• Is misandry real?
    333 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Protocol7;36691759]I don't think so, at least not in any significance. When's the last time a dude got bullied by a bunch of chicks - solely for being male? I haven't heard of any such stories.[/QUOTE] That's not really a good example. When's the last time a chick got bullied by a bunch of dudes - solely for being female?
[QUOTE=King Tiger;36693981]That's not really a good example. When's the last time a chick got bullied by a bunch of dudes - solely for being female?[/QUOTE] Congratulations you missed the point! It's not about examples, it's that misandry isn't significant enough today to even be called a problem.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;36694017]Congratulations you missed the point! It's not about examples, it's that misandry isn't significant enough today to even be called a problem.[/QUOTE] It's not the largest problem the world faces yet so it's not a problem at all. :downs:
[QUOTE=draugur;36694257]It's not the largest problem the world faces yet so it's not a problem at all. :downs:[/QUOTE] Please prove to me that misandry exists in a way that is actually relevant that [I]is not a side effect of misogyny.[/I] [editline]9th July 2012[/editline] Because last I checked men were never profiled for being men but rather because of the schism of gender roles caused by misogyny, which *is* a problem.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;36694017]Congratulations you missed the point! It's not about examples, it's that misandry isn't significant enough today to even be called a problem.[/QUOTE] I didn't miss the point, I understand and agree with you. But that example is dumb.
People take things to extreme, back in the 60's and 70's when the feminist movement first got going there was a small group of extremists who really did go too far. It's mostly unheard of today, and it's often put into satire because of how outlandish it was. Come to think of it there was a lot of extreme ideas floating around back then.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;36694300]Please prove to me that misandry exists in a way that is actually relevant that [I]is not a side effect of misogyny.[/I][/QUOTE] First, you need to define what a "side effect of misogyny" is. Then you can actually debate without throwing a bullshit term around when only you know what it is.
[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;36696794]First, you need to define what a "side effect of misogyny" is. Then you can actually debate without throwing a bullshit term around when only you know what it is.[/QUOTE] Okay. Male rape isn't taken seriously because of misogyny. Men are strong and dominant, Women are weak and subservient; Ergo men can't be raped. This also can be abused and exploited by women in a relationship, where they can threaten to claim "rape" if the man doesn't comply. Because of misogyny, the woman can garner easy sympathy and protection. The sexist preconception that "men are all violent, power hungry, rapists, etc" ALSO stem from this.
[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;36696794]First, you need to define what a "side effect of misogyny" is. Then you can actually debate without throwing a bullshit term around when only you know what it is.[/QUOTE] You mean I need to actually explain that misogyny negatively effects both genders in different regards? Because that's silly. But I'll bite. So the whole point of misogyny is to "put down" women, correct? Make them the "lesser" sex, because, well, you hate or dislike them for whatever reason. So of course this leads to the society we have now where jokes like "get in the kitchen bitch" are more accepted than things like "go pump iron at the gym you asshole." There is a clear onesidedness that at a glance is worse for women but what it does to both is create a schism where men are held to different standards than women, and that affects men as much as it does women, because not every man will conform to the standards just like how not every women will conform to their standards. Members from both sides are antagonized for "missing the point" so to speak. That, my friend, is the side effect of misogyny. It's not misandry for the same reason that a person that's coughing doesn't necessarily have pneumonia. Misogynistic views have created gender roles, and now when people are trying to "break the mold" today they get punished. I thought this was common sense and I wouldn't have to waste my time explaining what a quick Google can do, but here we are
[QUOTE=RichyZ;36696841]random factoid: abraham lincoln was abused by his wife on a daily basis, he just put up with it for fear of bad publicity and his children hating him for it[/QUOTE] bad publicity stemming from the preconception that women are subservient and aren't suppose to boss men around. The bad publicity would be people seeing him as being weak and unmanly.
