Should Human Rights be a privilege? - General

[QUOTE=Mr. America;32769760]How am I advocating not helping people keep their lives? I'm arguing that you should not harm anybody whatsoever but if you do you should be equally punished. I have not advocated murder or pillage of innocents in any form; don't put words in my mouth, again.[/QUOTE] he's arguing that by collectively placing a higher value on life (ie not torturing people to death as you have suggested) our society will ultimately have less violence in it.

[QUOTE=Mr. America;32769379]I'm aware that my argument assumes that, but that's why I'm arguing that it is not a wrong. Life is not inherently good, obviously, since people with life cause so much damage to other people's lives. I don't see how that's good.[/quote] If life isn't inherently good then why does it matter if they damage other people lives? [QUOTE=Mr. America;32769379]Perhaps Hitler/Stalin/Napoleon deserved life, they were all nice guys just a little funky but they deserve to live. In fact, that's why they put Napoleon on an island by himself to rot to death, which is a form of execution. He also received absolutely no care, just a boat ride to the island. [/quote] Yes they all deserved to live and none of those three were executed. Napoleon didn't die after being exiled (to a populated island) he died of stomach cancer. [QUOTE=Mr. America;32769379]Hitler.[/quote] Godwin. [QUOTE=Mr. America;32769379]My statement is not unfounded because if someone were in a proper mind they would not support mass murders and thus would not support their previous actions and how could anyone reconcile with something they don't support? I also stated that I believe that would be the majority feeling, not that everyone will. I do believe that is how people SHOULD feel. [/quote] How is it impossible for someone to forgive themselves for something they did wrong? I'm sure you've done plenty of things you regret and I'm sure you have moved on with you life and don't suffer from irreconcilable guilt for those actions. [QUOTE=Mr. America;32769379]Why is everyone asking: "Who are you to decide this? Why does your opinion make up the rule?" WELL.. the most obvious answer to these ridiculous questions is that I clearly don't make the rules and that's why this is a OPINION DEBATE. I'm not making rules that affect you all I'm arguing my opinion.[/quote] You state clearly that people who commit murder have to feel irreconcilable guilt or they are not 'in a proper mindset'. So again who are you to decide that people have to feel this way? [QUOTE=Mr. America;32769379]I don't see how you think they would be better off forgiving a murderer? Please elaborate how forgiving someone for taking your brother is better than knowing that person got equal treatment? If they feel guilt for letting a man die out of spite they shouldn't since they didn't make the call to execute him that was the choice of the criminal; and if he can't reconcile with someone choosing to put themselves in an execution situation it would be stupid to kill them... That's not even a reasonable argument. We are saying you execute people for them murdering, not for them feeling bad. If he felt bad and went out and killed someone then yes execute him, but to suggest you kill him for not being able to reconcile that someone was killed for killing other people is just dumb.[/QUOTE] [quote]politicians can be punitive in many respects but still support restorative justice because it makes sense to citizens, and because [b]80% to 99% of people report good experiences with it[/b], whether they are [b]victims, offenders[/b], supporters, or attending police officers (Braithwaite, 2002; Poulson, 2003).[/quote] [url=http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-9133.2007.00459.x/abstract;jsessionid=DBCAD5F90500AB289922B02E194A19DA.d03t03]Source.[/url]

[QUOTE=BestBuyInBRICK;32769777][img]http://divinecircles.net/public/style_emoticons/default/frog.gif[/img][/QUOTE] That doesn't work, you know. Just FYI.

[QUOTE=Cone;32769746]Your definition of justice isn't justice. It's retribution and free murder.[/QUOTE] My definition of justice is clearly not aligned with yours or the dictionary's and I have already said that. It's murder and retribution sure, but justified. If you don't want me to use justice give me a better word, would you prefer I use justified retribution instead?

[QUOTE=BestBuyInBRICK;32769777][img]http://divinecircles.net/public/style_emoticons/default/frog.gif[/img][/QUOTE] i'll stop posting when you effectively justify torture to me.

