Gamergate doesn't waste energy 'denouncing' any ggers because it's pointless, that's not what the movement is about, and wasting time trying futilely to self-police will just draw attention away from the actual issue the movement was created to address.
in gg there are no main figureheads
the whole point of the gg movement structure is to be leader/figurehead-less. i have a equal amount of talking room as (for example) totalbiscuit. just because he has more followers doesnt mean hes a figurehead
gg is basically "i am spartacus"
The reason Gamergate looks like it has Leaders is because the people don't acknowledge small people, like me for example. I am not important, only the popular, famous, well known people matter so they look at them instead.
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;47266437][B][U]>>>>> Forgive me if this post isn't coherent, I just found out I got fired from my job in the middle of writing it so I'm not really in the right mood to go over it or keep posting here. Think I'll actually bug out of FP for the rest of the day, so if you wanna continue to have a not-mean-not-angry debate about gamergate, contact me on skype or steam. You guys aren't as bad as the idiots who have told me to kill myself on twitter so I'd like to hear from you <<<<<[/U][/B]
This is where I disagree with you. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a misogynistic campaign, though. Bear with me for a sec tho.
In a general, basic way, GG's goals are pretty admirable. Ethical journalism, cool. I want that, I want clean journalism.
A bunch of petty trolls polluting the tag is one thing that happens with any major hashtag, but when you have MASSIVE (i excluded people with less than a few thousand followers because then this list would be as long as the Odyssey) gamergate figureheads saying shit like THIS
(above two are in response to jim posting an article about protecting trans people)
... without being called out, denounced, or told to shut up on a large scale, that's when I refuse to support the hashtag. Conceptually, I think notyourshield and GG are great, but in practice I don't see anythign positive at all. I think the [I]core[/I] problem with the negative people behind gamergate is that they assume anyone who's critical of or against gamergate is arguing in [I]bad faith[/I].
What I think needs to happen is some large scale denouncement of scumbags like roguestar and milo, while lifting up the cool gamergate guys (who do exist, don't misinterpret my post) like boogie.
Keep in mind that this is all from what I have experienced from gamergate on twitter, not on sites like FP. If there's some bizarro strain of cool gamergaters that hate the shmucks I posted pictures of, hook me up.[/QUOTE]
I mean, weren't there other people from /pol/ who really huge heads as well until people found out they were crazy?
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;47266437]
[img]http://puu.sh/go7QZ/44af15bbbf.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
first off, gamergate doesn't actually have "leaders"
just because one person says something on twitter that doesn't mean every person using the hashtag agrees
secondly while I don't think anyone deserves to have baphomet "unleashed" upon them, srhbutts is actually a terrible fucking human being and I'm not exactly about to shed tears over her e-drama
[editline]6th March 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=john_pelphre;47266555]I mean, weren't there other people from /pol/ who really huge heads as well until people found out they were crazy?[/QUOTE]
they stopped covering gamergate because they said and did stupid shit and people laughed at them
Rouge gets shit all the time from people in GG (at least in where they meet, KiA, our own thread). People have seen through his shit. I haven't heard of a relevant thing from him in a while.
Milo also get's called out too. People starting asking him about his past sayings on trans shit, and he went through and explained, recanted, and people deemed it to be acceptable. People (on KiA, where actual discussion is easy) will still call him out on certain things that he writes in GG-related articles, and he will post his response explaining how he got to that point and his line of reasoning. He's also since started playing video games to better understand all these arguments and what is causing this rift between GG/aGG.
As for that specific tweet? Eh. It's a little mean spirited, definitely uncalled for.
I have no idea on the GRIMACHU/Wyld tweets. Can't understand whats going on.
And there is absolutely nothing wrong with TB's tweets. He's completely right on those things.
[QUOTE][b]Keep in mind that this is all from what I have experienced from gamergate on twitter, not on sites like FP.[/b][/QUOTE]
And there is your fucking problem. Twitter is THE WORST place for actual discussion and coming to an understanding. People are trying to condense in 140 characters, and it never really works. It's why twitlonger is a thing.
So try going to actual places of discussion. Go to r/KotakuInAction, go to r/GamerGhazi (and compare the tone between the two), got to r/AgainstGamerGate. Hell, pop in to FP's own GG thread, we would love to have an actual discussion. Remember, Max didn't get perma'd becasue he had a dissenting opinion. He got perma'd becasue he was a pretentious dickhead.
EDIT: Twitter is even worse for calling people out. If you're moderately popular, then the callout tweet just gets lumped in with every other tweet and mention you get. People will rarely notice it.
