QUOTE]
HAHAHA.
Our brains have noticed that a rock is hard and when thrown at people it hurts. Thus throwing rocks became a weapon. The same process is applied to absolutely everything. Our brain observes and learns, what it has learned it applies to other things, and before you know it you have a spear and a hammer.
It is not free will, if anything it is proof that free will doesn't exist because the principle behind inventing things is using the very same process that makes up our lives. Having one thing lead to the other.
Free will is something that doesn't exist but should be treated as if it does. You chose your own set destiny. If you go with the attitude that "everything happens for a reason so I just won't give a fuck" you "chose" to make bad decisions. Free will is an important illusion that makes your destiny better.
[QUOTE=dgg;33615751]HAHAHA.
Our brains have noticed that a rock is hard and when thrown at people it hurts. Thus throwing rocks became a weapon. The same process is applied to absolutely everything. Our brain observes and learns, what it has learned it applies to other things, and before you know it you have a spear and a hammer.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, not long after our brain had noticed and learned that a heavy stone-like object can hurt in a blunt force trauma fashion, it learned how to split an atom in a tube.
So all I can say is that our brains' observational and learning capabilities are almost like limitless, unlike the rest of the animals who clearly lack something in their brains that we don't. Due to that, we are more free to do shit in our constricted world, we even feel boredom so thank God to the freedom of choices to do things like uhh.. watch TV?
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;33617685]Yeah, not long after our brain had noticed and learned that a heavy stone-like object can hurt in a blunt force trauma fashion, it learned how to split an atom in a tube.
So all I can say is that our brains' observational and learning capabilities are almost like limitless, unlike the rest of the animals who clearly lack something in their brains that we don't.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, sure, we learned how to split atoms 3000 years before christ.
Oh wait, no we didn't.
The only reason human beings are making all these tools and shit is because we have thumbs. That's the only reason. We could grip things and use them in ways no other animal can. Thus we could make tools out of rocks and sticks.
But I'm really not going to argue with you at all if you are so retarded to bring in splitting atoms next to the discovery of rocks as weapons.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;33617685]Yeah, not long after our brain had noticed and learned that a heavy stone-like object can hurt in a blunt force trauma fashion, it learned how to split an atom in a tube.
So all I can say is that our brains' observational and learning capabilities are almost like limitless, unlike the rest of the animals who clearly lack something in their brains that we don't.[/QUOTE]
Some species of monkey frequently use rocks to crush the brains of baby monkeys of nearby troops. It's quite vicious really.
The key reason humans are so intelligent compared to many animals is that we have adapted to use language in a representational fashion, and we have thumbs for object manipulation.
Solving problems in your mind, or insight learning, has been proven to exist in crows and probably exists in monkeys. Crows/ravens are one of the few species that is actually better off as a result of human expansion. There are plenty of amusing anecdotes and experiments. For example, some crows have taken to placing nuts on pedestrian crossings, letting a car run over the nut (thereby cracking it open), and then walking across on the 'walk' signal so they don't get run over themselves.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;33617685]Yeah, not long after our brain had noticed and learned that a heavy stone-like object can hurt in a blunt force trauma fashion, it learned how to split an atom in a tube.
So all I can say is that our brains' observational and learning capabilities are almost like limitless, unlike the rest of the animals who clearly lack something in their brains that we don't. Due to that, we are more free to do shit in our constricted world, we even feel boredom so thank God to the freedom of choices to do things like uhh.. watch TV?[/QUOTE]
Yes we do have something that the rest of the animal kingdom doesn't have, and that's the combination of thumbs, more cerebral cortex and complex social groups.
Also humans have [I]very[/I] little instinct because we have such a degree of neuroplasticity, that is, such a capacity to learn. That's why humans spend so many years in childhood, as opposed to a fly which lives a few days and runs almost entirely on instinctual behavior.
[QUOTE=Contag;33617876]Some species of monkey frequently use rocks to crush the brains of baby monkeys of nearby troops. It's quite vicious really.
The key reason humans are so intelligent compared to many animals is that we have adapted to use language in a representational fashion, and we have thumbs for object manipulation[/QUOTE]
And well, the reason we have managed to get a more complex and uniformed langage is because of our thumbs. Because thanks to them we can write and draw which made us able to form an alphabet that could be taught rather than rely on memory which eventually fades away or warps over time causing no consistency and makes communication outside of very basic and primitive things very hard.
You could basically say that most animals are bottlenecked by their body although there is a bit more to it.
A major fallacy that keeps being stated is that
X is made up of atoms
X's state can be predicted
Humans are made of atoms
Humans can be predicted
This is a syllogism in much the way that
A rock is not living
A rock is made out of atoms
A human is made of atoms
A human is not living
The issue is that there is a false predication that something acts in the same way despite it being from the same basic parts. It is affirming the consequent.
If the position of rocks can be predicted then human action be be predicted
The position of rocks can be predicted
Human action can be predicted
It is good to realize that the use of fallacy doesn't mean that free will exists, but it does mean that the argument doesn't work.
[QUOTE=Pepin;33621906]A major fallacy that keeps being stated is that
X is made up of atoms
X's state can be predicted
Humans are made of atoms
Humans can be predicted
This is a syllogism in much the way that
A rock is not living
A rock is made out of atoms
A human is made of atoms
A human is not living
The issue is that there is a false predication that something acts in the same way despite it being from the same basic parts. It is affirming the consequent.
If the position of rocks can be predicted then human action be be predicted
The position of rocks can be predicted
Human action can be predicted
It is good to realize that the use of fallacy doesn't mean that free will exists, but it does mean that the argument doesn't work.[/QUOTE]
That's not affirming the consequent. Affirming the consequent is an argument of the form:
P -> Q
Q
Therefore, P
That would have to be something like:
If something is made of atoms, then its position can be predicted
A human's position can be predicted
Therefore a human is made of atoms
None of those arguments were of that form. Your complaint is one against inductive reasoning.
The fact that in any given moment I can decide to type "rat" or "acorn" or whatnot seems to be proof enough for me.
Now some of you may say: "ah but don't you see? Thats the facade, its your biochemistry doing XYZ."
If I 'believe' I have the ability to enact my fate, and the result happens, it might as well be free-will for all intents and purposes.
[editline]7th December 2011[/editline]
Also consciousness is not a chemical reaction.
[QUOTE=Neolk;33622220]Also consciousness is not a chemical reaction.[/QUOTE]
Then what is it?
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