#ProudToBe [YouTube Spotlight/Huge Shitstorm in the Comments] - General

[QUOTE=J!NX;50575910] BTW, no, censoring hate speech isn't creating a "Safe space". Censoring all speech you don't like is, but blocking hate speech is merely making sure your site isn't filled with trash.[/QUOTE] Well... in theory blocking any speech in efforts to create comfort for a group of individuals is creating a "safe space". Hate speech goes under freedom of speech and suppressing it is creating a "safe space". I do fully understand what you mean and support it, but you cannot blatantly say censorship of hate speech isn't meant to create a "safe space" because it is.

skatehawk11 has a completely limited understanding of how the law actually works and dimitrik129 doesn't actually understand what trans people are like and has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to trans. Both of them very clearly haven't argued about this for long enough to understand their own stance on it. It's not that they're flawed but they simply don't understand the topic as much as someone who has dealt with it personally quite a bit. and no knowing a gay guy doesn't suddenly make you a genius on the topic. Knowing a few black people doesn't suddenly mean you understand what racism is like either. You both have literally no clue what you're talking about. You're just saying things based on a very limited viewpoint. I'm not saying you have to be a lawyer both of you have limited experience on the topic and it clearly shows. [editline]23rd June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=dimitrik129;50576615]Well... in theory blocking any speech in efforts to create comfort for a group of individuals is creating a "safe space". Hate speech goes under freedom of speech and suppressing it is creating a "safe space". I do fully understand what you mean and support it, but you cannot blatantly say censorship of hate speech isn't meant to create a "safe space" because it is.[/QUOTE] I'm finding myself disagreeing more and more with the idea of banning people because they're mildly racist off of facepunch. But hate speech universally isn't acceptable. I don't care what silly words you use. If it turns the internet into a hugbox to ban hate speech then so be it, let the internet become a safe space hug box.

I've had a number of trans friends in my life so I take the topic very seriously. I've seen them have breakdowns, be on the edge of suicide because of other people. The people I know are strong, very strong people who were getting browbeaten by their position in life and just being themselves. That's why I care so strongly and won't drop the argument.

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50576615]Well... in theory blocking any speech in efforts to create comfort for a group of individuals is creating a "safe space". Hate speech goes under freedom of speech and suppressing it is creating a "safe space". I do fully understand what you mean and support it, but you cannot blatantly say censorship of hate speech isn't meant to create a "safe space" because it is.[/QUOTE] are you implying there's a problem with safety or?? what is this post someone explain

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50576631]I've had a number of trans friends in my life so I take the topic very seriously. I've seen them have breakdowns, be on the edge of suicide because of other people. The people I know are strong, very strong people who were getting browbeaten by their position in life and just being themselves. That's why I care so strongly and won't drop the argument.[/QUOTE] I've met very little trans people up front, except ones that I maybe wouldn't have known as trans because you can't actually tell unless you ask. As a kid I've made fun of them with my dad in passing in the past. I've made gay jokes in the past. I thought it was a bit of a joke. I've even believed exactly this as true [QUOTE=dimitrik129;50568992]Let's take a male for example: So long as you carry the appendages and genetics of a male - you are biologically a male. With that being true, you cannot stop people from viewing you in that sense.[/QUOTE] I 100% was sure that this was the truth. And then I found more and more interest in males and that mentality just kind of, went away completely. Eventually I stopped thinking this and become informed. This is why I know dimitrik129 and Skatehawk11 objectively have no idea what they're talking about at all. They aren't bad or hateful, just uninformed.