[editline]5th March 2015[/editline]
EDIT 2: And if that's the worst you got. Then hell, GG is fucking tame. Especially compared to the other side.
[QUOTE=Thlis;47261765][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa7S3sjw9z0[/media]
Emphasis on the word tries.[/QUOTE]
I fucking love how most of the audience is boo-ing
The way I took the TB tweets was "It's nice and all telling people to stop harassing trans people, but it's not working so we need a better solution"
Like try going to the KKK and tell them to stop hating black people and see how far that gets you.
But not gonna bother trying to explain stuff to milkandcooki, they drank the koolaid way too much for my taste.
[QUOTE=Crimor;47266737]The way I took the TB tweets was "It's nice and all telling people to stop harassing trans people, but it's not working so we need a better solution"
Like try going to the KKK and tell them to stop hating black people and see how far that gets you.[/QUOTE]
still kinda dumb that he said the article was badly written because he felt the author (who is trans, i assume from what he quoted) was accusing him of something
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't TB end up apologizing for those tweets anyway?
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;47266437][B][U]
This is where I disagree with you. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a misogynistic campaign, though. Bear with me for a sec tho.
In a general, basic way, GG's goals are pretty admirable. Ethical journalism, cool. I want that, I want clean journalism.
A bunch of petty trolls polluting the tag is one thing that happens with any major hashtag, but when you have MASSIVE (i excluded people with less than a few thousand followers because then this list would be as long as the Odyssey) gamergate figureheads saying shit like THIS
... without being called out, denounced, or told to shut up on a large scale, that's when I refuse to support the hashtag. Conceptually, I think notyourshield and GG are great, but in practice I don't see anythign positive at all. I think the [I]core[/I] problem with the negative people behind gamergate is that they assume anyone who's critical of or against gamergate is arguing in [I]bad faith[/I].
What I think needs to happen is some large scale denouncement of scumbags like roguestar and milo, while lifting up the cool gamergate guys (who do exist, don't misinterpret my post) like boogie.
Keep in mind that this is all from what I have experienced from gamergate on twitter, not on sites like FP. If there's some bizarro strain of cool gamergaters that hate the shmucks I posted pictures of, hook me up.[/QUOTE]
If you get all your information from a non-controlled area of discussion where not [I]only[/I] can people post whatever they want, they can be whoever they want, then you should take a step back and find out what the reliability scale of a medium should be affecting your opinion is before considering a majority of evidence.
Roguestar is what I define as a GG radical, much like I do with many anti-gg members, radicals have radical thought and are often powered by emotional or financial gain, however this does not exclude the fact that the internet is a place where an accurate canvass can not be established at any given point with some obvious exclusions. This being said, if you use Roguestar as a canvas for your clearly established opinion you must have realized that many other people will do the same on a pro-gg stance. However, a difference which you will probably overlook or even never bothered to read while reading this, is key statistical data gathered which clearly shows that many anti-gg members look up or otherwise are defending e-celebs which make these stupid comments. Since they are the reasons that gamergate was caused in the first place, it's only logical to assume that the opposition members will defend these people.
So your claim that people such as Milo or Roguestar gamer are in fact major figureheads is, by this point, obviously not true. They have a following and have had some for quite some time. It's only natural that their following would follow them into a controversy as large as this. This same following might also help the fact that anything very negative they say might be ignored more easily then let's say, somebody like Zoey Quinn or Brianna Wu, who up until gamergate, were entire nobodies. Either way, when the vast majority of your comments ring truth then probable cause states that you probably have more good intentions then bad, and as long as other people keep you in check then you should be okay. It's trouble when opposition members of both sides cherry pick these particular comments like you have done so yourself in attempts to show how evil the other side is. My own personal wish, as it is hopefully yours aswell, is to ignore these comments and instead consider the larger picture and evidence that has been brought to you and affected you. Like the video, Tim Shafer has done this in a very public and very unrelated event to Gamergate and the backlash is expected.
On to your next point, that gamergate is entirely negative consider that a negative situation would probably lead to negative attitudes. This is an emotionally fueled movement and we can expect emotionally fueled commentary and criticisms from both sides. By that understanding, either side of gamergate you decide to support, it will be apparant from your perspective that the other side is of course, considering any dissenting opinion of them as emotionally fueled. Learning about your own perspective on political views and listening to both sides equally will help - although it is impossible not to totally neutral and always towards one side, it always helps to remain as close to that point as possible, and only then consider each sides opinions. It's impossible to claim this movement has one majority goal, when it makes them up as it goes along.
Hopefully you can see things from a different perspective.
