So Mr.Scientific, by the fact that you rated me dumb and are not replying I understand that you can't prove your own claims and that you realized there's no proof in the world that would make you question your current position?
I don't think you are as scientific as you think you are.
A religion is represented by its followers.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50899539]So Mr.Scientific, by the fact that you rated me dumb and are not replying I understand that you can't prove your own claims and that you realized there's no proof in the world that would make you question your current position?
I don't think you are as scientific as you think you are.[/QUOTE]
I stopped replying because you've basically ignored my entire argument and made up whatever shit you want to believe while constantly insulting me and everyone else who disagrees with you.
If you want people to engage with you, stop being a dick.
Or at the very least, quit the ad hominems and explain your main argument without being condescending or trying to shift the burden of proof.
I'm trying to be very clear here, because I don't think there is any way I could engage with you without you twisting my words or accusing me of lying or attempting to attack you, no matter what I type.
Basically, I'm not bowing out because you've made a convincing argument but instead because you've created such a hostile environment that no one can stand arguing with you, if that was your intention then good job you won.
It's reassuring seeing how they didn't have much of an audience, and the only people who stopped to give them any attention were muslims - they stopped to yell at them to stop giving them a bad name.
[QUOTE=Drury;50900054]It's reassuring seeing how they didn't have much of an audience, and the only people who stopped to give them any attention were muslims - they stopped to yell at them to stop giving them a bad name.[/QUOTE]
They shouldn't have to do that, but if they don't people will accuse them of not denouncing the people they have nothing to do with, hell people accuse them of that anyway.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50900032]I stopped replying because you've basically ignored my entire argument [/QUOTE]
Your only argument is "prove it" while stating the opposite and not proving our own claims.
I keep asking you WHAT proof do you want and you just won't answer for some reason.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50900032]and made up whatever shit you want to believe while constantly insulting me and everyone else who disagrees with you.[/QUOTE]
You stop misrepresenting my argument and I will stop calling you out on it. How about that?
[QUOTE=Zyler;50900032]If you want people to engage with you, stop being a dick.[/QUOTE]
And if you want to have a proper discussion stop constantly misrepresenting your opposition's position.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50900032]Or at the very least, quit the ad hominems and explain your main argument without being condescending or trying to [/QUOTE]
I have explained my argument very clearly.
[I]I'm saying beliefs about implementation of Sharia by the government in the Middle-East may vary, but it's mostly not "moderate". Not extremist either mind you. But most of them are going to support (to different extend) implementation of religious laws.[/I]
No particular viewpoint or consensus included.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50900032]shift the burden of proof.[/QUOTE]
I am not trying to shift burden of proof. I have posted this:
[I]Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying that if you can't prove the opposite then that means my position is right. I'm saying uphold your own standards.[/I]
I'm not telling you to prove me wrong. I'm not asking you to prove a negative. You have made POSITIVE claims [U]just like I did[/U]. Prove them.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50900032]I'm trying to be very clear here, because I don't think there is any way I could engage with you without you twisting my words or accusing me of lying or attempting to attack you, no matter what I type.[/QUOTE]
You stop typing words like "consensus" or "particular viewpoint" and I will stop "accusing" you. You are the one holding this conversation locked in one place.
Now for the third time:
[B]Prove your positive claims and tell me what evidence you are going to accept from me.[/B] And we can get somewhere with this.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50900095]
[B]Prove your positive claims and tell me what evidence you are going to accept from me.[/B] And we can get somewhere with this.[/QUOTE]
I'll accept any evidence or logic you use to attempt to prove your claim, there's nothing wrong with the polls and logic you used previously except for the fact that they were proven to later be false.
You are the one making a claim, the burden of proof is on you to support this claim with evidence.
I cannot disprove your claim if you don't present evidence to support it. Any true statement must have evidence to support it, if there is no evidence to support a claim than it is not true.
[QUOTE]I'm saying beliefs about implementation of Sharia by the government in the Middle-East may vary, but it's mostly not "moderate". Not extremist either mind you. But most of them are going to support (to different extend) implementation of religious laws.[/QUOTE]
You're presenting a claim that the majority of muslims have a particular set of beliefs about the implementation of Sharia. You need proof to support this claim.
Present proof to support this claim and I will attempt to refute it.
I don't know what your exact beliefs are and why you support them, as such I cannot present any evidence to the contrary of what I guess you believe without you accusing me of as you say "lying". As such, I'm not going to speculate on what you believe and what evidence you are willing to accept.
