The Jihadist Next Door

[dimitrik129]

[QUOTE=Zyler;50858501]
Which organizations? What exactly are they proposing and how many people follow them?[/QUOTE]

TalkIslam is one of the largest with 361,917+ subscribers is funded by iERA and frequently have iERA members on the show.

iERA
[url]https://www.iera.org/[/url]

TalkIslam
[url]https://www.youtube.com/user/lebo2196[/url]

[video=youtube;6DUtLvv6Scg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DUtLvv6Scg[/video]

iERA Members Join ISIS

[QUOTE]UK Salafist Group Linked to British ISIS Fighters

[I]"Islamic radicals [are] hiding behind the scenes, influencing the minds of young people. ... Someone is persuading them, brainwashing them." — Ahmed Muthana, father of the jihadist Muthana brothers.[/I]

"In Britain, the fingerprints of a number of Salafist preachers and organizations in Portsmouth seem to be present in the departure of young British Muslims to fight and kill in foreign lands. The most notable is the Islamic Education and Research Academy (iERA), a Salafist dawah [proselytising] group.

The Portsmouth Five were members of the Portsmouth Dawah Team, a group of local proselytisers who wore iERA clothing and distributed iERA literature."

[url]https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4892/iera-isis-fighters[/url]
[/QUOTE]

Sh Hussain Yee (founding member of iERA)

[QUOTE]
"...Because the Jews - they have gone so far against Allah's commands. They like to do a lot of things that are very extreme. The most extremist nation is the Jews. So if they used "extremists," it doesn't apply to Muslims. It applies to Jews. They are the extremists of the world. That's why they kill the Palestinians every day..."

Transcript from same speech (cannot find YouTube video)

"...But the world is very unjust. Who is unjust? We? No. The Twin Towers is unjust? No. What is unjust is what is happening in Iraq. It's very unjust. What is happening in Palestine is very unjust. So don't worry about the Twin Towers. We (Muslims) have nothing to do with it."

"...You know who was very happy when the Twin Towers had been attacked? A group of Jews was so happy in America. They were having a part when they heard that the Twin Towers had been burned. They had a celebration, they had a party going on..."

[video]https://youtu.be/Us95F5XEdek?t=164[/video][/QUOTE]

Dr. Muhammad Saleh (founding member of iERA)

[QUOTE]
[B]Students of the University of Basel sponsored Islamists[/B]

[I]D. Pomper - The Muslim Students Association Basel has supported the annual conference of the Islamic Central Switzerland. The university has called off the club.
[/I]
Only six months ago, the University of Basel approved the registration of the association "Muslim Students Association Basel» MSB as student organization. But how his future will be like, is uncertain. Because the MSB has a sponsor of the annual conference of the Islamic Central Council of Switzerland ICCS, which took place in December last year. The conference was being criticized in advance. The guest speaker of the TV preacher Muhammad Salah was invited, which calls among other things for the killing of renegade Muslims. Then the Swiss authorities had imposed an entry ban against him.

[url]http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/story/Studenten-der-Uni-Basel-sponserten-Islamisten-29309809[/url]
[/QUOTE]

Abdur Raheem Green (founding member of iERA)

[QUOTE][B]Islam preacher says it is ok for men to beat their wives[/B]

[url]http://www.lapidomedia.com/node/2781[/url][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
[B]"The speaker, Abdurraheem Green, has spoken of a "Yehudi [Jewish] ... stench" and urged Muslims to "push them [Jews] to the side." In addition, he encourages men to hit their wives to "bring them to goodness," and has called for the killing of homosexuals and adulterers."[/B]

[url]https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5778/uk-hate-groups[/url][/QUOTE]

Hamza Tzortzis (Speaker for iERA)

[QUOTE]
[B]UK Islamist Hamza Tzortzis ‘Found’ on Ashley Madison Hack List[/B]

[url]http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/08/23/uk-islamist-hamza-tzortzis-found-on-ashley-madison-hack-list/[/url][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Zyler;50858501]Individual Christians still have to ignore the parts of the bible that are barbaric. There are many sects of Christianity that do follow those teachings and are detrimental to society, especially when it comes to the treatment of women and LGBT people.

There is no consensus among all Muslims to follow one interpretation of Islam, in fact there are many different interpretations as varied as the ones which follow Christianity.

Firstly, you have to demonstrate that there is an official source or official organisation within Islamic culture that dictates what you're suggesting. Secondly, you need to prove that pretty much all Muslims follow the exact direction of that official source or body.
[/QUOTE]

You are comparing Christians refusing [almost always respectfully] to bake a cake for a gay couple (because it against their religion) and Islamic countries that practice sharia law (and execute homosexuals [thrown off buildings, stoning, burning]). The mental gymnastics you have to do to create comparisons like that is ridiculous.

You ask for an official source or organization. Surely, the governments of these Middle Eastern countries (the ones that enforce the barbaric teachings of the Quran and Hadith [stoning of women being raped, execution of homosexuals, oppression of women, etc.]) be considered an official source or organization as well?

[Zyler]

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50858902]TalkIslam is one of the largest with 361,917+ subscribers is funded by iERA and frequently have iERA members on the show.

iERA
[URL]https://www.iera.org/[/URL]

TalkIslam
[URL]https://www.youtube.com/user/lebo2196[/URL]

[video=youtube;6DUtLvv6Scg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DUtLvv6Scg[/video]

iERA Members Join ISIS

Sh Hussain Yee (founding member of iERA)

Dr. Muhammad Saleh (founding member of iERA)

Abdur Raheem Green (founding member of iERA)

Hamza Tzortzis (Speaker for iERA)[/QUOTE]

So that's 362,000 out of 1.2 Billion so far.

[QUOTE]You are comparing Christians refusing [almost always respectfully] to bake a cake for a gay couple (because it against their religion) and Islamic countries that practice sharia law (and execute homosexuals [thrown off buildings, stoning, burning]). The mental gymnastics you have to do to create comparisons like that is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

Am I? I'm pretty sure I'm comparing public executions of LGBT people in Christian-dominated African countries, fatal bombings of abortion clinics and mass shootings by Christian extremists and numerous other acts of violence by Christians who cite their faith as justification.

Thanks for letting me know you can read my mind, but you're wrong.

[QUOTE]You ask for an official source or organization. Surely, the governments of these Middle Eastern countries (the ones that enforce the barbaric teachings of the Quran and Hadith [stoning of women being raped, execution of homosexuals, oppression of women, etc.]) be considered an official source or organization as well?[/QUOTE]

So not Muslims as a whole, but the leaders of these specific dictatorships? You know most of the people killed by ISIS were Muslims right?

And I'm sure the local mosques who were organizing blood donations for the victims of the Orlando shooting were part of this plot too.

[Silly Sil]

The comparison of Islam with Christianity is baffling to me. It's not comparable.
The only way it would be comparable would be if majority of Christianity was still the way it was in dark ages before all the reforms and the most progressive Christians would be like today's conservative Christians. Not only that but Catholics, Orthodoxes and Protestants would be calling themselves the "true" Christians, rejecting the other branches for being total blasphemy. And the "progressive" Christian branch would be so small that it wouldn't have it's own name, and those would be the people who are rejecting bad parts of the dark ages' Christianity on their own.

Christianity had it's reforms and while the texts are still in the bible, they are disregarded by the consensus of the majority and by official stance of the Catholic church. [B]This did not happen with Islam.[/B] "Westernized" Muslims are rejecting bad parts of Islam [B]on their own[/B]. They are not part of the mainstream.

When people say "Islam is the problem". They mean the mainstream. Muslims who support sharia are not a small sect of Islam like Westboro Baptist Church is a sect of Christianity. They are the majority (in the world). The usage of the word is correct. It wouldn't be if it was the other way around and "westernized" moderate Muslims would be the majority and the mainstream but they are not.

That said I realize that, while technically correct, saying "Islam is to blame" might be disheartening to moderate Muslims, since there is no actual distinction of them. And it might make them feel unwanted in the community and blamed for actions of other Muslims who they don't really associate themselves with.

[SKS]

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50856346]Name one thing about the table under your monitor that makes it peaceful.

Religions aren't "peaceful" or "violent" by design. They are belief systems that govern the topics of metaphysical nature. They are ambigous, and open to interpretation.

[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence#Interpretation_of_Holy_Texts"]Read a little.[/URL][/QUOTE]

Except when the religion isn't open to interpretation

Like in the case of Islam

Where the scripture is to be taken literally as the precise word of god (or rather a messenger of god), transcribed in the one language of the religion, word for word, by the one true prophet and perfect man.

