[QUOTE=mastermaul;32769430]Your entire arguments are based off of hypothetical situations, subjective emotional responses, repeated bouts of sarcasm, and personal attacks to others who are opposed to your views.
Until you can present one built out of facts and more properly structured reasoning you don't hold claim to much validity.[/QUOTE]
The only personal attacks are to those who are continuously misinterpreting the point I'm trying to make. I think it's really frustrating when you have to repeat something to someone over and over.
And the whole debate is hypothetical, a system where people are tortured for mass murder hasn't existed for a long time, and it is doubtful it will ever exist in the future. What is your point?
[QUOTE=Mr. America;32769435]Society would clearly have to support it in majority.[/QUOTE]
And here's a little thing you should learn: people are easily directed. They're like sheep. If I'm in a position where people will listen, I could get them to sponge-bath their grand-parents.
So it's still down to a few men who got where they are by cheating and lying their way to the top. And, obviously, they aren't exactly unbiased and truthful individuals of good heart.
[QUOTE=Kalibos;32769474]don't just make shit up for no reason
there's absolutely no connection there and you know it (or should anyway)
[/QUOTE]
I'm trying to demonstrate an equivalent level of forgiveness as they are proposing. Bank robbing is not equivalent to mass murder and I don't think they should be executed for it, unless they have murdered someone and we know 100% it was them.
[QUOTE=Kalibos;32769474]why?
every time someone asks you people this question, if you don't dance around it, you reply with "justice is about retribution" and it's not
everything else is just circular thinking[/QUOTE]
They killed someone else. Is that not enough reason?
You destroyed another persons life with complete disregard and a lack of care, so explain to me why they deserve to be treated better than the person they senselessly slaughtered.
[QUOTE=BestBuyInBRICK;32769479]The only personal attacks are to those who are continuously misinterpreting the point I'm trying to make. I think it's really frustrating when you have to repeat something to someone over and over.
And the whole debate is hypothetical, a system where people are tortured for mass murder hasn't existed for a long time, and it is doubtful it will ever exist in the future. What is your point?[/QUOTE]
It won't exist again because it's retarded and advocates a bloody empire built upon the corpses of the persecuted.
Y'know, like Germany in WW2.
if you can take away rights they aren't rights.
that's the entire point of rights
[QUOTE=Cone;32769493]And here's a little thing you should learn: people are easily directed. They're like sheep. If I'm in a position where people will listen, I could get them to sponge-bath their grand-parents.
So it's still down to a few men who got where they are by cheating and lying their way to the top. And, obviously, they aren't exactly unbiased and truthful individuals of good heart.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say this could be perfectly implemented. I completely agree it would have major problems if it were. However, ideologically I firmly believe in my opinion. In reality our system is perhaps a little more lenient than I would prefer but at least in the right direction for the most justice that is properly distributed to the guilty. I'm not calling for an overhaul of any judicial system, just stating my opinion for punishment in a hypothetical situation.
[QUOTE=BestBuyInBRICK;32769507]They killed someone else. Is that not enough reason? [/QUOTE]
No. Believe it or not, a human right is something a human has, and it can't be taken away just because some dude in a high chair says it should be.
[QUOTE=Cone;32769493]And here's a little thing you should learn: people are easily directed. They're like sheep. If I'm in a position where people will listen, I could get them to sponge-bath their grand-parents.[/QUOTE]
What makes you so special then? You're a person too, aren't you? So are you saying that you follow whatever bullshit you hear someone spewing just because?
[editline]13th October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=NightmareXx;32769539]if you can take away rights they aren't rights.
that's the entire point of rights[/QUOTE]
Read the fucking thread, you aren't even worth our time. This has been said dozens of times now.
[QUOTE=Mr. America;32769542]I didn't say this could be perfectly implemented. I completely agree it would have major problems if it were. However, ideologically I firmly believe in my opinion. In reality our system is perhaps a little more lenient than I would prefer but at least in the right direction for the most justice that is properly distributed to the guilty.[/QUOTE]
Well, now we come down to what can be considered "justice". Retribution is, and I have the dictionary definition backing me up here, not justice. So you can't do the same thing they did. So that's killing out the window.
