Is there such thing as "Separation of Church and State" in the United States? - General

[QUOTE=sgman91;26324879]You understand how ridiculous that sounds, right? It would be like me saying, "Except the Declaration of Independence says that our inalienable rights come from God so your point is mute." The only way to find the truth on historical issues is by looking at the big picture, not one line from one treaty.[/QUOTE] unless of course there was a law that are Country was founded on

[QUOTE=R3mix;26324940]This is relevant to the topic at hand considering we're discussing the founding fathers and the matter of separation of church and state but, are you a republican? (( I'll get to the point once you've answered ))[/QUOTE] My personal beliefs have nothing at all to do with the discussion at hand, but no, I don't identify myself with any single party. I identify with beliefs, not parties. I'm fiscally conservative and socially libertarian. I'm also not arguing that the country SHOULD or SHOULD NOT have a Christian foundation, but that the founders were overwhelmingly Christian and that Christianity played a big part in its founding.

[QUOTE=sgman91;26324879]You understand how ridiculous that sounds, right? It would be like me saying, "Except the Declaration of Independence says that our inalienable rights come from God so your point is mute." The only way to find the truth on historical issues is by looking at the big picture, not one line from one treaty.[/QUOTE] Except the treaty explained how they felt at the time. We know how they felt through the words on that treaty. Your misconceptions about what they thought doesn't really have ground. Also, what does the word God in treaties have to do with their validity?

[QUOTE=sgman91;26324966]My personal beliefs have nothing at all to do with the discussion at hand, but no, I don't identify myself with any single party.[/QUOTE] Okay well then in that case I was going to put your personal belief affiliated to your party if you were linked to the republican party, as most republicans believe this country was founded on Christianity undoubtedly and also don't believe there should be a separation of church and state. But anyhow, check it out. [quote=http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html] The Founding Fathers were men of [b] The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. [/b] They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true. When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no single religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had. [b]Nowhere[/b] in the Constitution does it mention religion, except in exclusionary terms. The words [i]"Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God"[/i] are [b]never[/b] mentioned in the Constitution-- not once.[/quote] To go out of context here, I hope you know who wrote our Constitution, Declaration, etc. [quote=Continued Text From Above] The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the opinions of the Founding Fathers. [b]Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power of the government is derived from the governed.[/b] [i]Up until that time, [b]it was claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God.[/b][/i] The Declaration was a radical departure from the idea of divine authority. [b]The 1796 treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was [i]"in no sense founded on the Christian religion"[/i] (see below). This was not an idle statement, meant to satisfy muslims-- they believed it and meant it. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.[/b][/quote] [img]http://freethought.mbdojo.com/titleXI.jpg[/img] [quote=Continued Text...]None of the Founding Fathers were atheists. Most of the Founders were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books. They spoke often of God, (Nature's God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible. They did not deny that there was a person called Jesus, and praised him for his benevolent teachings, but they flatly denied his divinity. Some people speculate that if Charles Darwin had lived a century earlier, the Founding Fathers would have had a basis for accepting naturalistic origins of life, and they would have been atheists. Most of them were stoutly opposed to the bible, and the teachings of Christianity in particular.[/quote] Again, if you want to read more here: [url]http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html[/url]

[QUOTE=sgman91;26324966]My personal beliefs have nothing at all to do with the discussion at hand, but no, I don't identify myself with any single party. I identify with beliefs, not parties. I'm fiscally conservative and socially libertarian.[/QUOTE] well of course it matters because your personal belief is what you base your whole argument on. also i would say it doesnt matter what the founding fathers believe, even though there are a lot of anti religious quotes by some of them, it doesnt really matter what they believed because we know that allowing religion to control government is a very bad idea

It really doesn't matter how the founding fathers wanted it to be. It's the choice of the constitution and the people who live here.

[QUOTE=SamPerson123;26325064]It really doesn't matter how the founding fathers wanted it to be. It's the choice of the people who live here.[/QUOTE] The Founding Fathers put the law of the land to us by the Constitution which is upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States. Everyone still has to abide by the law of the land, and the majority set it forth so as stated. The Choice of Religion may be free, but the matter of the fact of which we were discussing is that they wanted Separation of State and Church because they weren't Christians, and that's the way it's meant to be as stated in the Constitution, and as stated in the Treaty of Tripoli. We were not founded on [b]any[/b] religion.

[QUOTE=advil0;26320119]we were a Christian founded country [/QUOTE] This is where I quit reading. No we weren't. End of story.

ye its there' i think

[QUOTE](money, pledge of allegiance, etc)[/QUOTE] :doh: [editline]26th November 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=advil0;26320437]That doesn't explicitly say that religion has no grounds in government for determining laws[/QUOTE] What the Hell? That's exactly what it says.

