Spanking your child as punishment- Ethical or not? - General

[QUOTE=TestECull;35806882]Grounding doesn't work. Timeouts don't work. Spanking does. I was spanked as a kid. Never severely, and I really had to cock up to get it, but I did get a couple thwacks on the ass a couple times. Unlike the OP, though, I didn't end up violent because of it, and I don't hate or resent my parents over it.[/QUOTE] Agreed. Sometimes a bit of spanking is acceptable in my eyes. Today's society has too many soccer moms complaining about it. I don't support harsher ways like doing it with a leather belt. Some spanks done by hand though, is perfectly fine in cases where other methods just don't cut it.

I think its perfectly fine at times. Take for example your in a store and your kid asks for something, you tell him no, and he starts yelling/screaming/etc. Telling him he can't play with another toy at a later time most likely isn't going to shut him up, but he knows if he doesn't do what you say hes gonna be in pain for days.

I believe that if a child is acting out severely in public, spanking is necessary. You have to teach them how to behave and in my experience, a little person will not really understand unless there is something physical they can associate the behavior with. After spanking, you need to have a talk with them about why you spanked them and why what they did is wrong. In private, setting them in a corner or sending them to their room is a better practice.

[QUOTE=Orkel;35816339]Agreed. Sometimes a bit of spanking is acceptable in my eyes. Today's society has too many soccer moms complaining about it. I don't support harsher ways like doing it with a leather belt. Some spanks done by hand though, is perfectly fine in cases where other methods just don't cut it.[/QUOTE] Yes, because all the people in this thread against it are the equivalent of 'soccer moms'.

I was spanked as a child, not often, but every once in a long while. I also don't know anyone with a better relationship with their parents than I have. (I'm 21 now)

[QUOTE=Orkel;35816339]Agreed. Sometimes a bit of spanking is acceptable in my eyes. Today's society has too many soccer moms complaining about it. I don't support harsher ways like doing it with a leather belt. Some spanks done by hand though, is perfectly fine in cases where other methods just don't cut it.[/QUOTE] I'm an alcoholic, vulgar, loudmouthed mexican dude who is also apparently a soccer mom now.

Well I'm no psychiatrist but here's what [I]I THINK[/I] happens. Spanking does not necessarily have to involve pain. A quick yet gentle smack will shock the child without causing them any harm, this provides immediate feedback that what they just did was wrong and that they should not do that again. The sudden sensation of physical contact and the sharp noise of flesh clapping on flesh makes a smack more a thing of the mind than it is a physical strike. Now Instinctively most humans respond to something that makes them angry with violence. Of course being the civilised chaps, we've moved on a bit, but the idea of it is still there. This is what the idea of a smack taps into, the child will know that being struck physically will mean they wronged someone in some way. They will remember that wrong actions will be met with retribution and will attempt to avoid them somewhat. Now lets make doubly sure of the distinction here. A gentle smack is all it takes, not to hurt the child, just to shock them, anything harder is unnecessary and cruel. However this gentle smack is fine, and it works. I myself am a case in point, I soon learned that being an all around little shit is a bad idea.

anecdotal evidence anecdotal evidence all up in this thread

[QUOTE=Lankist;35819568]anecdotal evidence anecdotal evidence all up in this thread[/QUOTE] So? As in, I am not trying to change anybody's mind, I am just saying the reason why I have my view is because of my personal experience. I don't hate or fear my parents and never have, I am not violent at all and I found other punishments much more upsetting than being smacked when I was a child. You don't have to agree with me though.

So anecdotal evidence is stupid bullshit and the scientific evidence indicates that [url=http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-8624.2011.01663.x/abstract]punitive discipline teaches children how to lie more effectively (and maintain the lie when questioned) in order to avoid reprisal, rather than how to listen to authority.[/url] [editline]4th May 2012[/editline] [url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/art-markman-phd/punishment-helps-kids-lea_b_1179792.html[/url] News link if you don't like reading journals and abstracts [editline]4th May 2012[/editline] Of course, if YOU turned out "okay," then I'm sure the world should operate on that premise.

[QUOTE=Lankist;35819762] Of course, if YOU turned out "okay," then I'm sure the world should operate on that premise.[/QUOTE] You're twisting my words, I actually stated "you don't have to agree with me", when did I ever say everyone has to follow the way I was raised? There sure are kids who have been damaged by smacking, some kids react particularly badly to it like I did with people confiscating my stuff and some parents mix "smacking" with "beating" or dole out punishments cruelly. I am just saying in my *opinion*, smacking it is not the worst thing in the world and the alternatives are not always better. Upon reading the article you linked, it said extensive physical and verbal punishments.

I remember some article years ago where a 23 year old sued his parents for spanking him as a kid, but the parents did not recall harming the child for it was their way of punishing. The kid won the case cause it is still considered physical abuse, even if it is just a punishment for bad behavior. Also it is not as effective as simply taking their games away or something else they value. It has been proven that when you show violence and physical abuse it will make the child angry and provokes the child to make the same mistake again because the child will sense that the parent is powerless and has to resort to violence to 'overpower' the child (which then allows the child to mentally justify his actions), whereas a non-violent punishment will have the child calm down and think about what he has done wrong. [editline]4th May 2012[/editline] Well, those are the facts, if it's ethical is a whole other story.

My parents quite often spanked me when I was a child with a belt, sometimes for weird reasons like because I forgot to brush my teeth (???) I guess that's where me disliking my parents comes from.