[QUOTE=NightmareXx;32769539]if you can take away rights they aren't rights.
that's the entire point of rights[/QUOTE]
Life isn't a right. What right does a drowning man have to life? If it was a right that couldn't be taken away then he can't drown he should be invincible, he has the right to live. It's clearly a privilege as it can be taken and is, which we see very frequently in the world.
[QUOTE=BestBuyInBRICK;32769544]What makes you so special then? You're a person too, aren't you? So are you saying that you follow whatever bullshit you hear someone spewing just because?[/QUOTE]
Yes. Because people are stupid. Maybe the sponge-bath is a bit optimistic, but if you're good enough you can take on the world and win.
[QUOTE=BestBuyInBRICK;32769544]Read the fucking thread, you aren't even worth our time. This has been said dozens of times now.[/QUOTE]
Maybe we're all saying that because we have a point?
Nah, impossible!
[editline]14th October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr. America;32769591]Life isn't a right. What right does a drowning man have to life? If it was a right that couldn't be taken away then he can't drown he should be invincible, he has the right to live. It's clearly a privilege as it can be taken and is, which we see very frequently in the world.[/QUOTE]
Is a world where people die left and right your ideal vision?
Because, by your logic, it is.
[QUOTE=Cone;32769572]Well, now we come down to what can be considered "justice". Retribution is, and I have the dictionary definition backing me up here, not justice. So you can't do the same thing they did. So that's killing out the window.[/QUOTE]
My interpretation of justice is an equalization that punishes the guilty. The dictionary definition of justice may not be fitting but I do not intend to use the word in that manner, if you could kindly guide me to a more accurate word with an aligned dictionary definition be my guest.
[QUOTE=flyschy;32769224]
There is no evidence that the death penalty acts as an effective deterrent.
[/QUOTE]Is there any evidence that it doesn't work?
[QUOTE=Cone;32769617]Maybe we're all saying that because we have a point?
Nah, impossible![/QUOTE]
Shut up. I am fucking well aware that you can't take away rights, stop saying it. It's not an argument, it's just trying to find a fucking loophole in the thread. You're not being smart, and you're not making a point, you're just being a smartass.
I have explained this about 5 times now, explaining that we are discussing if they should be privileges so that they can be taken away, but you seem to be incapable of comprehending that.
[QUOTE=Cone;32769617]Yes. Because people are stupid. Maybe the sponge-bath is a bit optimistic, but if you're good enough you can take on the world and win.
Maybe we're all saying that because we have a point?
Nah, impossible!
[editline]14th October 2011[/editline]
Is a world where people die left and right your ideal vision?
Because, by your logic, it is.[/QUOTE]
No it is not. where did I say at all that I want people to be dying left and right? I said people who murder should be murdered. Life should be preserved as much as possible for anyone who has not committed a murder. I have not once called for everyone to die just because life is not a right, so don't pretend like I did.
[QUOTE=Mr. America;32769639]My interpretation of justice is an equalization that punishes the guilty. [/QUOTE]
That's retribution, and it isn't justice. So you're outta luck there.
[QUOTE]The dictionary definition of justice may not be fitting but I do not intend to use the word in that manner, if you could kindly guide me to a more accurate word with an aligned dictionary definition be my guest. [/QUOTE]
That's the point. What you're selling ain't justice by the meaning of the word.
[QUOTE=BestBuyInBRICK;32769671]Shut up. I am fucking well aware that you can't take away rights, stop saying it. It's not an argument, it's just trying to find a fucking loophole in the thread. You're not being smart, and you're not making a point, you're just being a smartass.
I have explained this about 5 times now, explaining that we are discussing if they should be privileges so that they can be taken away, but you seem to be incapable of comprehending that.[/QUOTE]
Don't be so hostile, it's just a debate of opinions.
[QUOTE=Mr. America;32769406]That's why I'm advocating doing it immediately, not letting them appeal etc. Can you still not grasp that we're talking hypothetically and not about our government's method?[/QUOTE]
sorry but that's a pretty bad way to go about it. the amount of appeals a death row inmate has access to is basically in inverse proportion to how many innocent people end up getting executed. if you decrease the legal recourse that death row inmates have access too, you increase the number of innocent people that are inevitably going to be put to death
[QUOTE=Mr. America;32769684]Don't be so hostile, it's just a debate of opinions.[/QUOTE]
That's what I want it to be. People are trying to be technical in a hypothetical thread. The question is should the Rights be changed to Privileges, not should the rights be taken away.
