#ProudToBe [YouTube Spotlight/Huge Shitstorm in the Comments] - General

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50579224]The point I was trying to make was that a transgendered individual answering the questions was fully aware and accepts that what he has is a mental disorder because it fits the very definition of it.[/QUOTE] but it doesn't fit the definition at all [quote]A mental disorder is a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning.[/quote] and even if we got rid of the word "mental" and just had "disorder", gender doesn't fit in that either. [quote]a state of confusion.[/quote] please explain to me how a biological male identifying as a woman is at all a disturbance of cognition, control of ones' emotions, or behavior that tells people that their psyche, physical brain, or upbringing are/is/were/was dysfunctional.

[QUOTE=Marbalo;50579245]Anger is not hate. You continue to confuse the two and use them interchangeably. There is no divide between the brain and thought. There is [i]also[/i] no divide between hate and intellectualism. Anger is an emotion. Hate is cognitive, rationalized and precise distaste for something very specific. You need to have rationalized good reasons to hate something - as in - you THOUGHT about it and you develop hatred towards it - ergo - intellectual thought. You used your personal rationale to decide that you hate XYZ. This is what I have been trying to convey.[/QUOTE] Hatred is separate from anger, I understand that and I know my argument seems to have conflated them, but they're pretty similar concepts in their own ways. Anger is an emotion. Hatred is a result. Yes, hatred has its reasoning, but does that mean it's thoughtful? I never implied there was a divide between hate and intellectualism. Not even close. What I said, if you'd read carefully, is that anger and hatred effect logical reasoning by degrading it and weakening it. I didn't hate my mother because of logical reasons, but if you asked me to explain that 10 years ago, I could have given you logical reasons. That doesn't make those reasons logical though, because anger had made connections for me where there was none to be made, so I thought I had a good argument to justify my emotion but in retrospect, anger clouded my judgement and weakened my arguments. Anger is not a thoughtful emotion. You keep trying to make it seem like hatred is a cold calculated feeling, or that anger bears no effect on how you're thinking, but they fucking do. Emotion and reason are tied together, I'm not arguing they're not. I'm arguing that one impacts on the other in a negative way, which is why intellectualism tries to remove emotions from it's arguments. Otherwise, philosophical rationing from the likes Locke or Augstine or whoever wouldn't be informed by reasoning, but by emotion as you say they are. Emotion plays a part, but it cannot rule the discourse because emotional thought is by definition reactive, and irrational. You do not need good reasons to hate something. Anger can make bad reasons seem like great reasons because anger is not a thinking emotion. It's a blinding one. But whatever, I'm just daft I guess for believing that your thoughts impact your arguments.

[QUOTE=Marbalo;50579393]The problem however, is that intellectualism without emotion is useless. [/QUOTE] I didn't say "GET RID OF EMOTION ALL TOGETHER", now did I? Nope, I checked. I didn't. [QUOTE] Emotion and reason are both human and both operate at balance with one another - thus any attempt to fully remove emotion from argument like intellectualism is trying to do is a lost and also, quite a stupid cause. [/QUOTE] See above. [QUOTE]It destroys the balance and results in strictly analytical and purely premeditated schools of thought that bare no fruits of intellectualism on any level.[/QUOTE] See above. Emotion is fine, it has it's uses, but it also has it's hindrances. Yes some feelings could motivate you to go further down a certain path discovering certain things to yourself that without that motivation, you wouldn't have discovered. Sure, I'm not fucking arguing that(you go on to talk about my passive aggressive attitude, but you've had no problem putting words in my mouth). Emotion plays a role, I didn't argue it didn't. I argued that hatred is a negative emotion as it impacts thoughts and reasoning, it could potentially have benefits, but it is by and large, not a positive emotion for intellectual thought. If I hated you, would that give me more reasoning to continue this argument? Sure, but would it give me the logical edge to prove my sides right? No, it wouldn't. [QUOTE]In the same ways that hatred clouds your mind, it may also do the opposite. The same thing happens with anger - it, again, depends on how you use these emotions to your advantage. [/QUOTE] Sure and that's true. Anger is a physical emotion that drives your body and can carry you out of some pretty horrific scenarios. But anger doesn't make you smarter, or more capable of dealing with a heated situation. It makes you stupider. That's proven. Soldiers who are going through wartime combat operations don't tend to report "anger" as a driving emotion because they're calmer than anger would allow for. Why is that important if Anger is as amazing as you're saying it is? [QUOTE]You can use it to increase your focus, determination, motivation or any number of good, positive things - born out of negative thought. You can also formulate rational argumentation out of hatred for something.[/QUOTE] I covered this but you seemed to have ignored my entire argument around why this isn't the case necessarily. [QUOTE] You could really hate transphobic people - you would be wary of using the word hate but that's what it basically is - so you formulate arguments out of that to prove the other side wrong or even spite them on some level because you also exprience anger or hatred on some level. [/QUOTE] And as this very thread has shown, the people who truly hate trans individuals lack rational arguments as to why that is, but they believe their reasoning to be air tight. So, yes, anger, as I have gone over this can make you think, but it doesn't make you think "better" as you're claiming it does. [QUOTE]It may be for a good cause, but it's anger and hatred nonetheless thus, clearly intellectualism has nothing to do with anger or hatred and both can coexist within the mind. Basically making your point null. [/QUOTE] Intellectualism like I have iterated over and over and over again, tries to minimize those emotions in it's formulated arguments. Find me one argument from Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Locke, etc that aren't based on intellectual thought, but on anger. Surely if you're right, they exist? They must have argued from emotion, and not thought? No, they argued from both and minimized one wherever it was possible.