There are so few comparable examples of situations where men are treated unfairly that you really can't say it exists. Plus, misogyny is so staggeringly overwhelming compared to any form of inequality that men experience that acting like misandry is a problem just makes you look like an asshole. There's this argument about how men always have to fight in die in wars while women stay home and are trained to be polite and just chill at home all day, but that's a product of misogyny as well. The bottom line is that women never had a choice in the matter. Also consider this simple truth that doesn't really stand out until it's put a certain way: I can't find the article, but a Professor holding a seminar started out by asking all of the men to say what they do to avoid getting raped, and no one raised their hand. When he asked the women, they managed to fill an entire chalkboard. How is that not brought up constantly?
misandry as an institution doesn't exist just as anti-white racism as an institution doesn't exist. on an individual level it can exist
Misandry is real. Male rape is real. There might be fewer cases than misogyny, but there sure are.
Yes and no. The issue with misandry is, that it usually exists in a purely personal sphere, whereas misoginy often exists on a social level. Of course in some societies it misandry might actually exist on the same level as misoginy in general society, it rarely does manifest itself inside of a larger societal margin. It's usually constrained to a couple of individuals and rarely has the same impact on the lives of many males as misoginy on females. So the core differences Scope - misoginy is more widespread Level of impact on society - misoginy is more widespread in society, misandry is usually contrained to a personal level. That said, neither misoginy nor misandry should ignored and both should be addressed, but it is understandabe that misoginy is more often in the limelight. Though, misandry should not be confused with a state, were men are in a more adverse situation than women because they are men. Those situation are actually very often a product of male impact on society which long held that men must protect women, which are in a way a form of secondary sexism at women.
[QUOTE=SystemGS;36691710]punched a guy who was making rape jokes. ...understand the importance of purging rape culture from society.[/QUOTE] Removing dark humour from society just because a minority of people can't bear it is a bad idea. If they don't want to hear that dark humour they can just walk away from the person saying it.
[QUOTE=sgman91;36692218]People don't really make news articles of this kind of thing, but I have plenty of anecdotal evidence and since that's the only kind of evidence that I've seen either way it must take precedence. It's really pretty obvious... just look at the example given in the OP, it's the exact same sort of situation. If a man hit a woman for making a crude remark he's mistreating women, but a woman does the same thing she's a hero who stands up for herself. Another example: Woman gets an abortion even though the father wants to have the kid. She's lauded for using her rights as a woman, but if a man doesn't want to pay child support for a kid he never wanted... he's an irresponsible idiot. I don't know about you, but 9 months of pregnancy is much less of a problem than a lifetime of child support payments.[/QUOTE] if that is a "no" then stop making claims you can't support.
Misandry does exist, but it is nowhere near as prominent as Misogyny. Also, most Misandry falls into one of two categories: 1. Double standard created because "women are the fairer sex". (e.g. Men paying for meals). 2. Double standard created by the feminist backlash against misogyny. (e.g. the common belief that divorces are always the father's fault.)
[QUOTE=Not Flapadar;36697372]Removing dark humour from society just because a minority of people can't bear it is a bad idea. If they don't want to hear that dark humour they can just walk away from the person saying it.[/QUOTE] To be fair we should be mindful of triggers in society. Doesn't mean we need to baby ourselves, just be aware. Someone could be sitting next to a rape victim in a bar without even realizing it, for instance, and then proceed to make a rape joke that she overhears. That sort of thing can literally ruin her night.