Present you claim and evidence to support your claim and I will attempt to refute it.
I can only being to imagine the amount of police resources wasted watching these nutjobs...
[QUOTE=Zyler;50900293]I'll accept any evidence or logic you use to attempt to prove your claim, there's nothing wrong with the polls and logic you used previously except for the fact that they were proven to later be false.
You are the one making a claim, the burden of proof is on you to support this claim with evidence.
I cannot disprove your claim if you don't present evidence to support it. Any true statement must have evidence to support it, if there is no evidence to support a claim than it is not true.
You're presenting a claim that the majority of muslims have a particular set of beliefs about the implementation of Sharia. You need proof to support this claim.
Present proof to support this claim and I will attempt to refute it.
I don't know what your exact beliefs are and why you support them, as such I cannot present any evidence to the contrary of what I guess you believe without you accusing me of as you say "lying". As such, I'm not going to speculate on what you believe and what evidence you are willing to accept.
Present you claim and evidence to support your claim and I will attempt to refute it.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for answering the first part of my request. I will provide evidence at the bottom of my post.
As for the second part. Like I said: I'm not requesting you to disprove my claim by using your own evidence. I'm asking you to prove your [U]own[/U] positive claims that you've made. This is not shifting the burden of proof.
If you want to follow the Bigfoot analogy. We know Muslims exist and that they have varying opinions. So in this analogy Bigfoot is already proven to exist. Now I'm saying it lives in America (majority of Middle-Eastern Muslims are more than conservative), while you are saying that I have to prove it or else it's false, but you are [B]also [/B]claiming that it lives in Asia (majority of Middle-Eastern Muslims are moderate). Now, we've both made positive claims. We both have to prove them. Me asking you to prove your claims is exactly the same as you asking me. [B]We both made positive claims. [/B]I'm still waiting for your evidence of your claims.
Now to my evidence.
I’m arguing that beliefs of majority of Middle-Eastern Muslims may vary but they are little more than conservative. Meaning not moderate but not extremists either. And I’m certainly not arguing that they agree on a particular viewpoint. I will only try to prove they are not moderate but very conservative.
Study by [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WZB_Berlin_Social_Science_Center[/URL] on 9,000 respondents among immigrants and natives in Germany, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Austria and Sweden in 2008 [URL]https://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/files/u6/koopmans_englisch_ed.pdf[/URL] Not a long read. Multiple points that I'm not going to copypaste here because it would make my post a complete mess.
From [URL]http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/apr07/START_Apr07_rpt.pdf[/URL] April 24, 2007
[quote]Most respondents express strong support for expanding the role of Islam in their societies, a view that is consistent with the goals of al Qaeda. Large majorities in most countries—an average of 71 percent (39% strongly)—agree with the goal of
requiring “strict application of Shari’a law in every Islamic country.” Pakistanis were the most enthusiastic with 79 percent agreeing. About three in four Moroccans (76%) and Egyptians (74%) also agreed. Indonesians showed the lowest support: 53 percent agreed and 40 percent disagreed.
Closely related to the goal of expanding the role of Islam is the aim "to keep Western values out of Islamic countries." This objective too, got wide support (overall average 76%). In Egypt, an overwhelming 91 percent agree (80% strongly). Nearly four out of five (78%) also agreed on this objective in Indonesia as did two out of three Pakistanis (67%) and Moroccans (64%)[/quote]
From [URL]http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf[/URL] February 25, 2009
[quote]“to require a strict application of Shari’a law in every Islamic country.” In Egypt 81 percent said they agreed with this goal. Pakistanis were similar at 76 percent; Indonesians, however, agreed by only a narrow plurality: 49 percent supported the goal (just 14% strongly), while 42 percent disagreed. [/quote]
From [URL]http://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/11/europe/britain-muslims-survey/[/URL] April 12, 2016
[quote]More than half of British Muslims (52%) think homosexuality should not be legal, and nearly half (47%) think it is not appropriate for gay people to teach in schools, according to a new survey of British Muslims. [/quote]
Also religious laws are applied in the majority of Muslims countries which I don't think I have to even link it here. LGBT people face extreme oppression there. There’s also all those religious customs. From mandatory clothes for women to having more than 1 wife to child marriages to punishing women for being raped.
All this leads to the conclusion that people in the Middle-East are [B]not moderates. Not extremists[/B] either mind you.