[QUOTE=J!NX;50576624]skatehawk11 has a completely limited understanding of how the law actually works and dimitrik129 doesn't actually understand what trans people are like and has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to trans. Both of them very clearly haven't argued about this for long enough to understand their own stance on it. It's not that they're flawed but they simply don't understand the topic as much as someone who has dealt with it personally quite a bit. and no knowing a gay guy doesn't suddenly make you a genius on the topic. Knowing a few black people doesn't suddenly mean you understand what racism is like either. You both have literally no clue what you're talking about. You're just saying things based on a very limited viewpoint. I'm not saying you have to be a lawyer both of you have limited experience on the topic and it clearly shows. [editline]23rd June 2016[/editline] I'm finding myself disagreeing more and more with the idea of banning people because they're mildly racist off of facepunch. But hate speech universally isn't acceptable. I don't care what silly words you use. If it turns the internet into a hugbox to ban hate speech then so be it, let the internet become a safe space hug box.[/QUOTE] And I understand where you are coming from, but if we are to censor all of what anybody precieves as hate speech, then the significance of it quickly diminishes. Examples of this are seen with the Facebook-Germany situation, Black Lives Matter, etc.

I've seen the shit LGBT people deal with. Bisexuals especially deal with the problem that people don't take them seriously at all and just pretend they don't exist. [QUOTE=dimitrik129;50578150]And I understand where you are coming from, but if we are to censor all of what anybody precieves as hate speech, then the significance of it quickly diminishes. Examples of this are seen with the Facebook-Germany situation, Black Lives Matter, etc.[/QUOTE] BLM is frankly a shitty group and they're just kind of, their own thing, and I really don't appreciate that facebook might be blocking out racism large scale, despite being an "open" platform. Simple racism and homophobia isn't really hate speech by nature.

[QUOTE=J!NX;50578140]They aren't bad or hateful, just uninformed.[/QUOTE] I think it's a bit worse than that. [t]http://i.imgur.com/qysROFR.png[/t] versus [t]http://i.imgur.com/K7FhPDR.png[/t]

[QUOTE=Qaus;50578885]I think it's a bit worse than that. [t]http://i.imgur.com/qysROFR.png[/t] versus [t]http://i.imgur.com/K7FhPDR.png[/t][/QUOTE] Implying that intellectual diversity and exchange of ideas is suddenly something awful. Through this I have agreed plenty with what a lot of people have to say - I just don't agree with everyone on everything. Am I hateful, evil person for that?

[QUOTE=J!NX;50578151]I've seen the shit LGBT people deal with. Bisexuals especially deal with the problem that people don't take them seriously at all and just pretend they don't exist. BLM is frankly a shitty group and they're just kind of, their own thing, and I really don't appreciate that facebook might be blocking out racism large scale, despite being an "open" platform. Simple racism and homophobia isn't really hate speech by nature.[/QUOTE] I stopped going to Pride events after having a few arguments with some gay men about being bisexual, and their essential position being "You don't actually like both, you just can't pick which one you like more" and "You just want the best of both worlds" type dismissive shit. Hate speech is censurable because it doesn't contain any ideas or information besides hatred. Hatred in and of itself doesn't have any value or worth, so there's nothing poignant to be gained by listening to pure hatred. [editline]23rd June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=dimitrik129;50578922]Implying that intellectual diversity and exchange of ideas is suddenly something awful. Through this I have agreed plenty with what a lot of people have to say - I just don't agree with everyone on everything. Am I hateful, evil person for that?[/QUOTE] Intellectual thought doesn't contain hate. Any measured, rationed, reasoned thought doesn't contain hatred. Hatred is an emotion, not a thought. An intellectual discourse deals in thought, not emotion.

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50578922]Implying that intellectual diversity and exchange of ideas is suddenly something awful.[/QUOTE] there has been no exchange of ideas mostly because your ideas don't hold water and you won't accept any of ours. please let us exchange ideas.

