• Is misandry real?
    333 replies, posted
Most forms of actual misandry in the media - men are stupid, men can't do housework without a woman's help, (married) men are awful romantics - are also so minor and ignorable that it's not worth getting upset about.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;36706828]The archaic system of gender roles is caused by misogyny. Do you even know what misandry is? Because NOTHING about our society is misandric while misogynistic views are scattered all throughout society. I think it was Faze who said it - misogyny exists on a social level, misandry is a case-by-case basis (in which case is it really misandry)?[/QUOTE] Can you get me the records from our first hunter-gatherer societies wherein the men got together and said "ok guys we really hate women, so let's have them forage and raise chidren while we get to go out and hunt, that will show them!"? There are no records from that time, it's a construct that has existed since before written history. You can't pretend that you know how this shit went down. How is it not misogynist to put men as the disposable gender? That's devaluing the lives of men, putting them below women. I [I]don't[/I] find it flattering to know that when shit goes down I may be expected to die. If you treat this whole issue by looking at is as ONLY A FEMALE PROBLEM, then you will never accomplish equality, while still ironically enough playing into the gender role by putting female problems above male problems.
[QUOTE=SAULSBASHWALL;36711861] How is it not misogynist to put men as the disposable gender? That's devaluing the lives of men, putting them below women. I [I]don't[/I] find it flattering to know that when shit goes down I may be expected to die.[/QUOTE] Men are expected to be soldiers because society thinks women are weaker. Misogyny, sexism against women, is responsible for men being forced into military service. This "disposable gender" shtick that MRA's like to throw around is utter bullshit.
Misandry exists to a small extent but is a pseudo-problem.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;36712074]Men are expected to be soldiers because society thinks women are weaker. Misogyny, sexism against women, is responsible for men being forced into military service. This "disposable gender" shtick that MRA's like to throw around is utter bullshit.[/QUOTE] How do you know that this is the case? Can you provide evidence beyond that it's apparently bullshit? [editline]10th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Reimu;36711416]Most forms of actual misandry in the media - men are stupid, men can't do housework without a woman's help, (married) men are awful romantics - are also so minor and ignorable that it's not worth getting upset about.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, but I think it IS worth getting upset about. Just because it's MALE PROBLEMS LOL WHO CARES doesn't mean they don't exist. I'm not a MRA, I'm an egalitarian, and it sickens me that we think that we're going to solve the problem of gender imbalance by focusing almost entirely on one side and neglecting the problems on the other side.
The problem with misogyny is that so many people don't even know what it is. Whenever I verbally whack any of my friends for making a rape joke or something something misogynistic, I have to travel down that path of explaining it. I'm just glad I have open minded friends, but still, we need to start teaching at least basic level sociology classes in early years then college. And if misogyny is barely known, this conversation perfectly illustrates how very little people even know what misandry looks like.
[QUOTE=Swilly;36712418]The problem with misogyny is that so many people don't even know what it is. Whenever I verbally whack any of my friends for making a rape joke or something something misogynistic, I have to travel down that path of explaining it. I'm just glad I have open minded friends, but still, we need to start teaching at least basic level sociology classes in early years then college.[/QUOTE] i don't think you need to have a sociology class in order to know that a joke is shitty. let me tell you the secret behind telling jokes. it's not a funny joke unless the audience laughs.
[QUOTE=SAULSBASHWALL;36704419]Both sides had advantages and disadvantages. Males were expected to go out to work before females, they were expected to die in wars. To this day, men are considered pretty much infinitely more disposable than women. They had a lot of responsibility and society expected [I]everything[/I] of them. Yeah, they often had rights that women didn't, but they had the bigger share of the responsibilities too. once again, if you're going to belittle male problems just because you think female problems are bigger, [I]even if they actually are[/I], to the point that you see fit to redefine misandry as "side effects of misogyny" you will never achieve gender equality.[/QUOTE] You are literally retarded. Men were not expected to do anything by women, they told the women that they weren't good enough to work or defend their country and were expected to stay home, cook, clean, and spread their legs on demand.
[QUOTE=SAULSBASHWALL;36711861]Can you get me the records from our first hunter-gatherer societies wherein the men got together and said "ok guys we really hate women, so let's have them forage and raise chidren while we get to go out and hunt, that will show them!"? There are no records from that time, it's a construct that has existed since before written history. You can't pretend that you know how this shit went down. How is it not misogynist to put men as the disposable gender? That's devaluing the lives of men, putting them below women. I [I]don't[/I] find it flattering to know that when shit goes down I may be expected to die. If you treat this whole issue by looking at is as ONLY A FEMALE PROBLEM, then you will never accomplish equality, while still ironically enough playing into the gender role by putting female problems above male problems.[/QUOTE] I've never said it's solely a female problem, please go reread my posts. SigmaLambda pretty much sums everything else up.