[QUOTE=TheHydra;47266749]still kinda dumb that he said the article was badly written because he felt the author (who is trans, i assume from what he quoted) was accusing him of something[/QUOTE]
But by saying "stop letting us die" is accusing the reader (so, TB) of something that isn't happening. TB wasn't/isn't letting people kill transfolk. He isn't standing on the sidelines while people slaughter transpeople.
It was needlessly accusatory.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;47265339]Tim is actually a huge sexist in disguise. In one video he implied that women need special "woman friendly" games. Someone tried to argue me there but I still think a statement like that is sexist as fuck and pretty much sends a message that men can enjoy men games and women women games and that each gender needs their own games.
Tim is not only bad with money, he also doesn't know what he's talking about but people listen simply due to his status.[/QUOTE]
Wasn't he talking about game aesthetic rather than gameplay though? If he really did say games need to be easier for women then I retract this whole thing, that's ridiculous, but I thought what he was talking about was women not being treated like sex objects or plot devices in games because lack of representation can be alienating. It's the same thing as never having any black people in film and television.
oh how the mighty have fallen
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;47265400]key difference here, tho.
GDC = game developers, press, publishers
FGT = anyone[/QUOTE]
it should say something then, to you perhaps especially, that these are the people who have the power of hiring, and parrot the line of racial diversity, yet are utterly incapable of having the industry represented with the diversity they claim they desire.
This should tell you that these people who talk a big game of wanting and needing racial, and gender diverse communities are not really doing anything to get there. And they are even all together too happy to say to those very people of diversity that they don't exist, and that they're sock puppets for those of us who are so unfortunate to be born "non diverse".
Tim Schafer ever being professional? Haha that's a good one.
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;47266067]So this is suddenly about Tim announcing how much of a big racist he is, not him poking at GG?[/QUOTE]
I think you're being pretty willfully ignorant here friend.
All I see AGG doing is calling us a group of white cis people(like we had a choice anymore than anyone else does) who want to keep both racially diverse and gender diverse people from our hobby, like a big group of neckbeardy man babies. In fact, I think you can see that paradigm being perfectly demonstrated by Tim here, a self proclaimed and accepted figure head of AGG. But I digress, when that's all that they do, and we reach a point where those very same racially diverse people who are GG or neutral are told they aren't allowed voices by people like Tim here, that is a form of racism. A white man speaking for racially diverse groups and speaking over those very same people?
I'm tired. I'm ridiculously tired of this shit. Every AGGer throws this in my face, and likely the face of anyone who brings it up. They say we're not racially diverse. We say "what about #notyourshield?". "SOCK PUPPETS". So maybe it's time for people who can't realize they have biases, to take over the world because god damn it, there is a stubborn streak that just won't give up in that mentality that I just can't accept as a "logical" manner of living but clearly there's so many of you, anyone who dares question it is doomed to live in that world.
[editline]5th March 2015[/editline]
you know, I have an interesting thought that I want someone to answer. Maybe this means nothing, maybe it's something. I don't know.
Why do we only complain about the western gaming industry being "Non diverse"? Non diverse as a term means lacking in differences. Does the gaming industry of say, Japan, not scream to you "Non diverse" by that definition? Apply it to any ethnic group in any area where they hold a majority. Yes, I understand America and Canada are highly ethnically diverse countries by their very nature compared to Japan or other such areas and that expecting diversity in those other countries by our own requirements is wrong or at least not well founded, but that isn't the point, is it? It's much more about the nature of our complaints and the nature of our problems with what "Diversity" means to us as far as I see it. Diversity is always a good thing. No reason to hide from it in my opinion. I just wonder why we bite our tongues where we bite them.
I like video games. the more I read about video games, the more I realize I should not be into video games, or more accurately, I realize why it is a fucking retarded past-time to associate with.
I remember when I was just into my teen years, I played metal gear solid 2. That had to be one of my first- if not the first - video games I ever played.
Barely spoke a fucking word of english. That game, (and knights of the old republic) probably constitute 80% of my memories around that time. endlessly replaying those games, literally sitting over them with a book to translate them, slowly made me realize how much more possibility does this arc of mass media have than say, movies, or music, books - it encompassed every single good trait of them, and did away with the boring or bad; while at the same time making the experience of them an interactive one. every single game I cherish I cherish for the reasons that I could not a movie, or anything else, really - their interactivity however deep, be it an rpg with tactical depth, or a linear shooter like those old medal of honors that railroaded you down a movie-like, yet still involving experience, or an adventure game where you had to figure out where to go and what to do, like the longest journey. a medium full of brilliant, inspirational minds working on these titles, and following specific journalists to find out what is good and why (who were equally inspired, and massively into the scene) made me a fan of video gaming as a whole.
an engrossing thing. made friends with fans of the scene, talked about it, the entire medium had its ups and downs, but every year there were great, dedicated, thought-provoking or simply blast-you-away titles coming out, with small companies rising from the ground simply because people were willing to notice their genius. not unlike films, really - the scenes, the people and major companies became estabilished, but there was no shortage of underground masterpieces coming out of the woodwork; and more importantly, everyone appreciated it. people were calling video games out to have progressed as far in 20 years as hollywood has progressed in 70.