[Silly Sil]

[QUOTE=Zyler;50859509]So that's 362,000 out of 1.2 Billion so far.
And I'm sure the local mosques who were organizing blood donations for the victims of the Orlando shooting were part of this plot too.[/QUOTE]
Why is that Islam apologists have to create this abysmal strawmen?
[QUOTE=Zyler;50859509]Am I? I'm pretty sure I'm comparing public executions of LGBT people in Christian-dominated African countries, fatal bombings of abortion clinics and mass shootings by Christian extremists and numerous other acts of violence by Christians who cite their faith as justification.

Thanks for letting me know you can read my mind, but you're wrong. [/QUOTE]
Are people in this African countries following the mainstream Christianity endorsed by the Pope and the Catholic Church or their own made up version?
[QUOTE=Zyler;50859509]So not Muslims as a whole, but the leaders of these specific dictatorships? [/QUOTE]
Alright so the dictatorships are forcing the Sharia against their citizens? Only small percent of citizens of Muslim Countries actually want Sharia? You got any proof of that?
[QUOTE=Zyler;50859509]You know most of the people killed by ISIS were Muslims right? [/QUOTE]
Different branches of Islam consider other ones blasphemy. And the most violent branch actually kills people from the other branches. What's your point?

[Zyler]

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50859585]Why is that Islam apologists have to create this abysmal strawmen?[/QUOTE]

I asked him for proof that there is a consensus that all Muslims follow the beliefs he was espousing and he gave me a YouTube channel with 362,000 subscribers. There are 1.2 billion muslims in the world.

That's not a strawman. A strawman is when you create a false facsimile of the other person's argument.

If anything, you're the one strawmanning me.

[QUOTE]Are people in this African countries following the mainstream Christianity endorsed by the Pope and the Catholic Church or their own made up version?[/QUOTE]

Do all Christians follow the Catholic Church? I'm pretty sure Protestants and Anglicans exist. Why is Catholicism the official version of Christianity? There's definitely no consensus amongst Christians supporting that.

[QUOTE]Alright so the dictatorships are forcing the Sharia against their citizens? Only small percent of citizens of Muslim Countries actually want Sharia? You got any proof of that?[/QUOTE]

Have we got proof either way? Why do you assume that people living under a dictatorship that outlaws free speech and protest against the government want to live under a dictatorship? Why would large numbers of them want to leave the country and come to western democracies if that were the case? Do the actions of every western Government, including the US, reflect the beliefs of their citizens too?

[QUOTE]Different branches of Islam consider other ones blasphemy. And the most violent branch actually kills people from the other branches. What's your point?[/QUOTE]

If all Muslims supported the same things as each other, why would they kill other Muslims?

[Silly Sil]

[QUOTE=Zyler;50859607]If all Muslims supported the same things as each other, why would they kill other Muslims?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Zyler;50859607]I asked him for proof that there is a consensus that all Muslims follow the beliefs he was espousing and he gave me a YouTube channel with 362,000 subscribers. There are 1.2 billion muslims in the world.

That's not a strawman. A strawman is when you create a false facsimile of the other person's argument[/QUOTE]
If it's not a strawman then please quote dmitrik where he said every single Muslim follows the same exact thing.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50859607]Do all Christians follow the Catholic Church? I'm pretty sure Protestants and Anglicans exist. Why is Catholicism the official version of Christianity? There's definitely no consensus amongst Christians supporting that.[/QUOTE]
Stop weaseling out and answer the fucking question. Is the African interpretation of the Bible a major, significant branch of Christianity? Even if we reject "official" stance of Christian leaders, there's a consensus among vast majority of Christians not to follow the laws from old testament. Those would be the smaller branches straying away from mainstream. Not the other way around.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50859607]Have we got proof either way? [/QUOTE]
So you don't have proof. You were making shit up.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50859607]Why do you assume that people living under a dictatorship that outlaws free speech and protest against the government want to live under a dictatorship?[/QUOTE]
Another strawman. Quote me where I said they want to live under the dictatorship. I asked you about their support of sharia law, not about their support of their government.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50859607]Why would large numbers of them want to leave the country and come to western democracies if that were the case?[/QUOTE]
Maybe it's something to do with wars and poverty? Maybe some who leave did it because they hate sharia, I give you that, but maybe many of them who are leaving still support sharia and are leaving for a different reason?
[QUOTE=Zyler;50859607]Do the actions of every western Government, including the US, reflect the beliefs of their citizens too?[/QUOTE]
That depends. It's easier to tell in democracy since you vote for your REPRESENTATIVES. But even then you can take a poll and find out.
[quote]In Egypt 81 percent said they agreed with the alQaeda goal of “requir[ing] a strict application of Shari’a law in every Islamic country” (65% strongly); only 12 percent disagreed. Pakistanis were similar with 76 percent agreeing with this goal (52% strongly); 5 percent disagreed. Indonesians ,however, agreed by only a narrow plurality: 49 percent supported the goal (just 14% strongly), while 42 percent disagreed. In Morocco in late 2006, 76 percent agreed.
[/quote]
[URL]http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf[/URL]
But you don't trust the poll made under censorious dictatorship. Okay.

[quote]33% of American-Muslims polled answered "Sharia" to the question: If shariah conflicts with the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights, which law should be considered supreme? [/quote]
[URL]http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/150612-CSP-Polling-Company-Nationwide-Online-Survey-of-Muslims-Topline-Poll-Data.pdf[/URL]
[quote]40% of British-Muslims want Sharia law[/quote]
[URL]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-3-British-Muslim-students-killing-Islam-40-want-Sharia-law.html[/URL]
[URL]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html[/URL]

40% of Muslims who are not living in countries with dominant western culture still support sharia. You can only expect this number to be higher in the countries where Islamic culture is dominant as shown above. But I guess UK and USA are a oppressive, censorious dictatorships and this opinion is being forced on them, yes?

Moderate Muslims are a minority branch that doesn't follow the mainstream. Not the other way around. Stop denying reality.

[Zyler]

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50859733]If it's not a strawman then please quote dmitrik where he said every single Muslim follows the same exact thing.[/QUOTE]

I asked him the question and he responded to it:
[QUOTE=Zyler;50858501]Individual Christians still have to ignore the parts of the bible that are barbaric. There are many sects of Christianity that do follow those teachings and are detrimental to society, especially when it comes to the treatment of women and LGBT people.

There is no consensus among all Muslims to follow one interpretation of Islam, in fact there are many different interpretations as varied as the ones which follow Christianity.

[B]Firstly, you have to demonstrate that there is an official source or official organisation within Islamic culture that dictates what you're suggesting. Secondly, you need to prove that pretty much all Muslims follow the exact direction of that official source or body.[/B]

[editline]10th August 2016[/editline]

Which organizations? What exactly are they proposing and how many people follow them?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50858902]TalkIslam is one of the largest with 361,917+ subscribers is funded by iERA and frequently have iERA members on the show.

iERA
[URL]https://www.iera.org/[/URL]

TalkIslam
[URL]https://www.youtube.com/user/lebo2196[/URL]

[video=youtube;6DUtLvv6Scg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DUtLvv6Scg[/video]

iERA Members Join ISIS

Sh Hussain Yee (founding member of iERA)

Dr. Muhammad Saleh (founding member of iERA)

Abdur Raheem Green (founding member of iERA)

Hamza Tzortzis (Speaker for iERA)

You are comparing Christians refusing [almost always respectfully] to bake a cake for a gay couple (because it against their religion) and Islamic countries that practice sharia law (and execute homosexuals [thrown off buildings, stoning, burning]). The mental gymnastics you have to do to create comparisons like that is ridiculous.

You ask for an official source or organization. Surely, the governments of these Middle Eastern countries (the ones that enforce the barbaric teachings of the Quran and Hadith [stoning of women being raped, execution of homosexuals, oppression of women, etc.]) be considered an official source or organization as well?[/QUOTE]

That's not a strawman, that's literally what happened.

[B][QUOTE]Stop weaseling out and answer the fucking question. Is the African interpretation of the Bible a major, significant branch of Christianity? Even if we reject "official" stance of Christian leaders, there's a consensus among vast majority of Christians not to follow the laws from old testament. Those would be the smaller branches straying away from mainstream. Not the other way around.[/QUOTE][/B]

I responded to your question by saying that there is no official stance of Christianity, just as there is no official stance of Islam that states what dimitrik was proposing. Dimitrik was the one proposing that there was a consensus amongst Muslims, my point what that there was not.