You need to provide evidence that misandry is real because that's how burden of proof works SAUL Its sexism towards women that saw them left home because it was assumed they were too weak (with the same training they aren't fyi) and if you'd payed attention in your primary school classes you'd have seen it. You are making the claim that sexism to women is actually against men you prove it.
[QUOTE=SAULSBASHWALL;36712296]How do you know that this is the case? Can you provide evidence beyond that it's apparently bullshit?[/QUOTE] Dude? It's fucking history man. It's an incredibly pervasive societal attitude and you have people arguing that women are too weak for combat to this very day: [URL]http://theweek.com/article/index/224344/rick-santorums-sexist-gaffe-women-are-too-emotional-for-combat[/URL] [URL]http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north334.html[/URL] [URL]http://www.fireandknowledge.org/archives/2005/03/21/why-women-should-not-be-allowed-in-combat/[/URL] Even if you wanna continue to harp on the "men have it hard because they have to be soldiers" shtick, you're forgetting (or ignorant of the fact) that, before modern laws of war were implemented (and even after that, to a lesser extent), women of the defeated nations were oftentimes treated like war loot and raped, murdered, or enslaved. That's hardly any better than being forced to be a soldier. [QUOTE=SAULSBASHWALL;36712296]I'm sorry, but I think it IS worth getting upset about. Just because it's MALE PROBLEMS LOL WHO CARES doesn't mean they don't exist. I'm not a MRA, I'm an egalitarian, and it sickens me that we think that we're going to solve the problem of gender imbalance by focusing almost entirely on one side and neglecting the problems on the other side.[/QUOTE] because the other side doesn't have any meaningful problems. The only problems men, specifically, have are the ones that are consequences of anti-female sexism.
[QUOTE=McGii;36712711]You are literally retarded. Men were not expected to do anything by women, they told the women that they weren't good enough to work or defend their country and were expected to stay home, cook, clean, and spread their legs on demand.[/QUOTE] Yes they are. To say that people literally have NO EXPECTATIONS WHATSOEVER of them by anyone is foolish. Also, not saying it's entirely women having high expectations of men, society in general expects more of men. [QUOTE=Protocol7;36712766]I've never said it's solely a female problem, please go reread my posts. SigmaLambda pretty much sums everything else up.[/QUOTE] It seems to me that this is implied when you say things like that what we call misandry is not misandry, that it doesn't deserve to be called that because it's a "side effect of misogyny". If it helps to clarify things, this is what I believe: Both sexes have issues with this antiquated system of gender roles, both made their own gains and losses from it. I personally think that men gained more than women from it, but are not without their own losses. When a man decides that they don't want to die to save someone else who they don't even know, that's a loss. Doesn't matter if the ideas behind it glorify their potential sacrifice. It needs to be changed, and I do believe that since it's an unfairness directed at men, it's misandry. If we truly want gender equality, and [I]not[/I] a system where one sex is "more equal" than the other sex, then we need to embrace the issue in a gender-neutral way. You need to stop blaming the system on men, and the MRAs need to stop blaming the system on women. The only thing that's truly important is that the system, as it currently exists, stops. When (and if) this is all over it's not going to be relevant whose fault it was that it came about in the first place, nor should it be now. Both sides have their issues here, and if you go about minimizing the issues of one side over the other, you're going against your own credo of gender equality. To me, it seems like that's what you're doing when you refuse to call any situation that's clearly working against men misandrist. Both exist in our society, if you choose to deny one to the extent that you won't even call it what it is, then your movement will either fail, or become a monster every bit as horrible as the one it currently faces.
[QUOTE=sgman91;36692218]People don't really make news articles of this kind of thing, but I have plenty of anecdotal evidence and since that's the only kind of evidence that I've seen either way it must take precedence. Another example: Woman gets an abortion even though the father wants to have the kid. She's lauded for using her rights as a woman, but if a man doesn't want to pay child support for a kid he never wanted... he's an irresponsible idiot. I don't know about you, but 9 months of pregnancy is much less of a problem than a lifetime of child support payments.[/QUOTE] Anecdotal evidence is terrible evidence. Sorry man it's her body, she gets to say what happens to it. And if a guy doesn't want to help raise a child and doesn't want to pay child support he is a bit of a dick. Unless there are some unusual circumstances. [editline]10th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;36697238]misandry as an institution doesn't exist just as anti-white racism as an institution doesn't exist. on an individual level it can exist[/QUOTE] what this guy said
[quote]She's lauded for using her rights as a woman[/quote] uh i don't think people praise women for having an abortion.
