Do new cars with the old mechanical throttle (instead of "drive-by-wire") exist? - General

[QUOTE=Second-gear-of-mgear;34805937]Shiieettt, you live near Nashville? I grew up in Cookeville! I really miss that state, I hate Florida.[/QUOTE] I'm out on the east side of Nashville about a mile from Smith County. There isn't really much to miss out here though. [QUOTE=Disco_Potato;34806141]The reason they allowed traction control in F1 is because it made them faster. There was a huge debate about not wanting to make the cars "easier" to drive, but once it was proven that it not only made them faster, but significantly faster, the systems were allowed to stay.[/quote] And then it was banned again because it took the skill out of launching the cars off the grid and out of slower corners. It was no longer "He who is the best driver is the winner", it was "He who has the best traction control is the winner". [quote]The difference is not as big on a high performance street car as they cant predict road conditions and tires nearly as well as they can on a specific setup, and in a typical road car traction control is completely a hindrance. But, that doesnt change the fact that the technology CAN be used for performance.[/quote] Where'd I say it couldn't? [quote] Even with 412 hp, 390 ft/lbs, extremely short gearing and shit tires, I have no trouble maintaining traction.[/quote] To be fair it doesn't take much power to break the rears loose. I can to a brakestand and I've got a whopping 120HP or so left. [quote]But thats not the point. Im simply saying that these things can be used for different things. you cant condemn drive-by-wire and traction control just because its used for safety/economy in 99% of cars.[/quote] I never condemned drive by wire. Stop acting like I did. And as for TC, I see that as a crutch people use as an excuse to take greater risks. Why should they practice proper throttle control when they can just mash it and let the computers sort the wheelspin? They see no reason to take responsibility for safely controlling their engine because the car will do it for them. That's why I want to see TC gone on cars, or automatically disabled above half throttle unless you manually hold down a button to override that. [quote]Transmission aside, there is benefit to drive-by-wire. Even with a normal transmission and clutch they would still use drive-by-wire if they had the chance.[/quote] Flappy paddle gearboxes arrived in F1 before drive-by-wire AFAIK. [quote]A good stepper motor and a highly accurate potentionmeter pedal are super accurate and fast.[/quote] So is a good cable. So what? [quote]Plus you have the ability to tune the relationship and use torque management.[/quote] Pedal geomtry and driver skill. [quote]Its not like a mechanical linkage is without problems either.[/quote] I never said it wasn't, and I never said either was better or worse. I have no fucking idea where you got onto this idea. [quote]On my race car I had to check/adjust the throttle cable every single race to make sure I was getting the throttle open all the way, and I only had a single throttle.[/quote] Odd setup you had then, most of the time the adjustment point is at the throttle blade itself, the pedal able to move much farther without a cable. [quote]When you have 12 throttles you have to not only check each to see if theyre opening fully, but you have to syncronize them as well.[/quote] You still have to do this with drive-by-wire. No two pots will return the same value, and if you don't fine-tune them you're going to have some throttles not open enough and some throttles bottoming out the actuator. [quote]Then there are issues of slack in the machanism, which you pretty much just have to live with.[/QUOTE] There's slack in a DBW throttle as well, especially as the mileage racks up and the pots start to wear. Either system has it's pros and cons, I never said one was better than the other, so stop trying to sell one over the other.

i dont feel like wasting gas today, lets flash my economy map i feel like driving like an ass today, lets flash my e85 map for a DD I think electronic throttles are the way to go, the more the ECU controls the easier it is to have complete control over everything [editline]22nd February 2012[/editline] shit will have to be fine tuned regardless, the question is would you rather input numbers into a spreadsheet or fuck around with linkages? with DBW you only have to do it once though

[QUOTE=edberg;34819837]i dont feel like wasting gas today, lets flash my economy map i feel like driving like an ass today, lets flash my e85 map for a DD I think electronic throttles are the way to go, the more the ECU controls the easier it is to have complete control over everything[/quote] I think for a DD whatever's the most reliable and cost effective is the way to go. For some cars that will be a cable, some cars that will be DBW, some cars may even have a mixture of both(DBW system for the pedal, cruise control uses cable?). There isn't any one 'better' system, I could rattle off lists of pros and cons for both equally long if I wanted to. [quote] shit will have to be fine tuned regardless, the question is would you rather input numbers into a spreadsheet or fuck around with linkages? with DBW you only have to do it once though[/QUOTE] If I were building my own I'd opt for linkages. I prefer the feel and the fact that they're more or less immune to water. They should only need adjusting once or twice in the car's lifespan. If you have to adjust the throttle cable more than once every decade there's something else going on that needs to be fixed first. But I'm one of those nuts that likes to work on their own, and I find it easier to use a couple wrenches than rely on a laptop to adjust things.