I specifically stated this outright in my first post here:
[QUOTE=Zyler;50858501][B]Individual Christians still have to ignore the parts of the bible that are barbaric. There are many sects of Christianity that do follow those teachings and are detrimental to society, especially when it comes to the treatment of women and LGBT people.[/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]So you don't have proof. You were making shit up.[/QUOTE]

I stated that there's no proof either way. Why are you making assumptions without evidence? Shouldn't the burden of proof be on the person accusing a large number of people of holding a singular belief without any evidence?

[QUOTE]Another strawman. Quote me where I said they want to live under the dictatorship. I asked you about their support of sharia law, not about their support of their government.[/QUOTE]

I was not asking you if you wanted to live under a dictatorship. I was asking you why you were assuming people who were fleeing from a dictatorial regime supported the beliefs of said regime.

[QUOTE]Maybe it's something to do with wars and poverty? [B]Maybe[/B] some who leave did it because they hate sharia, I give you that, but [bmaybe[/b] many of them who are leaving still support sharia and are leaving for a different reason?[/QUOTE]

If you don't know why they are leaving, why are you so adamant that they believe what you think they believe? You're stating you don't know what they believe but you're also stating that you know what their exact beliefs are when it comes to religion.

Also, there are many interpretations of what sharia law actually means, just because someone states they believe in sharia law doesn't mean they support violent extremism or killing people. It's the same way Christians can support the ten commandments without wanting to kill gays.

[QUOTE]That depends. It's easier to tell in democracy since you vote for your REPRESENTATIVES. But even then you can take a poll and find out.[/QUOTE]

Most people aren't happy with their elected officials in Government, especially in the US. You can look at polls that show this. The two current presidential candidates have around the highest unfavourability ratings of candidates in history.

[QUOTE][URL]http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf[/URL]
But you don't trust the poll made under censorious dictatorship. Okay.[/QUOTE]

So why bring it up?

[QUOTE][URL]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-3-British-Muslim-students-killing-Islam-40-want-Sharia-law.html[/URL][/QUOTE]

[URL]https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/dec/22/1[/URL]

[QUOTE]The figures were dodgy in 2008, and they're dodgy now, painting a spectacularly misleading picture of the results of a poll of British Muslim students conducted by the Centre for Social Cohesion. Unfortunately the original poll is no longer online, but luckily I worked through some of the actual questions two years ago (Edit:Now found. Many thanks to Press Not Sorry on Twitter for digging out where the poll results had moved to.)Let's take the two big assertions, summarized neatly in the Mail's 2010 article: "1 in 3 British Muslim students back killing for Islam and 40% want Sharia law." What questions were actually asked?
"How supportive, if at all, would you be of the official introduction of Shari'ah Law into British law for Muslims in Britain?"
Very supportive - 21%
Fairly supportive - 19%"
The headline conveniently drops the clause "for Muslims", and in 2008 the clause was buried from the article completely. 2010's reporting is fractionally better, but still implies a black & white debate when in reality the question accomodates a range of views - what does "fairly supportive" mean, for example?[/QUOTE]

There are more problems with the poll pointed out in the article.

[QUOTE][URL]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html[/URL]

40% of Muslims who are not living in countries with dominant western culture still support sharia. You can only expect this number to be higher in the countries where Islamic culture is dominant as shown above.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][URL]http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.o...-Poll-Data.pdf[/URL][/QUOTE]

Like I said earlier, Sharia law can mean different things to different people. Like the ten commandments.

That second poll even states that the majority of the interviewed Muslims stated that it should be up to the individual to choose how to interpret Sharia Law.

[QUOTE]With respect to shariah, do you believe that (ROTATE):
45% IT IS UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL MUSLIM TO DEFINE SHARIAH[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]But I guess UK and USA are a oppressive, censorious dictatorships and this opinion is being forced on them, yes?[/QUOTE]

Where have I ever stated this? Who is strawmanning whom?

[QUOTE]Moderate Muslims are a minority branch that doesn't follow the mainstream. Not the other way around. Stop denying reality.[/QUOTE]

I'll take your word for it, then.

Are you confusing me for another poster? You're bringing up a lot of things I've never said in this thread or any other.

[wauterboi]

I think the more that we cause collateral damage and treat [I]all[/I] Muslims as outsiders, the more likely that we will see more of the people shown in this video. The more we provide collateral damage and get riled up with fear, the more people will respond unkindly and try to combat what they perceive as hatred.

In other words, two hands are being extended out - one from the western world, and one from the extremist Muslims. If the western world takes the hand back, I think many Muslims will find retreat to the people who promise to empower them and hold their values.

The worry that I have is that so many people are focused on criticizing Islam with efforts of exclusion. People are criticizing Islam to invalidate Muslims and make them the enemy. It's criticizing [I]them[/I] instead of [I]it[/I]. When people can't help but look at Muslims as the enemy, they've already failed. They've already taken their hand back. And that just empowers the opposite side of the spectrum - our true enemies.

[Araknid]

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50859537]When people say "Islam is the problem". They mean the mainstream. Muslims who support sharia are not a small sect of Islam like Westboro Baptist Church is a sect of Christianity. They are the majority (in the world). The usage of the word is correct. It wouldn't be if it was the other way around and "westernized" moderate Muslims would be the majority and the mainstream but they are not.[/QUOTE]

If that was the case then I'm sure the UK would be in way bigger trouble considering there's 2.6-3 million Muslims in the UK.

Using your
[quote]6. How do you characterize shariah?
47% A GUIDE TO THE PERSONAL PRACTICE OF ISLAM[/quote]
[quote]7. With respect to shariah, do you believe that (ROTATE):
45% IT IS UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL MUSLIM TO DEFINE SHARIAH[/quote]
[quote]9. Should Muslims in the U.S. have their own courts or tribunals in America to apply shariah law or
should they be subject to American laws and courts?
39% AMERICAN COURTS ONLY
36% BE FREE TO CHOOSE EITHER[/quote]

[quote]12. “I believe that violence against those that insult the prophet Muhammad, the Qur’an, or Islamic
faith is sometimes acceptable.”
29% TOTAL AGREE (NET)
16% STRONGLY AGREE
13% SOMEWHAT AGREE
61% TOTAL DISAGREE (NET)
14% SOMEWHAT DISAGREE
47% STRONGLY DISAGREE
10% DO NOT KNOW/CANNOT JUDGE

13. “Violence against Americans here in the United States can be justified as part of the global jihad.”
25% TOTAL AGREE (NET)
13% STRONGLY AGREE
12% SOMEWHAT AGREE
64% TOTAL DISAGREE (NET)
9% SOMEWHAT DISAGREE
55% STRONGLY DISAGREE
11% DO NOT KNOW/CANNOT JUDGE[/quote]
[quote]20. Based on your understanding of Islam, which of the following best describes the beliefs of the
Islamic State?
43% THEIR BELIEFS ARE UN-ISLAMIC
29% THEIR BELIEFS ARE ISLAMIC, BUT AN INCORRECT INTERPRETATION OF
THE FAITH
9% THEIR BELIEFS ARE CORRECT AND CONSISTENT WITH SHARIAH
14% DO NOT KNOW/NOT SURE
4% NO ANSWER

22. Based on your understanding of Islam, which of the following best describes the beliefs of al
Queda?
49% THEIR BELIEFS ARE UN-ISLAMIC
25% THEIR BELIEFS ARE ISLAMIC, BUT AN INCORRECT INTERPRETATION OF
THE FAITH
8% THEIR BELIEFS ARE CORRECT AND CONSISTENT WITH SHARIAH
14% DO NOT KNOW/NOT SURE
3% NO ANSWER[/quote]

If anything, that poll proved the point of 'islamic apologists' more than anything

The UK ones had 500 people surveyed, out of 2.6-3 million muslims. That's hardly a sufficient size.
Also,
[quote]Overall, the findings depict a Muslim community becoming more radical and feeling more alienated from mainstream society, even though 91 per cent still say they feel loyal to Britain.[/quote]
Feeling more alienated because of the media making shit worse and people pushing bullshit, and yet 91% say they are loyal to Britain.

Come on lad.

[editline]10th August 2016[/editline]

Like for fucks sake, my sister, who converted to Islam, and her husband are scared for their children's future because of idiots like you spreading misinformation, making shit worse and worse.
Whenever there is a terrorist attack she is scared to walk outside because she fears that she will be targeted because she wears a hijab.

[editline]10th August 2016[/editline]

Also it should be stated that Sharia Law doesn't completely replace whatever country its in. The countries law must still be followed
One Hadith
[quote]Sayyiduna Abd Allah ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “It is necessary upon a Muslim to listen to and obey the ruler, as long as one is not ordered to carry out a sin. If he is commanded to commit a sin, then there is no adherence and obedience.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 2796 & Sunan Tirmidhi)[/quote]
So if someone wants to follow Sharia law in the UK they still have to follow UK laws, just without committing any sins.