Saul, the problems women face today are as a direct result of men forcing them down in history. Men today should have the same expectations women as women of men but that doesn't always happen but cases of misandry are extremely rare, especially when you compare the number of cases where it actually happens to the casual sexism towards women in society. And you still haven't proven misandry is even a thing you've just said OH BUT MISANDRY EXISTS BECAUSE MEN WERE SEXIST IN THE PAST AND ITS TOTALLY NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE SEXIST.
[QUOTE=thisispain;36713619]uh i don't think people praise women for having an abortion.[/QUOTE] Unfortunately some people do. Not in that abortion is bad, but because even though it's a pretty startling thing people just go "woohoo women's rights"
Your example is wrong, few people criticise anyone male or female for not giving their life and if they do they are called fucking assholes. Its glorified if they do because they made a fucking huge sacrifice for another person and their actions deserve it. Maybe if you twist it in your head to make it fit your beliefs because you've got nothing else to justify them but apart from that its not and can't be misandry Men are in an advantage compared to women and there is no way to change that without giving women that advantage or lowering men to be equal to women and as it stands giving women the advantage is the best way to do it. [editline]11th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Protocol7;36713652]Unfortunately some people do. Not in that abortion is bad, but because even though it's a pretty startling thing people just go "woohoo women's rights"[/QUOTE] Well yeah when women get the right to chose what they do to their body its a pretty big win for women's rights, especially in a countries like America where a good majority of the population will say they are less than human for doing it.
Women already have equality, that's not what the feminists want. Feminists want superiority. Feminism is another word for misandry.
When you copy paste what stupid shitfucks from r/mra or r/pua say you need to post the link too so everyone can enjoy it
[QUOTE=SAULSBASHWALL;36711861]Can you get me the records from our first hunter-gatherer societies wherein the men got together and said "ok guys we really hate women, so let's have them forage and raise chidren while we get to go out and hunt, that will show them!"? [/QUOTE] Men were hunters because women were busy caring for children. It's not some secret female conspiracy against men. In fact, all the misandry you are complaining about (the "disposable gender") is inflicted on men my other men. The only real motive I can see for men to make their gender "disposable" is if they actually believe women are weaker than men.
[QUOTE=SAULSBASHWALL;36712296]I'm sorry, but I think it IS worth getting upset about. Just because it's MALE PROBLEMS LOL WHO CARES doesn't mean they don't exist. I'm not a MRA, I'm an egalitarian, and it sickens me that we think that we're going to solve the problem of gender imbalance by focusing almost entirely on one side and neglecting the problems on the other side.[/QUOTE] But what we're finding out is that one gender has very minor problems ("oh no sometimes men are portrayed as dumb!") while another gender has major problems (unrealistically high expectations for physical appearance, higher non-jail rape statistics, higher abuse rate, lower wage pay, higher likelihood of sexual harassment, etc etc). The only real concern that men should have is that the gender balance is not broken in political/social/economic reform. Men and women should hold equal rights, fair and square. [QUOTE=ButtsexV3;36714202]Women already have equality, that's not what the feminists want. Feminists want superiority. Feminism is another word for misandry.[/QUOTE] No, that's what radical feminists want. Most feminists are looking for an extension of female equality, just as modern black civil rights leaders are looking for an extension of racial equality. Comparing feminism to superiority is like comparing modern civil rights practices to black superiority.
[QUOTE=Loen;36697039]This also can be abused and exploited by women in a relationship, where they can threaten to claim "rape" if the man doesn't comply. Because of misogyny, the woman can garner easy sympathy and protection[/QUOTE] No, misogyny would result in the woman not being taken seriously for her claims. Feminism resulted in the above, not misogyny.
[QUOTE=Reimu;36714656]But what we're finding out is that one gender has very minor problems ("oh no sometimes men are portrayed as dumb!") while another gender has major problems (unrealistically high expectations for physical appearance, higher non-jail rape statistics, higher abuse rate, lower wage pay, higher likelihood of sexual harassment, etc etc).[/QUOTE] If something is based on factual physical differences it isn't really sexist/misogyny/misandry. I would assume smaller men also have higher abuse rates than larger men. We also know that shorter men make less than taller men (it's actually very comparable to the male/female difference), etc. You can't just say that women have worse statistics in a certain realm simply because they're women, there are many possible explanations. It makes logical sense to discriminate based on size of the person for certain jobs and since women are more likely to be smaller they will be less likely to get that job. This type of difference has nothing to do with the person being a woman, but statistics would still show that women have a smaller portion of that job market.