It's not capitalism, consumerism, statisticalism, pandering, dlc and expansion whoring, profit orientation ruining the scene. It's you. I've been closely following but never commenting on this entire thing, not because I prefer to stay afar from arguments, in fact, I enjoy being in the middle of them - but simply because of what I just came to realize. there is no argument. There is no racism in video games. you insert the racism. there's no sexism, you insert the sexism. you see what you want to see. I don't walk down the street judging people based on their color, I don't look at a woman and think 'this bitch should never play video games'. I want to play video games with women. I want to play video games with everyone. That is, I wanted to, until I found out the majority of you have become this - opinionated for the sake of just holding one (an opinion). You're all so focused on opening up the amazing thing that is gaming to everyone that you slowly, and unnoticeable to you, alienate every single person. you're the one making the casuals. noone wants to get into video games more seriously than the surface, because the moment they look below it, they see what I see.
waiting for zoey quinn to fuck some people; and for the whole thing to come to life. you were all waiting for a reason to hold sides, to hold strong opinions over which is literally nothing. the issue would not exist if people in the scene were smart enough to overlook things like the corrupt journalists or clashing ideals. realist painters don't shit on post-modernists, photographers of models don't shittalk people who take snapshots of nature, people in politics wholly ignore fox news/russia today; yet you insist. you're just a cog in the mechanism for the wrecking ball that's fucking this entire thing over. people, in any case, are only as powerful as the power you attribute to them, and you people have attributed way, way too much to figureheads whose personal quarrels have become the bane of the industry.
Fuck gamergate. Fuck anti-gamergate. All there is below the surface is shit-flinging. and you're part of it.
even deeper, there's video games, and it's like you've all forgotten.
[QUOTE=Egevened;47267323]I like video games. the more I read about video games, the more I realize I should not be into video games, or more accurately, I realize why it is a fucking retarded past-time to associate with.
I remember when I was just into my teen years, I played metal gear solid 2. That had to be one of my first- if not the first - video games I ever played.
Barely spoke a fucking word of english. That game, (and knights of the old republic) probably constitute 80% of my memories around that time. endlessly replaying those games, literally sitting over them with a book to translate them, slowly made me realize how much more possibility does this arc of mass media have than say, movies, or music, books - it encompassed every single good trait of them, and did away with the boring or bad; while at the same time making the experience of them an interactive one. every single game I cherish I cherish for the reasons that I could not a movie, or anything else, really - their interactivity however deep, be it an rpg with tactical depth, or a linear shooter like those old medal of honors that railroaded you down a movie-like, yet still involving experience, or an adventure game where you had to figure out where to go and what to do, like the longest journey. a medium full of brilliant, inspirational minds working on these titles, and following specific journalists to find out what is good and why (who were equally inspired, and massively into the scene) made me a fan of video gaming as a whole.
an engrossing thing. made friends with fans of the scene, talked about it, the entire medium had its ups and downs, but every year there were great, dedicated, thought-provoking or simply blast-you-away titles coming out, with small companies rising from the ground simply because people were willing to notice their genius. not unlike films, really - the scenes, the people and major companies became estabilished, but there was no shortage of underground masterpieces coming out of the woodwork; and more importantly, everyone appreciated it. people were calling video games out to have progressed as far in 20 years as hollywood has progressed in 70.