[wauterboi]

[QUOTE=wauterboi;50859881]I think the more that we cause collateral damage and treat [I]all[/I] Muslims as outsiders, the more likely that we will see more of the people shown in this video. The more we provide collateral damage and get riled up with fear, the more people will respond unkindly and try to combat what they perceive as hatred.

In other words, two hands are being extended out - one from the western world, and one from the extremist Muslims. If the western world takes the hand back, I think many Muslims will find retreat to the people who promise to empower them and hold their values.

The worry that I have is that so many people are focused on criticizing Islam with efforts of exclusion. People are criticizing Islam to invalidate Muslims and make them the enemy. It's criticizing [I]them[/I] instead of [I]it[/I]. When people can't help but look at Muslims as the enemy, they've already failed. They've already taken their hand back. And that just empowers the opposite side of the spectrum - our true enemies.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I should also say that this is pretty much applicable to pretty much any group of people. Treat the moderates of any group with respect and they'll stray farther from the core or even switch to your point of view.

[SKS]

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50859608]Are you sure? I live among Muslims and this is not what they do. They operate like Christians, regarding some sections obsolete, some sections allegoric, some sections factual. They interpret.[/QUOTE]

Just saying, "true" Islam views the scriptures that way- whether that is what people practice or not.

Whether many actually follow "true" Islam is an entirely separate matter.

[wauterboi]

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50860140]I see a CSP poll again, do I need to post this once more Silly Sil?

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Security_Policy[/url]

[editline]10th August 2016[/editline]

What is more is that criticizing Islam serves nothing except antagonizing Muslims. It literally is pure negative. It is not the root cause of the problems, it is not a "fixable" factor unless you consider outlawing Islam which is ludicrous.

It literally is pure harmful and serves no purpose.[/QUOTE]
I don't think that criticism is harmful. I think if you love anything or anyone enough, you'll criticize them, because it shows you care that you want them to be better and you want the problems to halt. And on top of that, I think that criticism of religion has helped my friends see a different perspective on how they could possibly be harming themselves with religion. I know friends that hated themselves for not fitting into their Mormon communities, or stigmatized themselves for masturbation, or breaking their back following religion to compensate for something else, i.e. guilt or whatever. When things aren't able to be criticized, there just might be a problem. I think Islam should be criticized, but with fairness and without hate. Muslims should be criticized, but with specificity and without generalization. "These Muslims" is different than saying just "Muslims", and using names is better than referring to everyone. That's the problem that most people have when regarding pretty much criticism with everything. It's not [I]all[/I] Republicans that are bad. It's not [I]all[/I] feminists that are bad. It's not [I]all[/I] deviantArt users that are bad. It's not [I]all[/I] tumblr users that are bad.

The problem is when things get so simplified that innocent people get caught in the crossfire, and an entire ideology ends up being cast into the flames.

[Thlis]

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50860140]
What is more is that criticizing Islam serves nothing except antagonizing Muslims. It literally is pure negative. It is not the root cause of the problems, it is not a "fixable" factor unless you consider outlawing Islam which is ludicrous.

It literally is pure harmful and serves no purpose.[/QUOTE]

Oh please, there is nothing that should be protected from criticism.

If criticizing their ideological treatment of apostates, LGBT, and Women "antagonizes" some of these Muslims then good.

I'd wager you wouldn't give a damn about other religions being critiqued for their tennants.

[Zyler]

[QUOTE=Thlis;50862599]Oh please, there is nothing that should be protected from criticism.

If criticizing their ideological treatment of apostates, LGBT, and Women "antagonizes" some of these Muslims then good.

I'd wager you wouldn't give a damn about other religions being critiqued for their tennants.[/QUOTE]

There's a difference between criticising the idea and calling all of it's adherents horrible people and terrorists.

For example, I often criticize Christianity but I wouldn't call Christians horrible people or try to get them deported. So you're both right and wrong, I wouldn't give a damn about other religions being critiqued for their tennants [B]BUT[/B] that isn't what I'm complain about when it comes to people calling all Muslims terrorists or claiming that all Muslims are ideological extremists (because it isn't true).

If you want to criticize the ideas and beliefs of Islam then go ahead and I'll join you, if you want to disrespect people and call them terrorists and horrible people because they are Muslim then I'll disagree with you.

[B]There's more nuance involved in this conversation then either you hate Muslims or you're a dirty Islam lover who supports every core tennant and belief they espouse.[/B]

Does that make sense?

[Silly Sil]

[QUOTE=Zyler;50859801]I asked him the question and he responded to it:
That's not a strawman, that's literally what happened.[/QUOTE]
This is what happened.
[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50858902][QUOTE=Zyler;50858501][QUOTE=dimitrik129;50858341]A lot of my good friends are Muslim. They do not follow all of the teachings stated in all the books like the Quran. I know they are not bad people.
But you are missing my point. The reason there is not a consensus on the ideas that build Islam is simple. [B]Prominent religious leaders and organizations[/B] that represent Islam refuse to address the problems with their religion and advocate for outdated, and barbaric practices.[/QUOTE]Which organizations? What exactly are they proposing and how many people follow them?[/QUOTE]
links[/QUOTE]
When he posted those links he was answering your question about prominent organizations not how "all" Muslims follow the same exact thing. He never said "all". You are lying.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50859801]I responded to your question by saying that there is no official stance of Christianity, just as there is no official stance of Islam that states what dimitrik was proposing. Dimitrik was the one proposing that there was a consensus amongst Muslims, my point what that there was not.
I specifically stated this outright in my first post here:
[quote]Individual Christians still have to ignore the parts of the bible that are barbaric. There are many sects of Christianity that do follow those teachings and are detrimental to society, especially when it comes to the treatment of women and LGBT people.[/quote]
I stated that there's no proof either way. Why are you making assumptions without evidence? Shouldn't the burden of proof be on the person accusing a large number of people of holding a singular belief without any evidence?[/QUOTE]
There's a consensus among Christians not to follow old testament. Both by their prominent religious leaders and each other. They don't have to come to these conclusions on their own. It's not comparable. Christianity moved on from old testament. Islam as a whole did not move away from the bad shit that's in the Quran. Westernized Muslims did. But like I keep telling you they are not the mainstream.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50859801]I was not asking you if you wanted to live under a dictatorship. I was asking you why you were assuming people who were fleeing from a dictatorial regime supported the beliefs of said regime.[/QUOTE]
I don't know why it's about me I guess you misread something? The point was, I asked you about support for sharia and you are equating it into support for dictatorship and since they are fleeing they must hate their dictatorship and it's somehow equivalent of hate for sharia.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50859801]If you don't know why they are leaving, why are you so adamant that they believe what you think they believe? You're stating you don't know what they believe but you're also stating that you know what their exact beliefs are when it comes to religion.[/QUOTE]
Projection much? You're the one telling me they are fleeing because they hate sharia. I don't know why they are leaving. But I'm willing to say there's a number of reason and one of them might be sharia.
Regardless, it's implemented and followed in many countries. Why do you assume only a small minority wants these laws?

[QUOTE=Zyler;50859801]Most people aren't happy with their elected officials in Government, especially in the US. You can look at polls that show this. The two current presidential candidates have around the highest unfavourability ratings of candidates in history.[/QUOTE]
And that's why we can assume that what Trump does is not approved by American people? Show me a vastly negative opinion poll on Sharia from Middle-Eastern countries and I will go 180 on my stance on this.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50859801]So why bring it up?[/QUOTE]
To see if you're going to ignore any proof that goes against your narrative.
[URL="https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/dec/22/1"][QUOTE=Zyler;50859801]https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/dec/22/1[/QUOTE][/URL][QUOTE=Zyler;50859801]
There are more problems with the poll pointed out in the article.
Also, there are many interpretations of what sharia law actually means, just because someone states they believe in sharia law doesn't mean they support violent extremism or killing people. It's the same way Christians can support the ten commandments without wanting to kill gays.
Like I said earlier, Sharia law can mean different things to different people. Like the ten commandments.
That second poll even states that the majority of the interviewed Muslims stated that it should be up to the individual to choose how to interpret Sharia Law.[/QUOTE]
Okay so that's still 1 in 5 wanting to follow Sharia (without forcing it on others). What do you think the number is in the Middle East? Why do you think it's the same or less?
[QUOTE=Zyler;50859801]Where have I ever stated this? Who is strawmanning whom? [/QUOTE]
That was a sarcastic joke. Your narrative is that Muslims in Middle East who support the actual Sharia are a small minority. And if polls show otherwise they are skewed like that because they are afraid to speak up against government or the poll was falsified by the government yes? Hence I posted that. I'll try not to do it again.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50859801]I'll take your word for it, then.[/QUOTE]
No you will take nobody's word for it. Millions of Middle-Eastern Muslims could be telling you they support the actual Sharia or at least large portions of it and you would dismiss it. The narrative you have created is infalsifiable to you. You have created a situation in your head where it's impossible to prove you wrong. There's no proof you would believe.