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;50579536]I like you're on the science / logical thinking side but you disagree that transgenderism is not a mental illness.[/QUOTE] It's a deviation from the normal standard. Disorder is an accurate albeit insensitive term. And no I never stated a fucking word about it either way until this post so how could you possibly say what you're saying without having not read the thread very closely? [editline]23rd June 2016[/editline] And as a disorder the best cure for it is transitioning. Generally speaking it does variate person to person though

I live in a society where trans, gays and bi's are widely discriminated. Someone even told me the Orlando shooting was a good thing. Somebody fucking help me.

oh jesus what an incredible pissing contesting

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50579695]oh jesus what an incredible pissing contesting[/QUOTE] I don't think you have any right to say this.

Tbh at least they are being open and just speaking their mind They've been pretty chill all of these.pages this has been the least shitty trans debate related thread I've seen so far. Most of them are absolutely the worst .

Kind of offended that people think I hate trans people or anyone in the LGBT community. Not sure how people are lead to the conclusion. I appreciate this debate because I learn things in the process of sharing my ideas. The entire basis of my argument was to respect the boundaries that we have had for decades (bathrooms corresponding the sex you are born with). I didn't think I am too far out of line for acknowledging why these norms were put in place to begin with. Like I said, I am entirely fine assimilating if there is a consensus.

[QUOTE=skatehawk11;50579536]I like how you're on the science / logical thinking side but you disagree that transgenderism is not a mental illness.[/QUOTE] But it's not. It's literally not. Gender Identity Disorder isn't the term for being trans anymore. The DSCM-V Reclassified it to Gender Dysphoria SPECIFICALLY so that both insurance companies and other doctors could stop discriminating so much because they don't cover "disorders" or you would receive corrective treatment as opposed to the proper treatment that you needed(i.e. transition) because it was "disorder" I was part of the movement to get it reclassified. If you're going to take some logical science based approach to everything then try having your facts right in the first place. The medical community now 100% Agree's that being trans is NOT a mental illness or disorder. [editline]24th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=dimitrik129;50581966]Kind of offended that people think I hate trans people or anyone in the LGBT community. Not sure how people are lead to the conclusion. I appreciate this debate because I learn things in the process of sharing my ideas. The entire basis of my argument was to respect the boundaries that we have had for decades (bathrooms corresponding the sex you are born with). I didn't think I am too far out of line for acknowledging why these norms were put in place to begin with. Like I said, I am entirely fine assimilating if there is a consensus.[/QUOTE] Well you've failed to grasp after having it repeatedly explained to you that there's tons of scientific and medical evidence to prove that transpeople aren't just people with a mental illness, instead you're sticking to the tried and true "B-but.. You have a Dick/Vag!" and it's just such a tiring argument. I can respect that you've atleast not raged and jumped on anyone's ass but you and skatehawk are also both incredibly stubborn.