[QUOTE=Reimu;36698907]To be fair we should be mindful of triggers in society. Doesn't mean we need to baby ourselves, just be aware. Someone could be sitting next to a rape victim in a bar without even realizing it, for instance, and then proceed to make a rape joke that she overhears. That sort of thing can literally ruin her night.[/QUOTE] to add to this, if you're in the US [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#United_States"]you're statistically likely to know a rape victim or two[/URL], whether you realise it or not
[QUOTE=Reimu;36698907]To be fair we should be mindful of triggers in society. Doesn't mean we need to baby ourselves, just be aware. Someone could be sitting next to a rape victim in a bar without even realizing it, for instance, and then proceed to make a rape joke that she overhears. That sort of thing can literally ruin her night.[/QUOTE] I joke about rape, abortions, priests being child molesters / abusive stepfathers, racism and basically anything that falls under black/dark humour. Not once have I seen someone run crying away from me. Edit: Well, besides one thing. I posted this when the whole 'Kony 2012' thing was on the go, and got a bit of grief about it. [img]http://flapadar.co.uk/img/2012-07-10-04-21-53.png[/img] It's good to avoid subjects you know are raw on people though. For example, I wouldn't recommend anyone with some deep seated issue to watch south park etc - they're great at covering all the bases.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;36691850]I think there are side effects of misogyny that negatively impact males but I'm still not sure there are any events that have occurred where I can straight up say it was misandry. I could be wrong. It definitely exists, but the real question is, does it exist as a problem? And I think the answer to that is, no.[/QUOTE] How does it being a side effect of misogyny automatically make it NOT misandry? We're not going to ever achieve gender equality if we frame the entire terminology so that it's "women vs evil men and misogyny". Misogyny and misandry both exist as part of the same archaic system of gender roles. To say that misandry is "just a side effect of misogyny" accomplishes nothing beyond finger-pointing, which [I]is not helping the problem.[/I]
misandry doesn't exist unless you are an MRA which is hilarious because it's like being in a white rights group and saying there's a racism problem (against whites) [editline]10th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=SAULSBASHWALL;36699879]How does it being a side effect of misogyny automatically make it NOT misandry? We're not going to ever achieve gender equality if we frame the entire terminology so that it's "women vs evil men and misogyny". Misogyny and misandry both exist as part of the same archaic system of gender roles. To say that misandry is "just a side effect of misogyny" accomplishes nothing beyond finger-pointing, which [I]is not helping the problem.[/I][/QUOTE] sorry but males have an advantage over females in society for no good reason and being male is being born into privilege just like being white (christian and straight count too)
[QUOTE=Loen;36697039]Male rape isn't taken seriously because of misogyny. Men are strong and dominant, Women are weak and subservient; Ergo men can't be raped. [/QUOTE] This makes me angry. There are plenty of women who hit their husbands on daily basis, abuse them mentally and do other fucked up shit but society says "Its okay, she's a woman". So fucked up.
[QUOTE=Not Flapadar;36699520]I joke about rape, abortions, priests being child molesters / abusive stepfathers, racism and basically anything that falls under black/dark humour. Not once have I seen someone run crying away from me.[/QUOTE] That's because most people just internalize it. Not to say that you shouldn't make those sort of jokes or look for shock value, just, you know, there's a time and place for them. [editline]10th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Turnips5;36698944]to add to this, if you're in the US [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#United_States"]you're statistically likely to know a rape victim or two[/URL], whether you realise it or not[/QUOTE] The scary thing too is that not every American understands what rape looks like. 38% of rape cases are actually from friends/acquaintances, and 28% by someone who is intimate with the victim. Only 26% of cases are actually from strangers, and 2/3rds of all rape take place in someone's home. It's not just the stranger grabbing someone from behind and into a dark alley. It's usually someone saying "No" and the assaulter saying "Yes" anyway.
[QUOTE=McGii;36703370]misandry doesn't exist unless you are an MRA which is hilarious because it's like being in a white rights group and saying there's a racism problem (against whites) [editline]10th July 2012[/editline] sorry but males have an advantage over females in society for no good reason and being male is being born into privilege just like being white (christian and straight count too)[/QUOTE] Both sides had advantages and disadvantages. Males were expected to go out to work before females, they were expected to die in wars. To this day, men are considered pretty much infinitely more disposable than women. They had a lot of responsibility and society expected [I]everything[/I] of them. Yeah, they often had rights that women didn't, but they had the bigger share of the responsibilities too. once again, if you're going to belittle male problems just because you think female problems are bigger, [I]even if they actually are[/I], to the point that you see fit to redefine misandry as "side effects of misogyny" you will never achieve gender equality.