[editline]11th August 2016[/editline]

[QUOTE=Araknid;50859883]If that was the case then I'm sure the UK would be in way bigger trouble considering there's 2.6-3 million Muslims in the UK.

Using your
If anything, that poll proved the point of 'islamic apologists' more than anything[/QUOTE]
Yes these numbers are great. I show them to people who actually say "all Muslims this or that".
[QUOTE=Araknid;50859883]Also it should be stated that Sharia Law doesn't completely replace whatever country its in. The countries law must still be followed
One Hadith

So if someone wants to follow Sharia law in the UK they still have to follow UK laws, just without committing any sins.[/QUOTE]
You missed the point. I wasn't posting these stats to show how bad UK Muslims are. I did it only to show how there's a visible minority of them supporting Sharia, even if only on themselves. And how this number is probably higher in Middle-East not lower.
[QUOTE=Araknid;50859883]Feeling more alienated because of the media making shit worse and people pushing bullshit, and yet 91% say they are loyal to Britain.

Come on lad.

Like for fucks sake, my sister, who converted to Islam, and her husband are scared for their children's future because of idiots like you spreading misinformation, making shit worse and worse.
Whenever there is a terrorist attack she is scared to walk outside because she fears that she will be targeted because she wears a hijab.[/QUOTE]
Well thanks for ignoring the part where I said this.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50859537]That said I realize that, while technically correct, saying "Islam is to blame" might be disheartening to moderate Muslims, since there is no actual distinction of them. And it might make them feel unwanted in the community and blamed for actions of other Muslims who they don't really associate themselves with.[/QUOTE]
Meaning we should be making the distinction.

Why does it have to be that you either have to believe that only a small minority of Muslims around the world are ultra-conservative for our standards or that they ALL are fundamentalists.

How about admitting that Muslims in Middle-East (which is the majority of Muslims worldwide) are pretty backwards but at the same time defending westernized Muslims and not blaming them for actions of others?

[editline]11th August 2016[/editline]

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50860140]I see a CSP poll again, do I need to post this once more Silly Sil?

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Security_Policy[/URL][/QUOTE]
First. I'm terribly sorry for not reading all your posts master. You want me to call you a cab to bring you back from that mountain from which you are looking at me down on?
Second. I'll stop showing this hateful, made up poll to people who actually say "all Muslims this or that" to prove them wrong.

[editline]11th August 2016[/editline]

[QUOTE=Radical_ed;50861615]Just saying, "true" Islam views the scriptures that way- whether that is what people practice or not.

Whether many actually follow "true" Islam is an entirely separate matter.[/QUOTE]
Worst distinction you could think of. Did that occur to you that you are saying what they guys in the OP are saying?

[SundayRoast]

To everyone getting their testicles in a twist after hearing "the religion of peace :)" :
Islam has many peaceful and moderate branches, but I think that we could all agree on that Sunni Wahhabism is far from a religion of piece.

[LiquidNazgul]

[QUOTE=Sunday_Roast;50865816]To everyone getting their testicles in a twist after hearing "the religion of peace :)" :
Islam has many peaceful and moderate branches, but I think that we could all agree on that Sunni Wahhabism is far from a religion of piece.[/QUOTE]

My testicles get tied in...shut the fuck up that's a really awful analogy, thanks for making my balls feel weird :v:

I get [I]somewhat annoyed[/I] when people say "islam religion of peace! :)" in a passive-aggressive way instead of anything meaningful. Like, they can't form any original thoughts of their own, so they just echo something that's been said a million times before.

Like fuck, people can criticize Islam all they want, but if all someone's gonna say is "religion of peace!!!" or "you're just an islamaphobe!" and set up strawmen to knock down without having genuine discussions, then bugger off. But then, this is the Internet, so I don't know what I'm expecting.

[Zyler]

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50865735]This is what happened.

When he posted those links he was answering your question about prominent organizations not how "all" Muslims follow the same exact thing. He never said "all". You are lying.[/QUOTE]

My first post was asking him for evidence that there is a consensus amongst Muslims that they believe what he claims they believe. That's what the conversation was and still is about. You're ignoring my first post in the thread and his response to that post.

You posted polls to apparently demonstrate that the majority of Muslims in english speaking countries believe in a version of Sharia Law you proposed that they believe. What was that supposed to demonstrate if not that there is a consensus?

Are you backpedaling now and saying that there is not a consensus amongst Muslims that they believe what you and Dimitrik say they believe?

What is your actual main argument? Can you clearly summarize what you are arguing?

[QUOTE]There's a consensus among Christians not to follow old testament. Both by their prominent religious leaders and each other. They don't have to come to these conclusions on their own. It's not comparable. Christianity moved on from old testament. Islam as a whole did not move away from the bad shit that's in the Quran. Westernized Muslims did. But like I keep telling you they are not the mainstream.[/QUOTE]

How does this prove that there is a consensus amongst Muslims to support terrorism or whatever else you are arguing they believe?

[QUOTE]I don't know why it's about me I guess you misread something? The point was, I asked you about support for sharia and you are equating it into support for dictatorship and since they are fleeing they must hate their dictatorship and it's somehow equivalent of hate for sharia.[/QUOTE]

Sharia means different things to different people. I've stated this three or four times now. There are numerous interpretations of Sharia Law that don't necessitate violence or wrongful behavour of any sort. Just like how you can support the ten commandments without wanting to murder all the gays.

[QUOTE]Projection much? You're the one telling me they are fleeing because they hate sharia. I don't know why they are leaving. But I'm willing to say there's a number of reason and one of them might be sharia.
Regardless, it's implemented and followed in many countries. Why do you assume only a small minority wants these laws? [/QUOTE]

Your telling me you don't know why they're leaving. If you don't know something, why are you arguing in support of it? That doesn't make any sense? Do you understand why not knowing something and yet arguing that it's true doesn't make any sense?

I don't see how that is projecting. You're going to need to explain how it is you come to these random conclusions. How does not understanding your argument mean I am projecting?

[QUOTE]And that's why we can assume that what Trump does is not approved by American people? Show me a vastly negative opinion poll on Sharia from Middle-Eastern countries and I will go 180 on my stance on this.[/QUOTE]

We know that a large number of people don't support the actions of Middle-Eastern governments because they are fleeing the country. Sharia law means different things to different people so there isn't one universal opinion of it.

That's like doing a poll on whether Christians support the ten commandments, and then assuming that all Christians hate gay people because they said yes.

[QUOTE]To see if you're going to ignore any proof that goes against your narrative.

Okay so that's still 1 in 5 wanting to follow Sharia (without forcing it on others). What do you think the number is in the Middle East? Why do you think it's the same or less?[/QUOTE]

I assume its either the same or more? Why does it matter? Why is it a problem if someone wants to practice their own religion without forcing it on somebody else?

[QUOTE]That was a sarcastic joke. Your narrative is that Muslims in Middle East [B]who support the actual Sharia[/B] are a small minority. And if polls show otherwise they are skewed like that because they are afraid to speak up against government or the poll was falsified by the government yes? Hence I posted that. I'll try not to do it again.[/QUOTE]

What is this 'actual' Sharia? Can you prove it exists? This is what I meant when I argued that you need to prove there is a consensus. So I wasn't lying when I said that the consensus issue was the argument you and Dimitrik were making.

[QUOTE]No you will take nobody's word for it. Millions of Middle-Eastern Muslims could be telling you they support the [B]actual Sharia[/B] or at least large portions of it and you would dismiss it. The narrative you have created is infalsifiable to you. You have created a situation in your head where it's impossible to prove you wrong. There's no proof you would believe.[/QUOTE]

Again, what is this 'actual Sharia'? Can you prove it exists? Your argument is unfalsifiable because you've made up a false truism that all Muslims must support this idea of an 'actual Sharia' that you can neither prove nor disprove because it isn't based on fact as far as I can see.

[editline]11th August 2016[/editline]

[QUOTE]Yes these numbers are great. I show them to people who actually say "all Muslims this or that".