[QUOTE=Mr. America;32769812]My definition of justice is clearly not aligned with yours or the dictionary's and I have already said that. It's murder and retribution sure, but justified. If you don't want me to use justice give me a better word, would you prefer I use justified retribution instead?[/QUOTE] There's no such thing. If you want a new word, make one yourself. But it ain't gonna be justice because you had to make a new word for it.

[QUOTE=Cone;32769781]You said life can't be a right as you can lose it. Key-phrase: life isn't a right. So you can do what you want with it. That's what I'm getting at.[/QUOTE] Just because life is not a right does not mean you can do whatever you want with it, which is why I advocate the death penalty for people who have grievously mistreated another's life.

Revenge basically shows that you have no self-control. Just because it gives you the satisfaction of killing the person, does not mean it is morally justified.

[QUOTE=Cone;32769837]There's no such thing. If you want a new word, make one yourself. But it ain't gonna be justice because you had to make a new word for it.[/QUOTE] You act as if words can't be used in any way other than definition 1/2/3 as stated in some dictionary..

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;32769828]i'll stop posting when you effectively justify torture to me.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Mr. America;32769760]you should not harm anybody whatsoever but if you do you should be equally punished.[/QUOTE] There. He said it right there.

[QUOTE=Mr. America;32769847]Just because life is not a right does not mean you can do whatever you want with it, which is why I advocate the death penalty for people who have grievously mistreated another's life.[/QUOTE] you're not advocating it very well

Here's a graph. [IMG]http://i53.tinypic.com/mh69us.png[/IMG] [url=http://privateweb.law.utah.edu/_webfiles/academic/journals/utahlawreview/2003_1/07Poulson.pdf]Source.[/url]

[QUOTE=Mr. America;32769847]Just because life is not a right does not mean you can do whatever you want with it, which is why I advocate the death penalty for people who have grievously mistreated another's life.[/QUOTE] A right is the only thing in the world you can't screw with. If no-one has a right to life, there's no reason for me not to kill them as, apparently, nobody deserves their lives simply for the fact that they're sentient.

[QUOTE=BestBuyInBRICK;32769870]There. He said it right there.[/QUOTE] that's not a very good justification. i remain unconvinced i remain unconvinced that a. the government institution of torture, terror, and death as vehicles of social control will somehow "benefit" society and that b. even if they did, that they would be morally justifiable

[QUOTE=BestBuyInBRICK;32769870]There. He said it right there.[/QUOTE] But that doesn't justify it. It just gives more things to justify.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;32769891]that's not a very good justification. i remain unconvinced[/QUOTE] I'm not responding to you then. We obviously have different opinions and nothing either one of us says or does will change the others mind. We are only wasting our time and agitating each other by pointlessly trying to argue our sides.

[QUOTE=Mr. America;32769862]You act as if words can't be used in any way other than definition 1/2/3 as stated in some dictionary..[/QUOTE] Well, look at it this way. Everything is what the word for it is, that's the foundation for every single language ever. You say there's a new word. How would it have any connection to the word "justice" stronger than the one "bacon" does with "desk"?

[QUOTE=Cone;32769905]But that doesn't justify it. It just gives more things to justify.[/QUOTE] So a murderer deserves better treatment than the person whose life he took. Just say that outloud, it doesn't even sound right. It sounds disturbing.

[QUOTE=BestBuyInBRICK;32769918]I'm not responding to you then. We obviously have different opinions and nothing either one of us says or does will change the others mind. We are only wasting our time and agitating each other by pointlessly trying to argue our sides.[/QUOTE] Why, I do believe that is exactly the same thing a petulant child would do in this situation.

[QUOTE=BestBuyInBRICK;32769918]I'm not responding to you then. We obviously have different opinions and nothing either one of us says or does will change the others mind. [/QUOTE] that's your fault, not mine. i mean if you truly gave me a good argument as to why we should torture people to death as punishment, i would agree with you. but i doubt such an argument exists and you certainly haven't offered it up

[QUOTE=BestBuyInBRICK;32769935]So a murderer deserves better treatment than the person whose life he took. Just say that outloud, it doesn't even sound right. It sounds disturbing.[/QUOTE] He deserves exactly what any human on the planet should deserve. No more, no less. And are we assuming he killed a load of hobos, 'cause I don't think Jail's a very nice place.