And none of this says they agree on particular viewpoints either. Two people can both support application of Sharia by government but disagree on exact punishments and even hate each other for following the "wrong" interpretation of sharia and quran.
Please, please don't go back to saying that I'm trying to prove they all agree on the same exact thing.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50900381]Thank you for answering the first part of my request. I will provide evidence at the bottom of my post.
As for the second part. Like I said: I'm not requesting you to disprove my claim by using your own evidence. I'm asking you to prove your [U]own[/U] positive claims that you've made. This is not shifting the burden of proof.
If you want to follow the Bigfoot analogy. We know Muslims exist and that they have varying opinions. So in this analogy Bigfoot is already proven to exist. Now I'm saying it lives in America (majority of Middle-Eastern Muslims are more than conservative), while you are saying that I have to prove it or else it's false, but you are [B]also [/B]claiming that it lives in Asia (majority of Middle-Eastern Muslims are moderate). Now, we've both made positive claims. We both have to prove them. Me asking you to prove your claims is exactly the same as you asking me. [B]We both made positive claims. [/B]I'm still waiting for your evidence of your claims.
Now to my evidence.
I’m arguing that beliefs of majority of Middle-Eastern Muslims may vary but they are little more than conservative. Meaning not moderate but not extremists either. And I’m certainly not arguing that they agree on a particular viewpoint. I will only try to prove they are not moderate but very conservative.
Study by [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WZB_Berlin_Social_Science_Center[/URL] on 9,000 respondents among immigrants and natives in Germany, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Austria and Sweden in 2008 [URL]https://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/files/u6/koopmans_englisch_ed.pdf[/URL] Not a long read. Multiple points that I'm not going to copypaste here because it would make my post a complete mess.
From [URL]http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/apr07/START_Apr07_rpt.pdf[/URL] April 24, 2007
From [URL]http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf[/URL] February 25, 2009
From [URL]http://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/11/europe/britain-muslims-survey/[/URL] April 12, 2016
Also religious laws are applied in the majority of Muslims countries which I don't think I have to even link it here. LGBT people face extreme oppression there. There’s also all those religious customs. From mandatory clothes for women to having more than 1 wife to child marriages to punishing women for being raped.
All this leads to the conclusion that people in the Middle-East are [B]not moderates. Not extremists[/B] either mind you.
And none of this says they agree on particular viewpoints either. Two people can both support application of Sharia by government but disagree on exact punishments and even hate each other for following the "wrong" interpretation of sharia and quran.
Please, please don't go back to saying that I'm trying to prove they all agree on the same exact thing.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50856346]Name one thing about the table under your monitor that makes it peaceful.
Religions aren't "peaceful" or "violent" by design. They are belief systems that govern the topics of metaphysical nature. They are ambigous, and open to interpretation.
[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence#Interpretation_of_Holy_Texts"]Read a little.[/URL][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50856653]New Testament is better, I'll give you that. But old, Torah, Tundal are just. They have a history of worried scholars trying to fix them, but they cant really remake it, so they are pretty bad too.
But it boils down to this: any religious issue is actually a sociopolitical issue, and pushing the blame on religion is useless, wrong, and counterproductive.
What makes the current Christians of Europe tolerant isnt Christianity. Their ancestors used to be damn good Christians and damn untolerant at that. What makes them tolerant is.. them. It is the people that are tolerant. They take the credit, not the book, not anything else. Their society's mindset evolved in a manner that made tolerance the dominant stance in the culture, throughout centuries.
And you get these pricks pushing the entire blame on a 1400 year old religion and you can see what makes me angry. Fundamentalism is an issue, fuck Salafism and Wahhhabism, both of them were sects founded in 19th century and gained traction throughout 20th only because of politics. The aim was political gains made by exploitation of the socioeconomic situations of the Middle Eastern states. British Empire created the Gulf, and the Gulf created a monster they wanted to use but couldnt control.
And people ignore this and push the blame on a book, and it is just retarded, pure and simple.
Also, there is no "their ideology". Islam is a religion. A very varied one. Ideologies are often bred [I]out of[/I] it, but it itself possesses none.
[editline]10th August 2016[/editline]
They exclude all the violent parts of Kuran when they teach it, like, most of the time across the globe.