You missed the point. I wasn't posting these stats to show how bad UK Muslims are. I did it only to show how there's a visible minority of them supporting Sharia, even if only on themselves. And how this number is probably higher in Middle-East not lower.[/QUOTE]

Did you read the post the Araknid was making? He wasn't claiming you were trying to prove how bad UK Muslims were, he was pointing out your misunderstanding of what Sharia Law is. He was stating that under Sharia Law, muslims still have to follow the laws of the country they live in regardless of whether they live in the UK or elsewhere.

[QUOTE]Well thanks for ignoring the part where I said this.[/QUOTE]

Your methodology is still wrong and could contribute the alienation that Araknid was describing.

[QUOTE]Meaning we should be making the distinction.

Why does it have to be that you either have to believe that only a small minority of Muslims around the world are ultra-conservative for our standards or that they ALL are fundamentalists.[/QUOTE]

It doesn't, you're generalizing a large number of conservative Muslims as being violent fundamentalists. If anything, you're the one creating a false dichotomy here by claiming that any prospective muslim can only be a moderate or a violent extremist.

[QUOTE]How about admitting that Muslims in Middle-East (which is the majority of Muslims worldwide) are pretty backwards but at the same time defending westernized Muslims and not blaming them for actions of others?[/QUOTE]

There's a difference between criticising somebody's culture (which I would be all to happy to join you with) and incorrectly labeling someone as a terrorist or a violent extremist when they are not one.

[QUOTE]First. I'm terribly sorry for not reading all your posts master. You want me to call you a cab to bring you back from that mountain from which you are looking at me down on?
Second. I'll stop showing this hateful, made up poll to people who actually say "all Muslims this or that" to prove them wrong.[/QUOTE]

The polls you posted were all debunked or proven to not mean what you thought they mean. Not only that, but you misinterpreted people's posts that were explaining the intricacies of Sharia Law as "all Muslims this or that" while ironically claiming that there is an absolute consensus among Muslims that there is only one interpretation of Sharia Law.

I don't think Trebgarta views themself as better than you, I think they might just be a little bit frustrated that you seem to be ignoring and misreading people's posts. Which I feel is reasonable given the circumstances.

[QUOTE] Worst distinction you could think of. Did that occur to you that you are saying what they guys in the OP are saying?[/QUOTE]

The religion is made up, it's fake. There is no 'true' Islam because Islam is fake and God isn't real.

[Silly Sil]

[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]My first post was asking him for evidence that there is a consensus amongst Muslims that they believe what he claims they believe. That's what the conversation was and still is about. You're ignoring my first post in the thread and his response to that post. [/QUOTE]
That's the same post! But it's not the line of argument he replied to with links. You are lying. He never made the claim or tried to prove "there's a consensus among Muslims".
[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]You posted polls to apparently demonstrate that the majority of Muslims in english speaking countries believe in a version of Sharia Law you proposed that they believe. What was that supposed to demonstrate if not that there is a consensus?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]How does this prove that there is a consensus amongst Muslims to support terrorism or whatever else you are arguing they believe?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]What is this 'actual' Sharia? Can you prove it exists? This is what I meant when I argued that you need to prove there is a consensus. So I wasn't lying when I said that the consensus issue was the argument you and Dimitrik were making.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]Not only that, but you misinterpreted people's posts that were explaining the intricacies of Sharia Law as "all Muslims this or that" while ironically claiming that there is an absolute consensus among Muslims that there is only one interpretation of Sharia Law. [/QUOTE]
Nobody is even making this argument. It's all in your head. You are arguing imaginary people.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]Are you backpedaling now and saying that there is not a consensus amongst Muslims that they believe what you and Dimitrik say they believe?[/QUOTE]
How can I backpedal from an argument [B]THAT I'VE NEVER MADE??!![/B]
[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]Sharia means different things to different people. I've stated this three or four times now. There are numerous interpretations of Sharia Law that don't necessitate violence or wrongful behavour of any sort. Just like how you can support the ten commandments without wanting to murder all the gays. [/QUOTE]
This has nothing to do with what I said. You equated support for sharia with support for dictatorship. No amount of confabulation is going to make that go away.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]Your telling me you don't know why they're leaving. If you don't know something, why are you arguing in support of it? That doesn't make any sense? Do you understand why not knowing something and yet arguing that it's true doesn't make any sense?

I don't see how that is projecting. You're going to need to explain how it is you come to these random conclusions. How does not understanding your argument mean I am projecting?[/QUOTE]
YOU are the one who said he knows why they are leaving.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]We know that a large number of people don't support the actions of Middle-Eastern governments because they are fleeing the country. Sharia law means different things to different people so there isn't one universal opinion of it.

That's like doing a poll on whether Christians support the ten commandments, and then assuming that all Christians hate gay people because they said yes.[/QUOTE]
Okay I'll rephrase what I said. You show me a poll where majority of Middle-Eastern Muslims object to penalties like cutting hand off for theft, death for adultery and apostasy, lashing for pre-marital sex, having 4 wives, allowance to beat your wives, etc. and I will change my stance on this.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]I assume its either the same or more? Why does it matter? Why is it a problem if someone wants to practice their own religion without forcing it on somebody else?[/QUOTE]
Who said it's a problem?

[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]Again, what is this 'actual Sharia'? Can you prove it exists? [/QUOTE]
Actual Sharia as in [B]religious LAW implemented and followed through by government[/B] not personal restrictions. Not some stupid consensus again either.
You want proof that there are countries that punish you according to Sharia?
[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]Your argument is unfalsifiable because you've made up a false truism that all Muslims must support this idea of an 'actual Sharia' that you can neither prove nor disprove because it isn't based on fact as far as I can see.[/QUOTE]
Where did I make this claim? What the fuck are you talking about? What is wrong with you? Why are you making such vile crap about me? And I even told you in my last post what's going to change my mind on it. You're the one with unfalsifiable truism.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]Did you read the post the Araknid was making? He wasn't claiming you were trying to prove how bad UK Muslims were, he was pointing out your misunderstanding of what Sharia Law is. He was stating that under Sharia Law, muslims still have to follow the laws of the country they live in regardless of whether they live in the UK or elsewhere.[/QUOTE]
But I'm aware of that? You know since I mentioned it numerous times in my posts? So I don't know what you're talking about.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]Your methodology is still wrong and could contribute the alienation that Araknid was describing.[/QUOTE]
How would that work? When I'm gonna say "most Muslims in the Middle-East support very strict religious laws and customs" that's somehow alienating to Muslims in Europe? What?
[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]It doesn't, you're generalizing a large number of conservative Muslims as being violent fundamentalists. If anything, you're the one creating a false dichotomy here by claiming that any prospective muslim can only be a moderate or a violent extremist.[/QUOTE]
Where am I making this dichotomy? That's [B]YOUR [/B]false dichotomy. You are the one who thinks that majority of Muslims across the world are super moderate and the other ones who are fundamentalists are a minority and that minority happens to be in power in Middle-East and is imposing these unwanted strict laws on moderate Muslims who are fleeing from there.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]There's a difference between criticising somebody's culture (which I would be all to happy to join you with) and incorrectly labeling someone as a terrorist or a violent extremist when they are not one.[/QUOTE]
Good thing nobody is doing that then.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]The polls you posted were all debunked or proven to not mean what you thought they mean. [/QUOTE]
Proven not to mean what YOU think I mean. Because I have never posted them to say there's a consensus. Because I've never made that claim.

[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]I don't think Trebgarta views themself as better than you, I think they might just be a little bit frustrated that you seem to be ignoring and misreading people's posts. Which I feel is reasonable given the circumstances. [/QUOTE]
That's fucking rich coming from someone who's been claiming time after time that I'm trying to prove some vile, islamophobic beliefs.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]The religion is made up, it's fake. There is no 'true' Islam because Islam is fake and God isn't real.[/QUOTE]
What are you even trying to argue here? Or you just saw me say something and you had to reply somehow even though it's aimed at a completely different person making a completely different argument?
[QUOTE=Zyler;50870486]What is your actual main argument? Can you clearly summarize what you are arguing? [/QUOTE]
Well it's certainly not that [B]ALL MUSLIMS HAVE A CONSENSUS TO BE TERRORISTS[/B] like you are claiming that it's my main argument.

My argument is: moderate Muslims while being majority in western world are actually a minority among Muslims worldwide. As shown by implementation of religious laws and customs and support for them in the Middle-East. And then there's another minority, the extremists who are killing infidels.

I swear if you're going to claim that I'm trying to prove there's a consensus among all Muslims again...