[QUOTE=Paige;50586229]But it's not. It's literally not. Gender Identity Disorder isn't the term for being trans anymore. The DSCM-V Reclassified it to Gender Dysphoria SPECIFICALLY so that both insurance companies and other doctors could stop discriminating so much because they don't cover "disorders" or you would receive corrective treatment as opposed to the proper treatment that you needed(i.e. transition) because it was "disorder" I was part of the movement to get it reclassified. If you're going to take some logical science based approach to everything then try having your facts right in the first place. The medical community now 100% Agree's that being trans is NOT a mental illness or disorder. [editline]24th June 2016[/editline] Well you've failed to grasp after having it repeatedly explained to you that there's tons of scientific and medical evidence to prove that transpeople aren't just people with a mental illness, instead you're sticking to the tried and true "B-but.. You have a Dick/Vag!" and it's just such a tiring argument. I can respect that you've atleast not raged and jumped on anyone's ass but you and skatehawk are also both incredibly stubborn.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure if you are purposely misconstruding what I say so that you can prove a "cogent" point, but you seem to be doing a good job at it. Here it is in basic terms: [B]Sex[/B] refers to [B]biological differences[/B]; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs. Here is what I said: The entire basis of my argument was to respect the boundaries that we have had for decades (bathrooms corresponding the [B]sex[/B] you are born with). [editline]24th June 2016[/editline] This entire time I have asked for scientific evidence disproving my points, but no one has been nice enough to give it to me.

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50586435]I'm not sure if you are purposely misconstruding what I say so that you can prove a "cogent" point, but you seem to be doing a good job at it. Here it is in basic terms: [B]Sex[/B] refers to [B]biological differences[/B]; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs. Here is what I said: The entire basis of my argument was to respect the boundaries that we have had for decades (bathrooms corresponding the [B]sex[/B] you are born with).[/QUOTE] yes thats great and all, but literally all of the trans community is about gender identity. The entire point is [B]GENDER[/B], which is a non-biologically assigned social term like "he" and "She" etc The worst insult that you can throw at any trans person isn't that they're disgusting, or even that they're in the wrong, it's completely ignoring a gender identity that they have made for themselves and worked towards. It's completely throwing away everything they want to be.

[QUOTE=J!NX;50586507]yes thats great and all, but literally all of the trans community is about gender identity. The entire point is [B]GENDER[/B], which is a non-biologically assigned social term like "he" and "She" etc[/QUOTE] And I understand that. People are acting like I don't understand the difference when I clearly do. My point to be entirely clear is that I believe that it's not the governments role to decide who goes into the bathrooms and who doesn't. That is up to the business.

so in other words your entire argument is "but its traditional to!!!". There is no logical reason to disallow trans people from using the bathroom of their identified gender. There are also [URL="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/"]measurable[/URL] [URL="http://www.transgendercare.com/medical/hormonal/brain_sex_diff.htm"]biological[/URL] [URL="http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/09/12/cercor.bhu194.full"]differences [/URL]that indicate that transgenderism isn't simply a mental illness and in fact has roots in the physiological.

[QUOTE=Kyle902;50586522]so in other words your entire argument is "but its traditional to!!!". There is no logical reason to disallow trans people from using the bathroom of their identified gender. There are also [URL="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/"]measurable[/URL] [URL="http://www.transgendercare.com/medical/hormonal/brain_sex_diff.htm"]biological[/URL] [URL="http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/09/12/cercor.bhu194.full"]differences [/URL]that indicate that transgenderism isn't simply a mental illness and in fact has roots in the physiological.[/QUOTE] My point is that we should at least understand the reasoning as to why these norms were put created in the first place before going ahead and changing everything.

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50586558]My point is that we should at least understand the reasoning as to why these norms were put created in the first place before going ahead and changing everything.[/QUOTE] The "norms" were put into place because western society, and specifically the US, has an irrational taboo in regards to human genitalia. Unisex bathrooms are relatively common across most of the world and gender differentiated bathrooms are a relatively recent concept. Your argument makes no sense and you've repeatedly demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding in regards to the subject matter.