Show me a line in the new testament that states that the old was thereof obsolete. And show me how Christianity and Judaism "clearly" reformed. I know of no such reformation. The 16th century reforms were never about "violence" and "barbarism". In fact, it only increased afterwards, at least inner conflicts, up until Westphalia, a [I]political treaty[/I]. Even after that a lot of persecution was prevalent for "heretics".[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50857348]Let me backpeddle just a bit. What I mean to say is, there needs to be a reformation of ideas in the Islamic world just as there had been for Christianity. That way Muslims can draw clear lines as to what is considered extreme and what isn't. Currently, that isn't happening.
[editline]9th August 2016[/editline]
Nothing. However, the Christian community has created a consensus to ignore the previous barbaric teachings. In the case of Islam, individuals have to condemn the parts of Islam that are barbaric. These people would be considered peaceful Muslims. I have no problem with them, even though I may disagree with them.
[b]There is a consensus, however, that the Muslims are to follow the barbaric teachings advocated by Muhammad, at least in the Middle East. This has created a toxic ideology that clearly clashes with Western Culture. That is what I have a problem with. Until there has been a clear reformation of ideas by Muslim scholars, it will remain that way.[/b][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Zyler;50858501]Individual Christians still have to ignore the parts of the bible that are barbaric. There are many sects of Christianity that do follow those teachings and are detrimental to society, especially when it comes to the treatment of women and LGBT people.
[b]There is no consensus among all Muslims to follow one interpretation of Islam, in fact there are many different interpretations as varied as the ones which follow Christianity.
Firstly, you have to demonstrate that there is an official source or official organisation within Islamic culture that dictates what you're suggesting. Secondly, you need to prove that pretty much all Muslims follow the exact direction of that official source or body.[/b]
[editline]10th August 2016[/editline]
Which organizations? What exactly are they proposing and how many people follow them?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50858902]TalkIslam is one of the largest with 361,917+ subscribers is funded by iERA and frequently have iERA members on the show.
iERA
[url]https://www.iera.org/[/url]
TalkIslam
[url]https://www.youtube.com/user/lebo2196[/url]
[video=youtube;6DUtLvv6Scg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DUtLvv6Scg[/video]
iERA Members Join ISIS
Sh Hussain Yee (founding member of iERA)
Dr. Muhammad Saleh (founding member of iERA)
Abdur Raheem Green (founding member of iERA)
Hamza Tzortzis (Speaker for iERA)
You are comparing Christians refusing [almost always respectfully] to bake a cake for a gay couple (because it against their religion) and Islamic countries that practice sharia law (and execute homosexuals [thrown off buildings, stoning, burning]). The mental gymnastics you have to do to create comparisons like that is ridiculous.
You ask for an official source or organization. Surely, the governments of these Middle Eastern countries (the ones that enforce the barbaric teachings of the Quran and Hadith [stoning of women being raped, execution of homosexuals, oppression of women, etc.]) be considered an official source or organization as well?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50859537]The comparison of Islam with Christianity is baffling to me. It's not comparable.
The only way it would be comparable would be if majority of Christianity was still the way it was in dark ages before all the reforms and the most progressive Christians would be like today's conservative Christians. Not only that but Catholics, Orthodoxes and Protestants would be calling themselves the "true" Christians, rejecting the other branches for being total blasphemy. And the "progressive" Christian branch would be so small that it wouldn't have it's own name, and those would be the people who are rejecting bad parts of the dark ages' Christianity on their own.
Christianity had it's reforms and while the texts are still in the bible, they are disregarded by the consensus of the majority and by official stance of the Catholic church. [B]This did not happen with Islam.[/B] "Westernized" Muslims are rejecting bad parts of Islam [B]on their own[/B]. They are not part of the mainstream.
When people say "Islam is the problem". They mean the mainstream. Muslims who support sharia are not a small sect of Islam like Westboro Baptist Church is a sect of Christianity. They are the majority (in the world). The usage of the word is correct. It wouldn't be if it was the other way around and "westernized" moderate Muslims would be the majority and the mainstream but they are not.
That said I realize that, while technically correct, saying "Islam is to blame" might be disheartening to moderate Muslims, since there is no actual distinction of them. And it might make them feel unwanted in the community and blamed for actions of other Muslims who they don't really associate themselves with.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50859585]
Are people in this African countries following the mainstream Christianity endorsed by the Pope and the Catholic Church or their own made up version?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Zyler;50859607]I asked him for proof that there is a consensus that all Muslims follow the beliefs he was espousing and he gave me a YouTube channel with 362,000 subscribers. There are 1.2 billion muslims in the world.