[QUOTE=Reimu;36703898]The scary thing too is that not every American understands what rape looks like. 38% of rape cases are actually from friends/acquaintances, and 28% by someone who is intimate with the victim. Only 26% of cases are actually from strangers, and 2/3rds of all rape take place in someone's home. It's not just the stranger grabbing someone from behind and into a dark alley. It's usually someone saying "No" and the assaulter saying "Yes" anyway.[/QUOTE] Indeed. I know at least three rape or abuse victims personally. There might be some I don't even know about. It's depressing how widespread it actually is.
[QUOTE=SAULSBASHWALL;36699879]How does it being a side effect of misogyny automatically make it NOT misandry? We're not going to ever achieve gender equality if we frame the entire terminology so that it's "women vs evil men and misogyny". Misogyny and misandry both exist as part of the same archaic system of gender roles. To say that misandry is "just a side effect of misogyny" accomplishes nothing beyond finger-pointing, which [I]is not helping the problem.[/I][/QUOTE] The archaic system of gender roles is caused by misogyny. Do you even know what misandry is? Because NOTHING about our society is misandric while misogynistic views are scattered all throughout society. I think it was Faze who said it - misogyny exists on a social level, misandry is a case-by-case basis (in which case is it really misandry)?
[QUOTE=Protocol7;36706828]The archaic system of gender roles is caused by misogyny. Do you even know what misandry is? Because NOTHING about our society is misandric while misogynistic views are scattered all throughout society. I think it was Faze who said it - misogyny exists on a social level, misandry is a case-by-case basis (in which case is it really misandry)?[/QUOTE] I'd figure it'd be the same thing as racism, where on a casual level it's another word for bigotry towards a race, while in a proper context it also requires to have the power to abuse a person/people based on race. So keeping black people out of high ranking positions intentionally is racist, hurting a hispanic from the fact he's hispanic is racist, simply having an negative opinion of a race is not racist, it's just bigotry. so if a woman had the power to abuse (a) man/men based on the fact he/they is/are male, it's misandry, if's negative opinions of men, it's just bigotry, saying they are all dicks/pigs/assholes is still just bigotry.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;36706805]Indeed. I know at least three rape or abuse victims personally. There might be some I don't even know about. It's depressing how widespread it actually is.[/QUOTE] Yeah, one of my online friends was abused as a child. I'm not sure how many triggers she has, but I feel very bad for her because she really deserves better than the hand she's been dealt. One of my mutual followers on tumblr was also abused growing up. And, on a slightly related note, one of my close friends deals with verbal abuse on a regular basis (thank god no sexual abuse). Abuse is actually very common, it's scary.
[QUOTE=SAULSBASHWALL;36704419]Both sides had advantages and disadvantages. Males were expected to go out to work before females, they were expected to die in wars. To this day, men are considered pretty much infinitely more disposable than women. They had a lot of responsibility and society expected [I]everything[/I] of them. Yeah, they often had rights that women didn't, but they had the bigger share of the responsibilities too. once again, if you're going to belittle male problems just because you think female problems are bigger, [I]even if they actually are[/I], to the point that you see fit to redefine misandry as "side effects of misogyny" you will never achieve gender equality.[/QUOTE] To be honest, this is not misandry though, as that is behaviour enforced by society as a way to showcase that men are better and superior to women. Men are sent to wars, because women are seen as too weak, as in need of protection and as a result are put into the same category as small children. While the men act as protectors. That's not to say that this effect men negatively, but you can't claim that this is an institution that belittles men. If instead, society was set up in a such a way, that it sends men to war, because they are disposeable and sending them off to dry is seen as a way of dealing with them, than yes, that would be misandry. If they are sent to war, because society is set up in a such a way, that it makes females in need of protection, then it's not misandry, but an aspect of misoginy. For something to be labelled as misandry, it would have to be a negative action towards men, because society believes men are inferior to women. Misandry obviously exists as well - but as has been said multiple times, it's rarely as widespread and systematic or ingrained in the psyche of society as misoginy.
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