[video=youtube;-OnWnwwxNPA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OnWnwwxNPA[/video]

[QUOTE=J!NX;50578140]I've met very little trans people up front, except ones that I maybe wouldn't have known as trans because you can't actually tell unless you ask. As a kid I've made fun of them with my dad in passing in the past. I've made gay jokes in the past. I thought it was a bit of a joke. I've even believed exactly this as true I 100% was sure that this was the truth. And then I found more and more interest in males and that mentality just kind of, went away completely. Eventually I stopped thinking this and become informed. This is why I know dimitrik129 and Skatehawk11 objectively have no idea what they're talking about at all. They aren't bad or hateful, just uninformed.[/QUOTE] From a strictly biological stand-point, you will remain as the sex that you are born with, so long as your chromosomes and gentitalia prove so. Notice how I said sex. [QUOTE]Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth[/QUOTE] That doesn't mean I think of transgenders as any lesser of a person or that I hate them in any sense. I am completely aware that a large portion of those who are transgender have a mental disorder that makes them think contrary to the sex they are born with. Just because my mentally ill uncle think my toaster is a cat, doesn't make my toaster a cat. I won't hate him for that.

[QUOTE=dannyketch;50578954][video=youtube;-OnWnwwxNPA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OnWnwwxNPA[/video][/QUOTE] this strain of logic is one half to the whole picture. the idea behind gay pride or black pride or whatever isn't to [I]take pride in[/I] being gay or black, it's to have that pride in the face of discrimination and hate. it is to tell people they don't have to be silent, they don't have to back off, and that they should be accepted as much as anyone else. i'm trans, i'm no more prideful in the fact that i'm trans than i'm prideful to be american or fucking right handed. if anyone tries to use any of these as a point of discrimination or hate, my average sense of pride in these things will not be harmed because they're who i am and hate doesn't remove the people that love me, and hate sure as hell won't change who i am. so yes, taking pride in who you are makes no sense. but having pride is a requirement for anyone that wants to love them self. everyone should be prideful of who they are.

"Mental disorder" There's that magical word

[QUOTE=J!NX;50579002]"Mental disorder" There's that magical word[/QUOTE] What would you call it?

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50578992]Just because my mentally ill uncle think my toaster is a cat, doesn't make my toaster a cat. I won't hate him for that.[/QUOTE] comparing insanity to transgender people isn't going to prove a point

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50578992]Just because my mentally ill uncle think my toaster is a cat, doesn't make my toaster a cat. I won't hate him for that.[/QUOTE] Except gender is a cultural construct.

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50579008]What would you call it?[/QUOTE] sexuality/gender minority

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50578933]I stopped going to Pride events after having a few arguments with some gay men about being bisexual, and their essential position being "You don't actually like both, you just can't pick which one you like more" and "You just want the best of both worlds" type dismissive shit. Hate speech is censurable because it doesn't contain any ideas or information besides hatred. Hatred in and of itself doesn't have any value or worth, so there's nothing poignant to be gained by listening to pure hatred. [editline]23rd June 2016[/editline] Intellectual thought doesn't contain hate. Any measured, rationed, reasoned thought doesn't contain hatred. Hatred is an emotion, not a thought. An intellectual discourse deals in thought, not emotion.[/QUOTE] I don't believe I have said anything remotely hateful through all of this unless I was clearly ignorant in a particular argument.