[QUOTE=advil0;26320437]That doesn't explicitly say that religion has no grounds in government for determining laws, it does however prove a lot of what I was asking though. Thanks[/QUOTE] It does and it shouldn't. putting religion in government is like putting a bull in a china shop

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;26325514]It does and it shouldn't. putting religion in government is like putting a bull in a china shop[/QUOTE] Technically, its been proven that putting a bull in a china shop will not cause significant damage unless it is faced with a threat. On topic: Church and state are currently not separated, considering all the butthurt from politicians when Obama wanted to place a mosque in New York.

[QUOTE=I Broke The Sun!;26321143]We aren't a Christian-founded country. Most of the founding fathers were merely deists, not Christians.[/QUOTE] This, in the event anyone missed it.

[QUOTE=joes33431;26326126]Technically, its been proven that putting a bull in a china shop will not cause significant damage unless it is faced with a threat.[/QUOTE] Damn Mythbusters ruining our sayings. Anyway, church and state are separated, I don't see how you can simply state that they aren't from one incident. That was based on bigotry, not necessarily religion. If church and state weren't separate, our country would be radically different (and I'd move to Canada)

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;26326247]Damn Mythbusters ruining our sayings. Anyway, church and state are separated, I don't see how you can simply state that they aren't from one incident. That was based on bigotry, not necessarily religion. If church and state were separate, our country would be radically different (and I'd move to Canada)[/QUOTE] I assume you're talking about another country considering the United States [b]is[/b] separated from both Church and State?

No. It doesn't exist. People have twisted one article and one sentence in a letter way out of it.

[QUOTE=rosar0980;26331427]No. It doesn't exist. People have twisted one article and one sentence in a letter way out of it.[/QUOTE] Are you kidding me? Look at all the posts on the 1st page. WE just explained how there is a Separation of Church and State.

There is a Separation of Church and State in USA, but it's like fuck; do they follow it? No.

You're dumb. Here: [url]http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Is+there+such+thing+as+%22Separation+of+Church+and+State%22+in+the+United+States%3F[/url]

[QUOTE=rosar0980;26331427]No. It doesn't exist. People have twisted one article and one sentence in a letter way out of it.[/QUOTE] The exact phrase might not be in there, but the meaning of it sure is.

We should have separation, but it's not always present. [editline]27th November 2010[/editline] Many of our laws are based on religious ideas. Think about Bush and his limiting on funding for stemcells that 'killed babies', drug law (prohibition was at times very religious), general things like public nudity. Generally those ideas are based not on fact (in the nudity one for health perhaps to a degree) but solely on the religious beliefs and customs of the people in charge at the time. So yes, separation of church and state doesn't truly exist - but it never really has, nor will it ever so as long as law makers are permitted to go with belief rather than fact.

Amendment I of the Constitution of the United States says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. [...]" What does that mean? It means the [I]Federal[/I] legislature (this distinction becomes important later) cannot pass a law that creates an establishment of religion; that is, no state church or any state-funded institution of religion (e.g. the Church of England.) This, however, [I]does not[/I] mean that the ideas and principles of any given religion cannot be practised within the state or applied the forming of its laws. So for instance, there is nothing unconstitutional about having the Ten Commandments displayed in a federal court house, or having "In God We Trust" written on the currency, or declaring a national day of prayer. Further, it's important to note that first Amendment only applies the [I]Federal[/I] legislature. Individual states hold the right to establish official state religions. In fact, several ratifying states did indeed have an official state religion. It's a little-known fact, but its nevertheless true. In short, the Founding Fathers believed in keeping government away from the organized institutions of religion in order to prevent corruption. But they were not opposed to the practice of it within the government. Many of the framers of the Constitution believed in religious principles themselves, and felt strongly that good government relied on strong moral character which stemmed from religious doctrine and principle.

[QUOTE=sgman91;26324693]This whole line about the founding fathers not being almost uniformly Christian is almost laughable. - All but two of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were declared Christians. - All but one of the signers of the Articles of Confederation were declared Christians. - All but one of the signers of the Constitution were declared Christians. Also, being deist was just different than a deist of today. Jefferson for example attended church services in the House of Representative every week while being president. He also gave money in support of many churches throughout his life. He also agreed with much of the morality of Jesus and thought that it was a very important part of a working republic. Some quotes by Jefferson: “Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.” "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." “God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” A quote by Benjamin Franklin, one of the highest held "deists" of the time: “ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech “In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787] He also insisted that public schools teach that Christianity should be held higher than any other religion. Another point, After the Bible the second best selling book in the new American nation was The New England Primer... you know how it taught people to read and write? Through Biblical stories and Christian doctrine of course![/QUOTE] I'm too lazy to find their quotes, but a lot of the founding fathers despised organized religion and it's overbearing arms

[QUOTE=R3mix;26331372]I assume you're talking about another country considering the United States [b]is[/b] separated from both Church and State?[/QUOTE] spelling error sry corrected and now my post makes sense, although I thought it was still fairly clear.