[QUOTE=prooboo;36715112]No, misogyny would result in the woman not being taken seriously for her claims. Feminism resulted in the above, not misogyny.[/QUOTE] Feminism is a direct result of misogyny so either way you are agreeing with him (but you're way of agreeing with him is wrong) [editline]11th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;36715179]If something is based on factual physical differences it isn't really sexist/misogyny/misandry. I would assume smaller men also have higher abuse rates than larger men. We also know that shorter men make less than taller men (it's actually very comparable to the male/female difference), etc. You can't just say that women have worse statistics in a certain realm simply because they're women, there are many possible explanations. It makes logical sense to discriminate based on size of the person for certain jobs and since women are more likely to be smaller they will be less likely to get that job. This type of difference has nothing to do with the person being a woman, but statistics would still show that women have a smaller portion of that job market.[/QUOTE] [citation needed] [img]http://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/2/0/biotruths.001.gif[/img]
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;36714202]Women already have equality, that's not what the feminists want. Feminists want superiority. Feminism is another word for misandry.[/QUOTE] Well apparently you're not one so I don't really think you're a trustworthy source on what they want. My dictionary brings up: [quote]The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.[/quote] What you're talking about is strictly misandry; everyone should be a feminist, because all people deserve to be treated equally.
[QUOTE=Reimu;36714656]But what we're finding out is that one gender has very minor problems ("oh no sometimes men are portrayed as dumb!") while another gender has major problems (unrealistically high expectations for physical appearance, higher non-jail rape statistics, higher abuse rate, lower wage pay, higher likelihood of sexual harassment, etc etc). The only real concern that men should have is that the gender balance is not broken in political/social/economic reform. Men and women should hold equal rights, fair and square. No, that's what radical feminists want. Most feminists are looking for an extension of female equality, just as modern black civil rights leaders are looking for an extension of racial equality. Comparing feminism to superiority is like comparing modern civil rights practices to black superiority.[/QUOTE] being portrayed as dumb is not the only problem men have. Ever notice how it's okay for women to wear jeans, but it's "weird" for men to wear skirts? This doesn't affect most men, but for those it does affect, it's a HUGE problem.
[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;36715622]being portrayed as dumb is not the only problem men have. Ever notice how it's okay for women to wear jeans, but it's "weird" for men to wear skirts? This doesn't affect most men, but for those it does affect, it's a HUGE problem.[/QUOTE] that's because of misogyny. The reason society tolerates women who act masculine somewhat more than men who act feminine because femininity is seen as weakness; whereas masculinity is seen as something to aspire to. All of these "problems" that men face that you people list are problems that are the result of misogyny, not misandry.
[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;36715622]being portrayed as dumb is not the only problem men have. Ever notice how it's okay for women to wear jeans, but it's "weird" for men to wear skirts? This doesn't affect most men, but for those it does affect, it's a HUGE problem.[/QUOTE] thats not a misandry problem you dork its a tranny problem and btw jeans are mutlisexual just like shirts are [editline]11th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=SigmaLambda;36715689]that's because of misogyny. The reason society tolerates women who act masculine somewhat more than men who act feminine because femininity is seen as weakness; whereas masculinity is seen as something to aspire to. [/QUOTE] Basically this except he was polite about it
[QUOTE=McGii;36715696]thats not a misandry problem you dork its a tranny problem[/QUOTE] No I'm pretty sure it is, and usin' the word tranny isn't cool man.
[QUOTE=McGii;36715513][citation needed] [IMG]http://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/2/0/biotruths.001.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE] On height affecting salary: [URL]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/5887567/Tall-men-earn-more-than-shorter-colleagues-research-claims..html[/URL] "That makes height as important as race or gender as a determinant of wages. And it works for women as well as men. The University of Pennsylvania study found that even among female identical twins (whose heights can differ more than you might expect), the taller sister earns, on average, substantially more than the shorter." The basic claim doesn't need citation though. I'm just saying that correlation=/=causation. This means that a stat by itself isn't enough to conclude that the cause is misogyny/misandry. It needs to be shown that the discrimination is based purely on sex, not on factual differences.
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