Question: A person who is transgender seems to have no biological proof that they are one sex trapped in another sexes body. It seems to be that a transgender person can simply say "This is how I feel, how I have always felt." Yet there is scientific evidence that they are in fact their original gender...eg genitalia, sex hormones etc etc. If someone suffers from hallucinations for example, doctors say that the hallucinations are not real. The person suffering hallucinations is considered to have a mental illness because they are experiencing something (hallucinations) despite evidence to the contrary (reality). Is a transgender person experiencing a condition where they perceive themselves as the opposite gender DESPITE all evidence to the contrary and no scientific evidence? This is a genuine question Answer: ITT: Lots of Tumblr, apparently. Transgender person here, and your question is a good one (or at least, a common one that really isn't answered clearly very often) The short answer is: yes, Trans people are considered to have a disorder. Gender Dysphoria is a disorder recognized in the DSM. There have been a few studies establishing certain evidence to support the idea that this is inherent (a few having to do with brain mapping/MRIs pop up now and again) but the funding and interest for serious, driven research into the field just hasn't been there until recently. A lot of existing studies are either too old to be taken seriously or flawed due to lack of funding or existing bias. The best guess right now is that the brain is just wired to expect a different set of physical characteristics than it has, and thus causes dysphoria as a way of expressing that it thinks there is something wrong with ones body. Your question seems to be more "Why don't we get these transgender people mental help instead of physical modifications to their body" and the answer is: Trans people already have to have years of therapy from multiple doctors and therapists to get the required letters of recommendation (verification that therapists and doctors have confidence that the person does experience Gender Dysphoria and that they believe that sexual transition would be beneficial to the patient's mental health) needed to get hormones and SRS (sexual reassignment surgery) and no form of conversion therapy has worked anywhere near consistently. It is just easier (at this point in time, at least) to modify the body to reduce dysphoria than it is to modify the brain to stop dysphoria altogether. As far as what I can describe to you from personal experience, I am not in denial about the fact that I have a penis and that I grow facial hair and that my body produces testosterone. I can tell you that the physical presence of these things causes constant distress, feelings of depression and self hate, the whole nine yards. When I wear female clothes, ask you to call me by a different name or use different pronouns, wear makeup, etc., it is more to fool my unconscious self and distract it from the fact that certain parts of my body just feel wrong. Plenty of other similar conditions, like Body Dysmorphic Disorder, have long been recognized and accepted by the medical community. Sometimes the brain expects your body to be different than it is. It's like if you were to take the hard drive out of one computer and into a different computer. You'll probably be able to boot and do most things, but you'll occasionally get some errors because that hard drive and the Operating System inside has been set up to expect a certain hardware configuration in the computer, and has problems when what hardware it thinks you have differs from the hardware you actually hook up to it. We (the medical community) don't know how to reprogram the computer yet, so switching out hardware is the next easiest thing. Trust me, if there was a pill that got rid of my dysphoria so that I felt content with my male sex characteristics, I would imagine that would be far easier and pain free to take than years of hormone therapy and multiple, very expensive surgeries. Such a thing doesn't exist yet, so I only have one other choice. EDIT: I should mention that my experiences doesn't cover every one you hear. There has been a push in certain groups to remove gender dysphoria from being the identifying factor of being transgender, and make it solely an "identity". I personally take issue with this (as it removes all scientific aspects from the issue), but many trans people support the idea or just don't care. It's the internet, and Reddit is a great trolling ground when the Tumblr bloggers want to stir up trouble. You are likely to hear lots of different opinions. [url]https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/31u95d/eli5why_is_a_transgender_person_not_considered_to/[/url]

[QUOTE=Marbalo;50579055]Let me just butt into this discussion and say that this is a load of horseshit. Thought and emotion are not mutually exclusive by any stretch of reasoning. Claiming something like this is intellectually dishonest. Intellectual thought may very well contain hatred, and to say emotions (negative or otherwise) have no place in thought is literally claiming that all humans are basically robots that operate and think strictly based on logic. How daft.[/QUOTE] I don't think you grasp what I'm saying. Reasoning, and logic does it's best to remove the influences of emotion which is by definition of irrational. That is not to say emotion has no place in intellectual thought, it certainly does, but a minor role. Does the theory of gravity contain emotion? No of course not. Relativity? No, again, of course not. Intellectual thought does it's best to minimize emotions because they're not as useful as you're making it seem. An emotion like hate is a great driving force, but it isn't a great thinking force. Just factually speaking about the hormones that generate anger, they do not lend themselves to thoughtful conclusions. Anger, by it's physical limitations, turns the higher functions of thought in your brain off/minimizes them significantly. Call me fucking daft all you want but that's not how brain chemistry works.