That's not a strawman. A strawman is when you create a false facsimile of the other person's argument.
If anything, you're the one strawmanning me.
Do all Christians follow the Catholic Church? I'm pretty sure Protestants and Anglicans exist. Why is Catholicism the official version of Christianity? There's definitely no consensus amongst Christians supporting that.
Have we got proof either way? Why do you assume that people living under a dictatorship that outlaws free speech and protest against the government want to live under a dictatorship? Why would large numbers of them want to leave the country and come to western democracies if that were the case? Do the actions of every western Government, including the US, reflect the beliefs of their citizens too?
If all Muslims supported the same things as each other, why would they kill other Muslims?[/QUOTE]
The arguments made in this thread previously don't seem to center on whether or not Muslims are generally more or less politically conservative, but more centred around the idea that the religion itself condones violence of some kind in a way that Christianity doesn't. Either you've backpedaled or I misinterpreted your viewpoint.
If your argument is that Muslims are generally-speaking more conservative on issues like LGBT rights and Religious Secularism but vary in their political beliefs, then I agree with you.
If your argument is that there is something fundamental to Islam that makes it a violent religion, then I'd remake the same points I did previously.
[editline]17th August 2016[/editline]
I still don't know what it is you're arguing, so I cannot make any positive claims or negative claims or counter-claims or neutral claims or rainbow lolypop claims. Not until I know what exactly it is you belief and why you believe it. This is a complex multi-faceted issue and there are many different interpretations one could have as to, for example, what moderate, conservative, extremist or radical means depending on the context and what beliefs count as such.
You're putting me into a position where I cannot make any statement on the matter without, as you say, "lying", because I don't even know what the argument is about. You want me to claim what the majority of Muslims believe in order to counter your claim of what the majority of Muslims believe, but it's unclear whether you're speaking in regards to politics, religion, condoning of violence or some as yet undefined criteria of 'belief'.
If I even made a positive claim, wouldn't you just dismiss it as trying to establish some kind of 'consensus' among Muslims? Do the majority of Muslims even believe anything? How do you define 'belief'? What does it mean to "not be moderate but not be extremist"? Relative to what? Depending on where you live in the world "moderate" and "extremist" and "conservative" mean different things to different people.
[editline]17th August 2016[/editline]
You seem to be saying that most Muslims are "not moderate, yet not extremist" and conservative, but they also have varying beliefs and it cannot be said that the majority of Muslims believe the same thing (i.e. consensus). Can this "not moderate, yet not extremist" or conservative position be described as a category that the majority of muslims are contained in, with some variety inside said category? If so, would it not be correct to say that the majority of Muslims hold the same belief in this "moderate, yet not extremist" or conservative mindset? Is that not different ways of saying the same thing?
[editline]17th August 2016[/editline]
Do you believe that the majority of Muslims support government application of Sharia?
[QUOTE=Zyler;50900583]The arguments made in this thread previously don't seem to center on whether or not Muslims are generally more or less politically conservative, but more centred around the idea that the religion itself condones violence of some kind in a way that Christianity doesn't. Either you've backpedaled or I misinterpreted your viewpoint.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for considering the possibility that you might have misinterpreted my position. I really appreciate it.
And I think that's what happened honestly. If you look at my posts in this thread I've never even used the word "violence". That is a whole another argument to make and I wouldn't do it.
Also if I've made something to make my position unclear, I apologize.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50900583]If your argument is that Muslims are generally-speaking more conservative on issues like LGBT rights and Religious Secularism but vary in their political beliefs, then I agree with you.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that's pretty much it. Generally speaking Muslims in the Middle-East in majority are very conservative for our standards but vary in their political beliefs (to a point of hate between them sometimes). While the majority of "westernized" Muslims are moderate.
This isn't touching on how violent they are. I'm not making claims about that.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50900664]Thank you for considering the possibility that you might have misinterpreted my position. I really appreciate it.
And I think that's what happened honestly. If you look at my posts in this thread I've never even used the word "violence". That is a whole another argument to make and I wouldn't do it.
Also if I've made something to make my position unclear, I apologize.
Yeah, that's pretty much it. Generally speaking Muslims in the Middle-East in majority are very conservative for our standards but vary in their political beliefs (to a point of hate between them sometimes). While the majority of "westernized" Muslims are moderate.