[Zyler]

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50871701]That's the same post! But it's not the line of argument he replied to with links. You are lying. He never made the claim or tried to prove "there's a consensus among Muslims".[/QUOTE]

Are you claiming I'm lying, as in I'm trying to deceive you? At the very worst I'm misinterpreting your posts, but when I asked Dimitrik a question it stands to reason that my argument from that point on is based around that question. In fact I'm telling you, right now, that my every single post I've made has been based around that question.

[B]Just please, I'm begging you, stop saying I am lying when I say I've stated a question when I've stated the same question over and over again throughout this thread.[/B]

I'm just going to jump to this bit because everything else in your post is a repetition of what you've stated previously

[QUOTE]My argument is: moderate Muslims while being majority in western world are actually a minority among Muslims worldwide. As shown by implementation of religious laws and customs and support for them in the Middle-East. And then there's another minority, the extremists who are killing infidels.
[/QUOTE]

[B]Okay, you're not understanding what I'm saying. You don't understand what I've been arguing this entire time. I'm going to restate this argument again, it's the same argument I've been making since my first post in this thread. The argument that I am making now that has never changed and you are claiming is a lie because I apparently haven't made this argument, even though I have, repeatedly, in every single post I've made in this thread.[/B]

[B]Here it is, here is the sole single argument I have ever made in this thread:
[/B]

[B]-------------------------------READ THIS------------------------------------------[/B]

You are claiming that a large number of people, that large number of people being the majority of muslims worldwide, are proponents of a particular set of policies that you classify as 'not moderate' and put forward by religious governments. What is your evidence that the majority of muslims hold this belief? What is your proof that all of these people hold the same belief when there are numerous interpretations of the religious text involved? A collection of people all holding the same belief is a consensus.

Do you understand that your belief that the majority of muslims hold the particular viewpoint you claim they do requires that the majority of muslims hold the same viewpoint? Do you understand that a bunch of people needing to have the same viewpoint means that there is a consensus? A consensus is literally another word for "a bunch of people having the same viewpoint". You are claiming that the majority of muslims share a viewpoint of supporting the policies of religious governments, that's what a consensus is.

Do you understand what I am saying? Do you understand that I am not lying? Do you understand why I am bringing up the topic of a consensus and why I think that you need to prove that there is a consensus amongst the people you claim hold a shared belief in one singular interpretation of Sharia Law in order to justify your claim?

[B]Your claim is: "The majority of muslims hold a particular view of Sharia Law"

"The majority of muslims hold a particular view of Sharia Law"="the majority of muslims have beliefs of a particular view of Sharia Law"
"the majority of muslims have beliefs of a particular view of Sharia Law"="there is a consensus amongst the majority of muslims that support that belief"

[/B]Let's look at the evidence you've proposed so far:
1)A set of studies you presented, which have been debunked due to not proving what you think they proved.
2)A claim that the policies of religious governments represent the views of the majority of muslims worldwide, which is debunked by the fact that the majority of muslims are trying to get away from those specific countries (Iraq, Syria) and many muslims are killed under those regimes.

That's it.

You have presented two pieces of evidence to support your claim. Both of those pieces of evidence have been disproved. Do you understand that you need evidence to support your claim?

Your claim is that he majority of muslims hold a particular view of Sharia Law, you have presented evidence to support that claim and that evidence has been disproven.

[B][B]---------------------------------------------------------^READ THIS^-------------------------------------------------------[/B][/B]

Do you understand that train of logic? Is there something I need to explain better?

I can understand why this might be confusing. There's essentially four categories of muslims in this conversation: the moderate muslims you're envisioning that do not support any kind of Sharia Law, the violent extremist terrorists who support using Sharia Law to justify murdering people, the fundamentalist extremists who are not violent but believe in Sharia Law (which you imagine the majority of muslims to be), and the various muslims who each have their own varying interpretations of Sharia Law which are neither violent nor fundamentalist extremists.

Tell me, yes or no. Do you understand what I am saying? If you do not understand what I am saying, can you explain to me what you don't understand instead of accusing me of lying?

[B]Do not respond to every paragraph in this post. Do not quote this post. Just reply in one sentence, do you understand what I am saying, yes or no?[/B]

[Silly Sil]

Yes, I understand what you're saying and you are still, to an extend, misrepresenting my position.

Am I allowed to say anything else? Well, thanks.
I'm not saying there's a consensus.
I'm not saying there's a particular viewpoint.
I'm not saying the hold the same exact belief.
And you were presenting my argument as if I was saying that ALL MUSLIMS HAVE CONSENSUS, that would include the Muslims in the west and I was talking about Middle-Eastern Muslims holding similar (not identical) views about religious laws. And that's why I called you a liar. And now you're backpedaling from ALL to MAJORITY.

Here I'm going to make it a little more clear to you: I'm saying beliefs about implementation of Sharia by the government in the Middle-East may vary, but it's mostly not "moderate". Not extremist either mind you. But most of them are going to support (to different extend) implementation of religious laws. See how there's no [B]particular [/B]viewpoint? Are you going to stop misrepresenting my position now so I don't have to call you a liar again?

Now my evidence of this wasn't disproven. It wasn't even addressed. It was disregarded offhand. No one even mentioned it.
What do you think you have disproven? That majority of Muslims in the west support Sharia? Well good thing I've never tried to prove it.

And what kind of evidence would convince you? Is it even a conceivable situation for you? Or is your claim that the majority of Muslims in the Middle-East are moderates infalsifiable?

Now mister "you need proof".
Show me proof that majority of Muslims in the Middle-East are moderate and don't support Sharia. Because you are claiming this.
And show me proof that "majority" of Muslims from the Middle-East are trying to escape. You have claimed this too.

[Kentz]

if tolerance is a virtue, you cannot tolerate intolerance

[MaximLaHaxim]

[QUOTE=Kentz;50874197]if tolerance is a virtue, you cannot tolerate intolerance[/QUOTE]

Depends what that intolerance is.

If it's [i]violent[/i] intolerance or intolerance that [i]attempts[/i] to cause violence, then yes, you have every right to not tolerate it.

But if it's just as simple as people being racist/having people who support a far-right government, then you should tolerate it.

[soulharvester]

[QUOTE=Kentz;50874197]if tolerance is a virtue, you cannot tolerate intolerance[/QUOTE]

The problem with this argument is that Islam is the least tolerant ideology followed by literally more than a billion people. And you're telling people to tolerate it, thus the statement is self-defeating.

[wauterboi]

[QUOTE=soulharvester;50874862]The problem with this argument is that Islam is the least tolerant ideology followed by literally more than a billion people. And you're telling people to tolerate it, thus the statement is self-defeating.[/QUOTE]
It's convenient to forget about individuality in these contexts. I can point to fine Muslims and people will say, "oh, not those ones" or "oh, those people aren't real Muslims". People have an idea or what it means to be Muslim and they don't want that image invalidated.

I would totally stand next to people when criticizing a specific sect of Muslims with certain issues and an even smaller sect or those Muslims for terrorism, but the problem is that they get lumped all together in one blob that makes the whole idea incorrect. Some Muslims do certain things wrong. Others do other things wrong. It's not one blob with tons of consistent agreements. There are polls to show this.

Criticism of Islam really needs to be more specific in order to be productive, and I think people want to hate more than they want to help, which prevents productivity.

[Zyler]

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50872405]Yes, I understand what you're saying and you are still, to an extend, misrepresenting my position.

Am I allowed to say anything else? Well, thanks.
I'm not saying there's a consensus.
I'm not saying there's a particular viewpoint.
I'm not saying the hold the same exact belief.
And you were presenting my argument as if I was saying that ALL MUSLIMS HAVE CONSENSUS, that would include the Muslims in the west and I was talking about Middle-Eastern Muslims holding similar (not identical) views about religious laws. And that's why I called you a liar. And now you're backpedaling from ALL to MAJORITY.

Here I'm going to make it a little more clear to you: I'm saying beliefs about implementation of Sharia by the government in the Middle-East may vary, but it's mostly not "moderate". Not extremist either mind you. But most of them are going to support (to different extend) implementation of religious laws. See how there's no [B]particular [/B]viewpoint? Are you going to stop misrepresenting my position now so I don't have to call you a liar again?

Now my evidence of this wasn't disproven. It wasn't even addressed. It was disregarded offhand. No one even mentioned it.
What do you think you have disproven? That majority of Muslims in the west support Sharia? Well good thing I've never tried to prove it.

And what kind of evidence would convince you? Is it even a conceivable situation for you? Or is your claim that the majority of Muslims in the Middle-East are moderates infalsifiable?