[QUOTE=flyschy;32769794]If life isn't inherently good then why does it matter if they damage other people lives? Yes they all deserved to live and none of those three were executed. Napoleon didn't die after being exiled (to a populated island) he died of stomach cancer. Godwin. How is it impossible for someone to forgive themselves for something they did wrong? I'm sure you've done plenty of things you regret and I'm sure you have moved on with you life and don't suffer from irreconcilable guilt for those actions. You state clearly that people who commit murder have to feel irreconcilable guilt or they are not 'in a proper mindset'. So again who are you to decide that people have to feel this way? [url=http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-9133.2007.00459.x/abstract;jsessionid=DBCAD5F90500AB289922B02E194A19DA.d03t03]Source.[/url][/QUOTE] I don't see how you think they deserved their lives, they should have been executed. Your source may say 80-99% of people had good experiences and I'm sure they do, but it's not comparing the amount of satisfaction gained through the equal punishment of the perpetrator. Life is not inherently good because some people clearly use their lives to harm others. However, life should be given as much potential to be good as possible until it takes life from someone else for no reason. Of course I have things I've regretted and reconciled with, but I didn't murder people. Again, I am deciding why people should feel that way because it's my opinion; not universal law. I am stating what I think, not the law and reality of the world, as there are people like you who show that not everyone feels how I do. I also, obviously, do not think you have a proper view on the subject as shown by our opposing views.

[QUOTE=BestBuyInBRICK;32769935]So a murderer deserves better treatment than the person whose life he took. [/QUOTE] sure. it's not the government's job to act out retribution a murderer deserves to be removed from society so that he may not harm anybody else. that is all.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;32769878]you're not advocating it very well[/QUOTE] That's because you're not interpreting it well. (Good job on a real post btw).

[QUOTE=Mr. America;32770000]That's because you're not interpreting it well. (Good job on a real post btw).[/QUOTE] right back atcha [img]http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-thumbsup.gif[/img]

[QUOTE=Mr. America;32770000]That's because you're not interpreting it well. (Good job on a real post btw).[/QUOTE] Death is still death, and it's still a person who's died.

[QUOTE=Cone;32769933]Well, look at it this way. Everything is what the word for it is, that's the foundation for every single language ever. You say there's a new word. How would it have any connection to the word "justice" stronger than the one "bacon" does with "desk"?[/QUOTE] Not everything is what the word for it is. For example, rape. It can be a sexual assault or it could just be someone getting destroyed in a video game. There are multiple definitions for words in society despite whether or not someone wrote it in the dictionary. What matters is that the implied definition is understood by the listener.

[QUOTE=Cone;32769971]He deserves exactly what any human on the planet should deserve. No more, no less.[/QUOTE] The person he killed didn't fucking deserve to die, so to make up for that he should be killed as well.

[QUOTE=Mr. America;32770031]Not everything is what the word for it is. For example, rape. It can be a sexual assault or it could just be someone getting destroyed in a video game. There are multiple definitions for words in society despite whether or not someone wrote it in the dictionary. What matters is that the implied definition is understood by the listener.[/QUOTE] That's slang. I doubt you want to go out and force your own meme in the streets that will only be used in the vent someone is killed undeservingly. [editline]14th October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=BestBuyInBRICK;32770039]The person he killed didn't fucking deserve to die, so to make up for that he should be killed as well.[/QUOTE] [B][U]WHY[/U][/B]

[QUOTE=Mr. America;32770031]Not everything is what the word for it is. For example, rape. It can be a sexual assault or it could just be someone getting destroyed in a video game.[/QUOTE] lol no it's not. god i hate nerds who casually use the word "rape" like that. i mean you're in here bloviating about what "murderers deserve" vs. "the victims deserve" but did you ever stop to think that maybe rape victims deserve to be treated with a little more respect ie. not throwing the word "rape" around like it's nothing? [editline]13th October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=BestBuyInBRICK;32770039]The person he killed didn't fucking deserve to die, so to make up for that he should be killed as well.[/QUOTE] how exactly does that "make up" for it? because if it's a blood sacrifice to satan in order to resurrect his victim then i'm totally down with that. [editline]13th October 2011[/editline] hail satan