This isn't touching on how violent they are. I'm not making claims about that.[/QUOTE]
I think what happened is that I assumed you were coming into the thread to support Dimitrik with his argument that "the Christian community has created a consensus to ignore the previous barbaric teachings" and "there is a consensus that the Muslims are to follow the barbaric teachings advocated by Muhammad, at least in the middle east. This has created a toxic ideology that clearly clashes with Western culture."
Jehova's Witnesses are pretty conservative, as is the Westboro Baptist Church. Thankfully, unlike some Middle Eastern countries, religious fundamentalists do not run our government. The point being that the views held by many people may be conservative by MY standards, but to say that clashes with Western Culture would be to say that there are not similar trends and ideologies within Western Culture. If you were to ask me "Would you say the majority of muslims hold generally conservative political beliefs?" I'd say yes, but if you were to say "Do you think the majority of Muslims should not be allowed in the country or are fundamentally incompatible with Western Society?" I'd say no. Like I said, it's a complex and multi-faceted issue.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50900583]
I still don't know what it is you're arguing, so I cannot make any positive claims or negative claims or counter-claims or neutral claims or rainbow lolypop claims. Not until I know what exactly it is you belief and why you believe it. This is a complex multi-faceted issue and there are many different interpretations one could have as to, for example, what moderate, conservative, extremist or radical means depending on the context and what beliefs count as such.
You're putting me into a position where I cannot make any statement on the matter without, as you say, "lying", because I don't even know what the argument is about. You want me to claim what the majority of Muslims believe in order to counter your claim of what the majority of Muslims believe, but it's unclear whether you're speaking in regards to politics, religion, condoning of violence or some as yet undefined criteria of 'belief'.
If I even made a positive claim, wouldn't you just dismiss it as trying to establish some kind of 'consensus' among Muslims? Do the majority of Muslims even believe anything? How do you define 'belief'? What does it mean to "not be moderate but not be extremist"? Relative to what? Depending on where you live in the world "moderate" and "extremist" and "conservative" mean different things to different people.[/QUOTE]
I kept saying "moderate" and "extremist" and "conservative" terms are for our standards.
As per your claims. They do not depend on my arguments or proofs at all. You've made some claims about Muslims on your own.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50900583]You seem to be saying that most Muslims are "not moderate, yet not extremist" and conservative, but they also have varying beliefs and it cannot be said that the majority of Muslims believe the same thing (i.e. consensus). Can this "not moderate, yet not extremist" or conservative position be described as a category that the majority of muslims are contained in, with some variety inside said category? If so, would it not be correct to say that the majority of Muslims hold the same belief in this "moderate, yet not extremist" or conservative mindset? Is that not different ways of saying the same thing?[/QUOTE]
No, because their positions can be exclusionary to each other. 2 positions can both be conservative but opposing each other.
Say there are two Christian sects. One thinks that it's okay to murder gays and the other thinks it's only okay to cut their hands off. And they hate each other. (I took the example to the extreme to make it clear)
[QUOTE=Zyler;50900583]Do you believe that the majority of Muslims support government application of Sharia?[/QUOTE]
I don't know about majority because that's going to vary from country to country but many do. In some countries the majority does want the government to implement sharia. As mentioned in the links I've provided.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50900692]I kept saying "moderate" and "extremist" and "conservative" terms are for our standards.
As per your claims. They do not depend on my arguments or proofs at all. You've made some claims about Muslims on your own. [/QUOTE]
Did I argue anything beyond the lines of "if you're going to argue that the majority of muslims support a particular version of Sharia Law, you need proof"? I don't think I ever argued that the majority of muslims were moderate, especially since I don't believe that anyway.
My main argument has always been that there is no consensus:
[QUOTE=Zyler;50858501]
There is no consensus among all Muslims to follow one interpretation of Islam, in fact there are many different interpretations as varied as the ones which follow Christianity.
[/QUOTE]
Which, unless I'm misunderstanding you, is a statement you agree with?
[QUOTE=Zyler;50900683]I think what happened is that I assumed you were coming into the thread to support Dimitrik with his argument that "the Christian community has created a consensus to ignore the previous barbaric teachings" and "there is a consensus that the Muslims are to follow the barbaric teachings advocated by Muhammad, at least in the middle east. This has created a toxic ideology that clearly clashes with Western culture."