Now mister "you need proof".
Show me proof that majority of Muslims in the Middle-East are moderate and don't support Sharia. Because you are claiming this.
And show me proof that "majority" of Muslims from the Middle-East are trying to escape. You have claimed this too.[/QUOTE]

I literally have not changed my argument from the moment I first posted here.

[QUOTE]
And what kind of evidence would convince you? Is it even a conceivable situation for you? Or is your claim that the majority of Muslims in the Middle-East are moderates infalsifiable?
[/QUOTE]

No, you posted a bunch of polls and a bit of reasoning that the majority of religious people must follow a set of governments that most of them are actually trying to get away from. The polls were debunked because they were either badly constructed or didn't prove what you thought they proved. This is what happened, go back and read the rest of the thread to confirm this if you must.

[QUOTE]And you were presenting my argument as if I was saying that ALL MUSLIMS HAVE CONSENSUS, that would include the Muslims in the west and I was talking about Middle-Eastern Muslims holding similar (not identical) views about religious laws. And that's why I called you a liar. And now you're backpedaling from ALL to MAJORITY.[/QUOTE]

I was presenting my argument that [B]ALL of the people you were generalising (not all muslims in the world)[/B] must have a consensus by definition. I probably was not clear enough in my argument, but the argument I was making hasn't changed and seriously I [B]know my own thoughts better than you do, I would know if my argument changed[/B].

Regardless, the above argument is what I am making right now, what you think I was arguing before is irrelevant as to whether the claim you have made is true or not. Even if I was lying, which I wasn't, it wouldn't make your claim automatically true.

[B]I'm sorry I didn't word my argument better.[/B]

[QUOTE]Now mister "you need proof".
Show me proof that majority of Muslims in the Middle-East are moderate and don't support Sharia. Because you are claiming this.
And show me proof that "majority" of Muslims from the Middle-East are trying to escape. You have claimed this too.[/QUOTE]

It doesn't work that way, you presented the claim that the majority of muslims in the world and ALL of the muslims that you perceive as fundamentalists hold fundamentalist beliefs, the burden of evidence is on the individual making the claim. I've asked for ANY evidence that supports your claim and if you don't have it, then your claim is fundamentally and scientifically unfalsifiable.

This is how scientific falsfiability works. It's like someone asking me to prove that big foot DOESN'T exist. If someone claims that Bigfoot exists, they need to provide evidence to support that claim [B]not the other way around[/B]. They don't get to ask me to prove Bigfoot DOESN'T exist and then claim that he must exist if I cannot. [B]I literally cannot prove something doesn't exist if it doesn't exist because the only evidence of something not existing is a lack of evidence to support its existence (which means if you cannot provide evidence to support your claim, then it defaults to being 'not true'), absence of evidence is not evidence of absence (it's absence of evidence, hence being scientifically incorrect and unfalsifiable, you really need to think about this one).[/B] No matter what I say, you will continue to believe that the majority of Muslims are fundamentalist extremists because any evidence or reasoning I present to the contrary will be dismissed because it doesn't and cannot prove that every single muslim in the world thinks a certain way while you need no evidence at all to support your beliefs, you're argument is completely scientifically unfalsfiable.

If you can provide ANY evidence, such as polls or statistics that exist within the realm of testable and provable logic (the two bits of evidence that you provided thus far have been debunked and are no longer evidence of your claim), then I can reason with you. Otherwise, you are not being scientific and simply believing whatever suits you.

[B]Why do you believe that the majority of muslims, ALL of which you argue are fundamentalist extremists, are fundamentalist extremists and hold a consensus of fundamentalist extremist views? What evidence do you have to support that claim?[/B]

If you CANNOT provide ANY evidence to support your claim, then your claim is false.

[razzums]

did the shithead who went to syria get killed yet?

[RG4ORDR]

I kinda love how the guy whose the focus of the video goes rather dead silent when talking about his father.
[quote] "Did your father like Britain?"
"Yeah, he liked it a lot, he liked it alot..."[/quote]
This dude literally just had a moment where he realized his father would be disappointed in him on so many levels.

[Silly Sil]

[QUOTE=Zyler;50876629]No, you posted a bunch of polls and a bit of reasoning that the majority of religious people must follow a set of governments that most of them are actually trying to get away from. The polls were debunked because they were either badly constructed or didn't prove what you thought they proved. This is what happened, go back and read the rest of the thread to confirm this if you must.[/QUOTE]
This is not the answer to my question. Answer this question please:
[B]What kind of evidence would convince you? Is it even a conceivable situation for you?[/B] Or is your claim that the majority of Muslims in the Middle-East are moderates infalsifiable? This is not about what I've posted earlier.
And once this question is answered I will know if it's even possible to give you evidence that you're not going to reject offhand.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50876629]I was presenting my argument that [B]ALL of the people you were generalising (not all muslims in the world)[/B] must have a consensus by definition. I probably was not clear enough in my argument, but the argument I was making hasn't changed and seriously I [B]know my own thoughts better than you do, I would know if my argument changed[/B].

Regardless, the above argument is what I am making right now, what you think I was arguing before is irrelevant as to whether the claim you have made is true or not. Even if I was lying, which I wasn't, it wouldn't make your claim automatically true.

[B]I'm sorry I didn't word my argument better.[/B][/QUOTE]
It's still not a consensus. I'm not saying they all agree on something. I'm saying there's a range of their beliefs but they are really conservative for our standards.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50876629]It doesn't work that way, you presented the claim that the majority of muslims in the world and ALL of the muslims that you perceive as fundamentalists hold fundamentalist beliefs, the burden of evidence is on the individual making the claim. I've asked for ANY evidence that supports your claim and if you don't have it, then your claim is fundamentally and scientifically unfalsifiable.

This is how scientific falsfiability works. It's like someone asking me to prove that big foot DOESN'T exist. If someone claims that Bigfoot exists, they need to provide evidence to support that claim [B]not the other way around[/B]. They don't get to ask me to prove Bigfoot DOESN'T exist and then claim that he must exist if I cannot. [B]I literally cannot prove something doesn't exist if it doesn't exist because the only evidence of something not existing is a lack of evidence to support its existence (which means if you cannot provide evidence to support your claim, then it defaults to being 'not true'), absence of evidence is not evidence of absence (it's absence of evidence, hence being scientifically incorrect and unfalsifiable, you really need to think about this one).[/B] No matter what I say, you will continue to believe that the majority of Muslims are fundamentalist extremists because any evidence or reasoning I present to the contrary will be dismissed because it doesn't and cannot prove that every single muslim in the world thinks a certain way while you need no evidence at all to support your beliefs, you're argument is completely scientifically unfalsfiable.[/QUOTE]
This entire paragraph is nonsense and just a way to weasel yourself out of holding up to your own fucking standards.
[B]I'm not asking you to prove a negative[/B], because that's impossible as you say. [B]I'm asking you to prove positive claims[/B] that you've made.

Now prove that majority of Muslims in the Middle-East are moderate and don't support Sharia. Because you are claiming this.
And show me proof that "majority" of Muslims from the Middle-East are trying to escape. You have claimed this too.

You've made these claims. Now prove them. Hold up to your own standards. The crap about bigfoot doesn't apply here because those are not negative claims. Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying that if you can't prove the opposite then that means my position is right. I'm saying uphold your own standards. If you can prove your claims I will switch my position on this and this discussion will be over in an instant. But I can already tell you won't.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50876629]If you can provide ANY evidence, such as polls or statistics that exist within the realm of testable and provable logic (the two bits of evidence that you provided thus far have been debunked and are no longer evidence of your claim), then I can reason with you. Otherwise, you are not being scientific and simply believing whatever suits you.[/QUOTE]
What the hell did you think I was trying to prove with the 2 "debunked" statistics? I keep telling you I wasn't trying to prove with them that majority of Muslims are holding a consensus.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50876629][B]Why do you believe that the majority of muslims, ALL of which you argue are fundamentalist extremists, are fundamentalist extremists and hold a consensus of fundamentalist extremist views? What evidence do you have to support that claim?[/B]
If you CANNOT provide ANY evidence to support your claim, then your claim is false.[/QUOTE]
Where the hell did I claim that majority of Muslims are extremists you [B]fucking liar[/B]?!

And holy shit you just quoted this
[quote]I'm not saying there's a consensus.
I'm not saying there's a particular viewpoint.
I'm not saying the hold the same exact belief. [/quote]
and you are talking about consensus yet again. I'm not saying there's a consensus. Get it through your skull.

You just can't go one single post without misrepresenting my argument.

[B]Now prove your positive claims and answer the first question I've asked in this post[/B] so that we can know if it's even possible for you to consider evidence contrary to your beliefs.