It's 2016. Do people still care that people are gay or whatever? [editline]23rd June 2016[/editline] I mean, jesus, I'm a straight white guy living in the Bible Belt and my best friend I met on a comic book discussion website, he's a fat bisexual mexican dude from Michigan. Who cares?

why are you so concerned about it, dimitri?

[QUOTE=testinglol;50579187]why are you so concerned about it, dimitri?[/QUOTE] Might as well have a better understanding of what it all means so that I can make informed arguments.

[QUOTE=Marbalo;50579134]Dude, you are literally confusing brain chemistry with intellectualism. The two have nothing to do with one another and you're just mixing it all up to prove a hollow point. Intellectualism is far wider and broad than just scientific thought alone like you assume it is. What about philosophy? What about schools of thought based around, and revolve around the hatred, avoidance or disgust from and of certain things? You have a very narrow view of what hate is - because you mistake it for a negative emotion that stifles intellectual thought when it just depends on what it is you're hating on. Also, hate does not equate to anger. I'm sorry Im arguing semantics here but you're just wrong on that particular point and I wanted to point it out.[/QUOTE] I really don't think I am and your argument isn't persuasive at all as to why I'm wrong, daft, or whatever else you want to say. If you want to say, as I think you're trying to, that there is a divide between the brain, and thought, you're wrong. Your brain generates your thoughts, it is you. You are your brain chemistry. If you are angry, anger is an emotion composed of chemistry that results in your net thinking process to be clouded. Argue that, or don't, it doesn't matter, evidence bears that out to be the case. Once you are angry, all further "Intellectualism" as you call it, is affected. As far as I can tell, you're trying to draw a non existent line between thoughts, and the brain.

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50579071]Question: A person who is transgender seems to have no biological proof that they are one sex trapped in another sexes body.[/QUOTE] i'm going to disregard the rest of your post because you started this off so SO poorly. [quote]biological proof[/quote] gender is a psychological phenomena that's [I]derived[/I] equal parts from biology and social environment with a tiny dose of RNG thrown in. if there was biological proof for gender there'd also be biological proof for other psychological phenomena like bipolar depression, dyslexia, and maybe even political values! yeah i went there, this is a challenge for you. you will be graded. [quote]one sex trapped in another sexes body[/quote] i hope you realize this is just a simple analogy that transpeople use to explain the sensation of gender dysphoria. nobody is saying they're literally trapped in the wrong body. it's symbolism to drive a point.

[QUOTE=Qaus;50579208]i'm going to disregard the rest of your post because you started this off so SO poorly. gender is a psychological phenomena that's [I]derived[/I] equal parts from biology and social environment with a tiny dose of RNG thrown in. if there was biological proof for gender there'd also be biological proof for other psychological phenomena like bipolar depression, dyslexia, and maybe even political values! yeah i went there, this is a challenge for you. you will be graded. i hope you realize this is just a simple analogy that transpeople use to explain the sensation of gender dysphoria. nobody is saying they're literally trapped in the wrong body. it's symbolism to drive a point.[/QUOTE] That isn't my post I literally copied and pasted it from a reddit discussion. The point I was trying to make was that a transgendered individual answering the questions was fully aware and accepts that what he has is a mental disorder because it fits the very definition of it.

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50579200]Might as well have a better understanding of what it all means so that I can make informed decesions.[/QUOTE] well your [I]decesions[/I] wont change anything. people are gonna put their dicks in stuff and dress the way they want. its not your [I]decesion[/I] to make. you are refusing the understand it anyway. your intentions are clear. trying to label it something wont change it.

[QUOTE=testinglol;50579225]well your [I]decesions[/I] wont change anything. people are gonna put their dicks in stuff and dress the way they want. its not your [I]decesion[/I] to make. you are refusing the understand it anyway. your intentions are clear.[/QUOTE] arguments** didn't mean to put decisions. that didn't really make sense in the context. And what am I not understanding?