Jehova's Witnesses are pretty conservative, as is the Westboro Baptist Church. Thankfully, unlike some Middle Eastern countries, religious fundamentalists do not run our government. The point being that the views held by many people may be conservative by MY standards, but to say that clashes with Western Culture would be to say that there are not similar trends and ideologies within Western Culture. If you were to ask me "Would you say the majority of muslims hold generally conservative political beliefs?" I'd say yes, but if you were to say "Do you think the majority of Muslims should not be allowed in the country or are fundamentally incompatible with Western Society?" I'd say no. Like I said, it's a complex and multi-faceted issue.[/QUOTE]
Meh, the (varying) level of conservative opinions and religious customs might be exclusionary with our laws and customs. It's not that people are incompatible with Western Society. Some of their beliefs and political positions might though. But it's not exclusive to Muslims at all. Someone who thinks it's okay to steal is going to find himself incompatible with Western Society and will have to change his position on this or he will end up in jail.
[editline]17th August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zyler;50900711]Did I argue anything beyond the lines of "if you're going to argue that the majority of muslims support a particular version of Sharia Law, you need proof"? I don't think I ever argued that the majority of muslims were moderate, especially since I don't believe that anyway.[/QUOTE]
I think you did make some positive claims but now that we are getting close to understanding each other I don't think it's a line of argument worth pursuing.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50900711]My main argument has always been that there is no consensus:
[quote]There is no consensus among all Muslims to follow one interpretation of Islam, in fact there are many different interpretations as varied as the ones which follow Christianity[/quote]
Which, unless I'm misunderstanding you, is a statement you agree with?[/QUOTE]
Sure I agree. And I'm going to add that majority of Muslim interpretations are very conservative for western standards. But once again, there's no consensus. Many of the conservative interpretations are still in opposition to each other.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50900713]
Sure I agree. And I'm going to add that majority of Muslim interpretations are very conservative for western standards. But once again, there's no consensus. Many of the conservative interpretations are still in opposition to each other.[/QUOTE]
This goes back to an argument I made in a previous thread about transgender issues, when it comes to Western Standards or the idea of "normal" it varies from person to person and place to place.
The idea of a set of conservative beliefs being very conservative for Western Standards might be different if you lived in a bible belt state like Texas or Mississippi versus say California (I know neither of us are American, but I thought it would be easier since I know nothing about Polish geography and you might not know much about Australian geography). It's similar to how having sex six times a day might be abnormal for a Mormon but it might be normal for a porn star. Normal is relative. Normal doesn't exist.
The main difference is the level of influence conservative religious groups have in the West versus in the Middle East, and how that affects people who travel between both areas of the world and experience Culture Shock.
[editline]17th August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50900713]
I think you did make some positive claims but now that we are getting close to understanding each other I don't think it's a line of argument worth pursuing.
[/QUOTE]
Well if I did, I'm sorry about that. I probably overreacted in what seemed to be a somewhat heated argument.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50900749]This goes back to an argument I made in a previous thread about transgender issues, when it comes to Western Standards or the idea of "normal" it varies from person to person and place to place.
The idea of a set of conservative beliefs being very conservative for Western Standards might be different if you lived in a bible belt state like Texas or Mississippi versus say California (I know neither of us are American, but I thought it would be easier since I know nothing about Polish geography and you might not know much about Australian geography). It's similar to how having sex six times a day might be abnormal for a Mormon but it might be normal for a porn star. Normal is relative. Normal doesn't exist.
The main difference is the level of influence conservative religious groups have in the West versus in the Middle East, and how that affects people who travel between both areas of the world and experience Culture Shock.[/QUOTE]
Very conservative, as in more conservative than someone who thinks men should be the head of the family, wife's first responsibility is to take care of the house and children and who is opposing gay marriage and has a slight bias against homosexual people. To put it into some perspective. I think most Middle-Eastern Muslims are above that. Again not saying they are so conservative to turn violent.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50901878]Very conservative, as in more conservative than someone who thinks men should be the head of the family, wife's first responsibility is to take care of the house and children and who is opposing gay marriage and has a slight bias against homosexual people. To put it into some perspective. I think most Middle-Eastern Muslims are above that. Again not saying they are so conservative to turn violent.[/QUOTE]
There are some Christian religious groups in The West that are worse than that. In fact, I'd put that description as a relatively mild form of conservatism.
[QUOTE=Zyler;50901906]There are some Christian religious groups in The West that are worse than that. In fact, I'd put that description as a relatively mild form of conservatism.[/QUOTE]
Sure there are more conservative Christians than that. I never argued anything about limits of beliefs. I never said that's the limit for Christians.. I only argued percentages.
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