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50586558]My point is that we should at least understand the reasoning as to why these norms were put created in the first place before going ahead and changing everything.[/QUOTE] these norms were put in place, as you put it, because people didn't consider trans people a priority or respect them. But times are different now. It's much easier to gain access medically for a trans person to the things they need to transition and therefore society now has to accept that trans people actually exist as opposed to pretending they don't until they want to make a joke about a mannish looking woman or vice versa.

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50586558]My point is that we should at least understand the reasoning as to why these norms were put created in the first place before going ahead and changing everything.[/QUOTE] that's great but the norms are morally wrong and it doesn't matter why they're in place, we don't live in the 19XX any more This sounds like an absolute tangent of a reason tbh. The norm used to be lynching black people in the streets and arresting consenting gay men as pedophilias, and over a century ago the norm was locking children up for having mental disabilities, and yet no one questioned WHY people did this when the law changed because it was immoral, why should we do it for trans people? Trans people being shunned isn't what should be considered acceptable any more.

[QUOTE=Kyle902;50586579]The "norms" were put into place because western society, and specifically the US, has an irrational taboo in regards to human genitalia. Unisex bathrooms are relatively common across most of the world and gender differentiated bathrooms are a relatively recent concept. Your argument makes no sense and you've repeatedly demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding in regards to the subject matter.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't call it irrational to have a basic understanding that human genitalia have conotation to sex and sexuallity. And please stop with the lack of respect for what I have to say. I have been incredibly civil and understanding with what you have had to say although I disagree. It is hard to take anything you say seriously when you have comments like that.

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50586678]I wouldn't call it irrational to have a basic understanding that human genitalia have conotation to sex and sexuallity.[/QUOTE] It is irrational to let such taboos affect your judgement in a situation like this. Furthermore you don't even see peoples genitalia in the bathroom so your entire argument is based on nothing. [quote] And please stop with the lack of respect for what I have to say. I have been incredibly civil and understanding with what you have had to say although I disagree. It is hard to take anything you say seriously when you have comments like that.[/quote] I have been nothing but cordial with you. If you can't take what I'm saying then you must have some incredibly thin skin.

Wow 12 pages, who gives a shit. The video meant well but they had a few special snowflake attack helicopters, so what?

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50586725]In Norway, so Ive heard, women are men are in the same rooms in the military. They dress up there, so genitalia are sometimes seen, and there are connotations. Are you suggesting people wouldnt have control of themselves upon the concept, not even sight, of a genitalia?[/QUOTE] Ask femenists. [url]https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/overcoming-child-abuse/201203/the-sexualization-women-and-girls[/url] [url]http://msmagazine.com/blog/2016/01/04/toxic-culture-101-understanding-the-sexualization-of-women/[/url] I am trying to come at this from the most neutral standpoint possible which is why I am pushing for this issue to be decided at a case by case basis by businesses. [editline]24th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=J!NX;50586643]that's great but the norms are morally wrong and it doesn't matter why they're in place, we don't live in the 19XX any more This sounds like an absolute tangent of a reason tbh. The norm used to be lynching black people in the streets and arresting consenting gay men as pedophilias, and over a century ago the norm was locking children up for having mental disabilities, and yet no one questioned WHY people did this when the law changed because it was immoral, why should we do it for trans people? Trans people being shunned isn't what should be considered acceptable any more.[/QUOTE] Lynching black people and bathrooms seperated by sex are barely a fair comparison.

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50586744]Ask femenists. [url]https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/overcoming-child-abuse/201203/the-sexualization-women-and-girls[/url] [url]http://msmagazine.com/blog/2016/01/04/toxic-culture-101-understanding-the-sexualization-of-women/[/url] [/quote] What the hell does the objectification of women have to do with the subject matter? [quote] I am trying to come at this from the most neutral standpoint possible which is why I am pushing for this issue to be decided at a case by case basis by businesses.[/QUOTE] Whether or not your stance is neutral is completely irrelevant if the basis of your argument is factually incorrect. [editline]24th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=dimitrik129;50586744] Lynching black people and bathrooms seperated by sex are barely a fair comparison.[/QUOTE] Implying trans people aren't fucking murdered all the time for being trans? Saying that the civil rights movement and the trans rights movement aren't comparable is quite simply incorrect.