It's not capitalism, consumerism, statisticalism, pandering, dlc and expansion whoring, profit orientation ruining the scene. It's you. I've been closely following but never commenting on this entire thing, not because I prefer to stay afar from arguments, in fact, I enjoy being in the middle of them - but simply because of what I just came to realize. there is no argument. There is no racism in video games. you insert the racism. there's no sexism, you insert the sexism. you see what you want to see. I don't walk down the street judging people based on their color, I don't look at a woman and think 'this bitch should never play video games'. I want to play video games with women. I want to play video games with everyone. That is, I wanted to, until I found out the majority of you have become this - opinionated for the sake of just holding one (an opinion). You're all so focused on opening up the amazing thing that is gaming to everyone that you slowly, and unnoticeable to you, alienate every single person. you're the one making the casuals. noone wants to get into video games more seriously than the surface, because the moment they look below it, they see what I see.
waiting for zoey quinn to fuck some people; and for the whole thing to come to life. you were all waiting for a reason to hold sides, to hold strong opinions over which is literally nothing. the issue would not exist [B]if people in the scene were smart enough to overlook things like the corrupt journalists[/B] or clashing ideals. [B]realist painters don't shit on post-modernists[/B], photographers of models don't shittalk people who take snapshots of nature, [B]people in politics wholly ignore fox news/russia today[/B]; yet you insist. you're just a cog in the mechanism for the wrecking ball that's fucking this entire thing over. people, in any case, are only as powerful as the power you attribute to them, and you people have attributed way, way too much to figureheads whose personal quarrels have become the bane of the industry.
Fuck gamergate. Fuck anti-gamergate. All there is below the surface is shit-flinging. and you're part of it.
even deeper, there's video games, and it's like you've all forgotten.[/QUOTE]
1. Quit getting caught up in wishful thinking. Gaming's politics are no worse than anywhere else. In fact, what's currently playing out has already happened and is happening in mainstream politics- the only reason it's such a mess in gaming is that no time-tested institutions exist to provide some manner of framework for public discourse.
2. Why the everloving FUCK would overlooking corrupt journalists be a smart thing? Overlooking clashing ideals, I'll give you that, both sides are guilty of it, but only one side had enough pull to start actively silencing clashing ideals.
[QUOTE=Egevened;47267374]insert the word 'smart' before the parts you bolded and there you have it[/QUOTE]
I'll give you the second and third bolded parts.
Overlooking journalistic corruption, however, is anything but smart. There is a point where avoiding conflict becomes detrimental.
oh also corrupt journalists only hold any real sway as long as people actually listen to them
[QUOTE=Egevened;47267382]oh also corrupt journalists only hold any real sway as long as people actually listen to them[/QUOTE]
What will prevent people from listening to them if their corruption is ignored?
time and time again some guy just getting into gaming will listen to ign and buy a shitty game
he's never going to listen to ign again, yet everyone's made it their personal vendetta to 'remove corruption from garme journalism' good job
What is the point you're even trying to make? That the gaming public should just sit down, shut up and be glad there's a hole between their buttocks?
It's easy to blame the messenger when the message brought is an unpleasant and controversial one. Yes, there definitely are gamers who are out for SJW blood. The Five Guys thing back last summer, in my opinion, was just regular /v/ nonsense, fueled by pettiness more than actual concern. The response it prompted, however... That response was the actual beginning, and the actual revelation of deep-seated issues within games media and the industry.
[QUOTE=Egevened;47267436]did you miss the entire part where I said that the consumers attribute the power to these people[/QUOTE]
I must, again, bring up your own words
[QUOTE=Egevened;47267323] the issue would not exist if people in the scene were smart enough to overlook things like the corrupt journalists[/QUOTE]
Consumers attribute power to these people because the media tells them these people have power. Brianna Wu for example, did not become a known person for being attacked by Gamergate (it's debatable whether there was an attack in the first place because there's been multiple discrepancies), she did because half the games media and even regular news sites have trumpeted it across the globe that she is a games developer being harassed by nasty gamers.
Yes, GGers become far too hung up on nobodies screaming their nonsense, but they are not the ones lending them the power to be heard- journalists do.
[editline]6th March 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Egevened;47267454]we can agree, an anger release mechanism for both sides isn't going to do any good for either side
but deep-seated issues? as in what? orientation towards consumerism? show me one form of mass media that isn't
it just feels like to me that all this anger is directed towards thin air[/QUOTE]
Deep-seated issues such as the Gamejournopros mailing list which functioned as a clique to literally decide who and what gets coverage and what doesn't.
Deep-seated issues such as multiple articles popping up on the same day declaring gamers an undesirable audience, all from journalists and/or sites, turns out, tied to each other one way or the other
Deep-seated issues such as discussion of such events being outright banned from most every major site- even fucking 4chan of all places. Fucking 4chan!
Deep-seated issues such as erasing the identity of people tweeting #notyourshield by saying to their face that they are just fake sockpuppet accounts posting stock photos, declaring that #gamergate is a far-right reactionary movement made up solely of neckbearded white twats, and every media outlet running with this side of the story without fact checking.
The anger is directed at thin air because one side is actively blocking out the other from any discussion, and thus the other side grows increasingly frustrated
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