We'd vote in a Neo-Nazi president before an atheist president.

[QUOTE=Mjolnir82991;26335795]Amendment I of the Constitution of the United States says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. [...]" What does that mean? It means the [I]Federal[/I] legislature (this distinction becomes important later) cannot pass a law that creates an establishment of religion; that is, no state church or any state-funded institution of religion (e.g. the Church of England.) This, however, [I]does not[/I] mean that the ideas and principles of any given religion cannot be practised within the state or applied the forming of its laws. So for instance, there is nothing unconstitutional about having the Ten Commandments displayed in a federal court house, or having "In God We Trust" written on the currency, or declaring a national day of prayer. Further, it's important to note that first Amendment only applies the [I]Federal[/I] legislature. Individual states hold the right to establish official state religions. In fact, several ratifying states did indeed have an official state religion. It's a little-known fact, but its nevertheless true. In short, the Founding Fathers believed in keeping government away from the organized institutions of religion in order to prevent corruption. But they were not opposed to the practice of it within the government. Many of the framers of the Constitution believed in religious principles themselves, and felt strongly that good government relied on strong moral character which stemmed from religious doctrine and principle.[/QUOTE] Thanks. See? See? I told my parents I'm not a complete whack job! I just suck at everything............... Inb4 yes you do

The term "separation of church and state" was never mentioned anywhere until 1802 in a letter by Thomas Jefferson. By literal definition, there is no such thing as a separation of church and state in the United States government. The idea of separation of church and state was not proposed to keep church out of government, but rather vice versa, to keep the government out of religion, as prescribed by the First Amendment: [quote][b]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion[/b], or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Misiek93;26337609]The term "separation of church and state" was never mentioned anywhere until 1802 in a letter by Thomas Jefferson. By literal definition, there is no such thing as a separation of church and state in the United States government. The idea of separation of church and state was not proposed to keep church out of government, but rather vice versa, to keep the government out of religion, as prescribed by the First Amendment:[/QUOTE] I've made this argument so many times, it's not funny.

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;26337424]We'd vote in a Neo-Nazi president before an atheist president.[/QUOTE] We have an atheist president right now! (I think the church thing is a front, maybe this is because I'm atheist and want him to be too) Also, if there's no separation of church and state then we better include the basic morals and principles of Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism.

[QUOTE=Mjolnir82991;26335795]Amendment I of the Constitution of the United States says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. [...]" What does that mean? It means the [I]Federal[/I] legislature (this distinction becomes important later) cannot pass a law that creates an establishment of religion; that is, no state church or any state-funded institution of religion (e.g. the Church of England.) This, however, [I]does not[/I] mean that the ideas and principles of any given religion cannot be practised within the state or applied the forming of its laws. So for instance, there is nothing unconstitutional about having the Ten Commandments displayed in a federal court house, or having "In God We Trust" written on the currency, or declaring a national day of prayer. Further, it's important to note that first Amendment only applies the [I]Federal[/I] legislature. Individual states hold the right to establish official state religions. In fact, several ratifying states did indeed have an official state religion. It's a little-known fact, but its nevertheless true. In short, the Founding Fathers believed in keeping government away from the organized institutions of religion in order to prevent corruption. But they were not opposed to the practice of it within the government. Many of the framers of the Constitution believed in religious principles themselves, and felt strongly that good government relied on strong moral character which stemmed from religious doctrine and principle.[/QUOTE] You realize you sort of contradicted yourself? The Founding Fathers were deists of their time, they weren't Christians. They didn't want religion involved in the Constitution and they wanted to keep it away for a very good reason. It may not be written as " SEPARATION OF STATE AND CHURCH " but come on man it's heavily implied. If they weren't opposed to the practice of it within the government then why would they say don't deal with making laws on it? It's obvious they didn't want to touch on religion and they had a pretty damn good reason for it. The Framers of the Constitution weren't all religious like I said, most of them were deists of their time, and would be seen as Modern Atheists of today's society. [QUOTE=Misiek93;26337609]The term "separation of church and state" was never mentioned anywhere until 1802 in a letter by Thomas Jefferson. By literal definition, there is no such thing as a separation of church and state in the United States government. The idea of separation of church and state was not proposed to keep church out of government, but rather vice versa, to keep the government out of religion, as prescribed by the First Amendment:[/QUOTE] The man who created our Declaration of Independence may have not wrote it in our Constitution but the fact he mentioned it in a letter stresses the fact that it's heavily implied. Religion and State should not mix because it wall cause chaos.