[QUOTE=Kyle902;50586759]What the hell does the objectification of women have to do with the subject matter? Whether or not your stance is neutral is completely irrelevant if the basis of your argument is factually incorrect.[/QUOTE] The objectification/sexualization of women and men are a contributing factors as to why lockerrooms and bathrooms are seperated. [editline]24th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Kyle902;50586759]What the hell does the objectification of women have to do with the subject matter? Whether or not your stance is neutral is completely irrelevant if the basis of your argument is factually incorrect. [editline]24th June 2016[/editline] Implying trans people aren't fucking murdered all the time for being trans? Saying that the civil rights movement and the trans rights movement aren't comparable is quite simply incorrect.[/QUOTE] Give me a statistic that proves that trans people are murdered "all the time" for being a trans.

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50586777]The objectification/sexualization of women and men are a contributing factors as to why lockerrooms and bathrooms are seperated.[/QUOTE] Neither of your sources have anything to do with lockers or bathrooms. As a matter of fact one of your sources is a fucking blog post. [editline]24th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=dimitrik129;50586777] Give me a statistic that proves that trans people are murdered "all the time" for being a trans.[/QUOTE] [url]http://forge-forward.org/wp-content/docs/FAQ-10-2012-rates-of-violence.pdf[/url] [quote]Multiple studies indicate that over 50% of transgender people have experienced sexual violence at some point in their lives. This rate is nearly double (1 in 3 girls) or triple (1 in 6 boys) the commonly reported rates of sexual abuse.[/quote] [url]http://time.com/3999348/transgender-murders-2015/[/url] [quote]. Nearly 80% of transgender people report experiencing harassment at school when they were young. As adults, some report being physically assaulted trains and buses, in retail stores and restaurants.[/quote] [quote]Sixteen of the at least 20 LGBT people murdered in 2014 were people of color, according to the NCAVP; 11 were transgender women, and 10 were transgender women of color.[/quote] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unlawfully_killed_transgender_people[/url] etc etc etc etc etc

[QUOTE=Kyle902;50586789]Neither of your sources have anything to do with lockers or bathrooms. As a matter of fact one of your sources is a fucking blog post.[/QUOTE] Why wouldn't it have to do with lockerrooms and bathrooms when those are clearly places of privacy and exposure of the body. More so with lockerrooms than bathrooms however

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50586824]Why wouldn't it have to do with lockerrooms and bathrooms when those are clearly places of privacy and exposure of the body. More so with lockerrooms than bathrooms however[/QUOTE] I fail to see how this has any relation to the objectification of women. Furthermore if you're exposing yourself to others in the bathroom then you're doing it wrong.

[QUOTE=Kyle902;50586789]Neither of your sources have anything to do with lockers or bathrooms. As a matter of fact one of your sources is a fucking blog post. [editline]24th June 2016[/editline] [url]http://forge-forward.org/wp-content/docs/FAQ-10-2012-rates-of-violence.pdf[/url] [url]http://time.com/3999348/transgender-murders-2015/[/url] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unlawfully_killed_transgender_people[/url] etc etc etc etc etc[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Although greater attention is being given to research and data collection of transgender people in general, quantitative and qualitative data is still sparse, especially related to violence by or against transgender or gender non-conforming individuals. [B]It is critical to keep in mind that data -- any data that might exist -- is based on the collection of individual peoples’ lives and experiences. [/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50586829][/QUOTE] I fail to see your point here? All data like this is a collection of individuals lives and experiences? [editline]24th June 2016[/editline] Are you denying the objective fact that transgender people are murdered?

[QUOTE=Kyle902;50586832]I fail to see your point here? All data like this is a collection of individuals lives and experiences?[/QUOTE] Accidently boldened the wrong sentence, but the first sentence of the first paragraph of the article says: [QUOTE]Although greater attention is being given to research and data collection of transgender people in general, quantitative and qualitative data is still sparse, especially related to violence by or against transgender or gender non-conforming individuals. [/QUOTE] Being that, how is this supposed to be a credible article if data is so clearly sparse.