[QUOTE=Cone;32769678]That's retribution, and it isn't justice. So you're outta luck there.
That's the point. What you're selling ain't justice by the meaning of the word.[/QUOTE]
Some people consider retribution to be justice as they define it themselves. Justice clearly carries an undertone of the meaning I am using as if it didn't you would have been bewildered as much as if I said they were distributing ketchup. I'm not selling dictionary definition justice, sure I conceded to that. I'm selling my own form of justice by my definition.
[QUOTE=Lordgeorge16;32769650]Is there any evidence that it doesn't work?[/QUOTE]
yes
[url]http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates[/url]
[QUOTE=Mr. America;32769673]No it is not. where did I say at all that I want people to be dying left and right? I said people who murder should be murdered. Life should be preserved as much as possible for anyone who has not committed a murder. I have not once called for everyone to die just because life is not a right, so don't pretend like I did.[/QUOTE]
Okay, so imagine a world where people die a lot. Say, prehistoric times.
So, you walk about and think "These people wouldn't be dying if life was a right", so you have no obligation to allow them to keep their lives. Hence, you can kill, pillage and steal as much as you want because you have no reason to let them live as they don't, as humans, deserve their lives as they have no right to it.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;32769691]sorry but that's a pretty bad way to go about it. the amount of appeals a death row inmate has access to is basically in inverse proportion to how many innocent people end up getting executed. if you decrease the legal recourse that death row inmates have access too, you increase the number of innocent people that are inevitably going to be put to death[/QUOTE]
Can you please stop posting... your comments are entirely off topic and have nothing to do with what we're discussing despite my countless attempts to help you see what we are arguing. If you want to discuss how to properly reform the death penalty in the United States, make a new thread and I'll talk to you there. From here out though, I will not respond to you in this thread.
[QUOTE=Mr. America;32769715]Some people consider retribution to be justice as they define it themselves. Justice clearly carries an undertone of the meaning I am using as if it didn't you would have been bewildered as much as if I said they were distributing ketchup. I'm not selling dictionary definition justice, sure I conceded to that. I'm selling my own form of justice by my definition.[/QUOTE]
Your definition of justice isn't justice. It's retribution and free murder.
[QUOTE=Mr. America;32769740]Can you please stop posting... your comments are entirely off topic and have nothing to do with what we're discussing despite my countless attempts to help you see what we are arguing. If you want to discuss how to properly reform the death penalty in the United States, make a new thread and I'll talk to you there. From here out though, I will not respond to you in this thread.[/QUOTE]
cool. i respond directly to a point you make and then you respond with "that's not what we're talking about". great way to go about this man.
[QUOTE=Cone;32769724]Okay, so imagine a world where people die a lot. Say, prehistoric times.
So, you walk about and think "These people wouldn't be dying if life was a right", so you have no obligation to allow them to keep their lives. Hence, you can kill, pillage and steal as much as you want because you have no reason to let them live as they don't, as humans, deserve their lives as they have no right to it.[/QUOTE]
How am I advocating not helping people keep their lives? I'm arguing that you should not harm anybody whatsoever but if you do you should be equally punished. I have not advocated murder or pillage of innocents in any form; don't put words in my mouth, again.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;32769758]cool. i respond directly to a point you make and then you respond with "that's not what we're talking about". great way to go about this man.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://divinecircles.net/public/style_emoticons/default/frog.gif[/img]
[QUOTE=Mr. America;32769760]How am I advocating not helping people keep their lives? I'm arguing that you should not harm anybody whatsoever but if you do you should be equally punished. I have not advocated murder or pillage of innocents in any form; don't put words in my mouth, again.[/QUOTE]
You said life can't be a right as you can lose it. Key-phrase: life isn't a right. So you can do what you want with it. That's what I'm getting at.
[QUOTE=BestBuyInBRICK;32769507]They killed someone else. Is that not enough reason?
You destroyed another persons life with complete disregard and a lack of care, so explain to me why they deserve to be treated better than the person they senselessly slaughtered.[/QUOTE]
because we're a civilized society that should want to set a high standard of morality for ourselves? because it's not the dark ages and things don't function based on eye-for-an-eye mentality? would you cut a thieve's hands off for stealing, or someone's tongue out for slander?
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