I think that hitting children will make them think it's okay to hit others, since children are so easily manipulated. It's proven that if a child sees their parent(s) smoking then they're more likely to later in life, and I believe it works the same way with pretty much everything else, like it wires them into thinking "if someone does something bad then they must be physically hurt", and since that's what they've known all their life, they don't see it any other way. I'm not suggesting that's what happens in all cases of it ever, but I would assume it does speak for the majority I was never hit as a child, I'd rather attack someone psychologically than physically, unless they're really, really asking for it

[QUOTE=Lankist;35819762]So anecdotal evidence is stupid bullshit and the scientific evidence indicates that [url=http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-8624.2011.01663.x/abstract]punitive discipline teaches children how to lie more effectively (and maintain the lie when questioned) in order to avoid reprisal, rather than how to listen to authority.[/url] [editline]4th May 2012[/editline] [url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/art-markman-phd/punishment-helps-kids-lea_b_1179792.html[/url] News link if you don't like reading journals and abstracts [editline]4th May 2012[/editline] Of course, if YOU turned out "okay," then I'm sure the world should operate on that premise.[/QUOTE] I have a few questions for that study: 1) How do they define a "punitive environment?" Of course there's a difference between parents who hit their kid with a club every other day and parents who give spanks every once in a long while. 2) This idea of lying is such a small part of child development it doesn't really conclude anything about the overall effectiveness of spanking. What if they lie more, but disobey less often?

Did you read the abstract?

[QUOTE=Lankist;35823660]Did you read the abstract?[/QUOTE] ... of course I did. It never defines "punitive environment" and it just says "most children peeked," but doesn't talk about the breakdown of who peeked and who didn't. Most could be anything from 51-99%. Like I said, even if you took it at face value it still doesn't even touch on the validity of spanking because of it's narrow focus. This study is also talking about physical punishment in school, not by parents. So for all we know the parents of all the kids used spanking. Also, according to this: [URL]http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111024133033.htm[/URL] these were the types of punishments used in a "punitive environment:" "beating with a stick, slapping of the head, and pinching were administered publicly and routinely for offenses ranging from forgetting a pencil to being disruptive in class." Now doesn't that seem a bit different than rare spanking by parents?

Uhm, punitive schools are schools which engage in severe verbal coupled with light/medium physical punishments for any infractions. i.e. a paddlin'.

Good job not even responding to the points I made. I also listed what actions were considered a "punitive environment" for the study. It also said these actions were done "publicly and routinely." The main problem with this study is that is literally has nothing to do with spanking. For all we know all the children were spanked at home.

Uhm, location and severity of physical abuse does not alter its effect, only the net result. The study is about the effect of fear of retribution upon children in terms of discipline. You don't understand how studies work if you can say "well they didn't SPANK them." That's like reading a study which implies decapitation, dismemberment and disemboweling leads to severe blood loss and saying "well they didn't STAB them, did they?" [editline]4th May 2012[/editline] as though to imply spanking is somehow magically different from any other form of physical discipline.

Rare spanking of parents in a private environment as a last resort is markedly different from "public and routine... beating with a stick, slapping of the head, and pinching... for offenses ranging from forgetting a pencil to being disruptive in class." The conclusion of the study isn't even to stop corporal punishment... after reading some of the actual study in question it's obvious that you are taking it much further than it was ever intended to be taken. The author actually uses regular preschoolers from the US as an example of not living in a "punitive environment" without even questioning if they were corporeally punished by parents.

hey guys i disagree with these conclusions so the scientists are incompetent and/or liars yeah that's how it works.

I'm just going to assume you're trolling me and ignore it. I read the entire study in question and your conclusion is never even mentioned in it. Like I said, they use regular US children as examples of not living in a punitive environment.

[QUOTE=sgman91;35826455]I'm just going to assume you can't read and ignore you. I read the entire study in question and your conclusion is never even mentioned in it. Like I said, they use regular US children as examples of not living in a punitive environment.[/QUOTE] its in the fucking abstract [quote]Thus, a punitive environment not only fosters increased dishonesty but also children’s abilities to lie to conceal their transgressions.[/quote] And somehow I doubt you have a subscription to a service that carries Child Development. [editline]4th May 2012[/editline] Your only fucking argument is "nnngh parents spanking their children is different" you never mention WHY or provide any equivalent evidence in support of the notion that parental spanking is demonstrably different from any other form of physical discipline, thus there is absolutely nothing for me to rebuke. If you would like to post some sort of evidence which supports your claims, I would be happy to acknowledge them.

I'm reading it from my university campus, which does have a subscription. I'll just keep saying it until you respond: They use US children as examples of a non-punitive environment in the study. You are saying the punitive environment in the study is similar enough to parental spanking that the conclusions are transferable when the study itself compares regular US children to the children who weren't in a punitive environment. You are literally doing the exact opposite of what the author of the study does.

US children are the example because spanking (i.e. physical punishment) is highly discouraged and very uncommon in the majority of the United States. They have fucking margins of error and test with a range of individuals for a reason. You aren't going to invalidate scientific research by blindly nit-picking under no particular thesis. What you're saying does not change anything. It does not uproot the conclusion that children in punitive environments misbehave MORE than children in nonpunitive environments, and simply learn to lie more effectively in order to avoid reprisal. If you would like to provide a proper argument, I'll take the time to respond to it. Until then, you've said absolutely nothing worth responding to. Just a bunch of incoherent gibberish bouncing from point to point with no particular thesis.

Whatever man, you are making up conclusions that don't actually exist in the study and then telling me I'm nit-picking by not agreeing.

Somehow I think I value the input of qualified child psychology experts over yours.

The definition of punitive environment Directly from the study in question: "authoritarian parenting, characterized by harsh physical and⁄ or verbal punishment." There's a reason they put the word "harsh" in the definition. Notice how they didn't define it as all physical punishment.

so as long as spanking isn't authoritarian it's okay yeah sure pal you keep fighting the good fight. [editline]4th May 2012[/editline] never have children