[QUOTE=edberg;34819837]i dont feel like wasting gas today, lets flash my economy map i feel like driving like an ass today, lets flash my e85 map[/QUOTE] how do u do that

[QUOTE=abcpea2;34825175]how do u do that[/QUOTE] Most likely an aftermarket ECU that allows such a toggle. Either that, or he's got a sports car that comes standard with such things. Why he'd switch to an E85 map when he's not running E85 is a better question.

[QUOTE=TestECull;34826295]Why he'd switch to an E85 map when he's not running E85 is a better question.[/QUOTE] because [I]RACECAR[/I]

[QUOTE=TestECull;34805793]That's high performance stuff. For every one high performance car they build, ten or fifteen sluggish commuter cars get churned out. Fuck traction control. I manage to do just fine without it, and if i can do it anyone can. I'm not by any means an expert driver. Drive by wire doesn't make them faster by itself. What does is that the computers can snap the throttles shut during shifts to preserve the transmission. The flappy paddle transmission they use, which shifts in well under a hundred milliseconds either way, is where the speed gains come from, the drive-by-wire only facilitates that transmission surviving the distance the FIA specifies. The cars wouldn't be any slower with a mechanical throttle, however they would eat transmissions like crazy.[/QUOTE] Even skilled drivers can benefit from traction control on a commuter car. There's no reason at all not to have it.

[QUOTE=ice445;34826415]Even skilled drivers can benefit from traction control on a commuter car. There's no reason at all not to have it.[/QUOTE] For every one instance of a skilled driver benefitting from traction control you have ten soccer moms that absolve themselves of all responsibility and mash the throttle wildly because the computer will sort it out for them.

[QUOTE=TestECull;34826444]For every one instance of a skilled driver benefitting from traction control you have ten soccer moms that absolve themselves of all responsibility and mash the throttle wildly because the computer will sort it out for them.[/QUOTE] As correct as you are, I kind of doubt that many soccer moms even know what traction control is or that it's even working (Thus knowing they can abuse it). Anything that keeps terrible drivers from hitting me is a plus. I kind of wish my 98 Chrysler had it sometimes, but then I wouldn't feel cool after correcting a slide in the snow on my own, so meh

[QUOTE=ice445;34826505]As correct as you are, I kind of doubt that many soccer moms even know what traction control is or that it's even working (Thus knowing they can abuse it). Anything that keeps terrible drivers from hitting me is a plus. I kind of wish my 98 Chrysler had it sometimes, but then I wouldn't feel cool after correcting a slide in the snow on my own, so meh[/QUOTE] How could they not know about it? It's on the ads. It's a selling point. On top of that, they have to know [i]something[/i] is up when they can mash 400HP WOT on snow and not do an instant donut. They know cars take care of things on their own and abuse that. They don't want to drive properly, and they're the ones that worry me the most. I honestly think without the electronic aids they'd get scared into driving sensibly VERY fast.

[QUOTE=TestECull;34826741]How could they not know about it? It's on the ads. It's a selling point. On top of that, they have to know [i]something[/i] is up when they can mash 400HP WOT on snow and not do an instant donut. They know cars take care of things on their own and abuse that. They don't want to drive properly, and they're the ones that worry me the most. I honestly think without the electronic aids they'd get scared into driving sensibly VERY fast.[/QUOTE] He's probably talking about the same people that complain that their brake pedals vibrate when they brake too fast and think something is wrong with their car even though its ABS.

[QUOTE=TestECull;34826741]How could they not know about it? It's on the ads. It's a selling point. On top of that, they have to know [i]something[/i] is up when they can mash 400HP WOT on snow and not do an instant donut. They know cars take care of things on their own and abuse that. They don't want to drive properly, and they're the ones that worry me the most. I honestly think without the electronic aids they'd get scared into driving sensibly VERY fast.[/QUOTE] I doubt it, look at how many accidents there used to be pre electronic safety and ABS. As of 2012 we're at the lowest amount of accidents even with the insane amount of cars on the road now. Going back to no aids would just make bad drivers crash into other people more often than they already do.

[QUOTE=abcpea2;34825175]how do u do that[/QUOTE] plug in laptop be careful tho you can cause danger to manifold [editline]23rd February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=TestECull;34826295]Most likely an aftermarket ECU that allows such a toggle. Either that, or he's got a sports car that comes standard with such things. Why he'd switch to an E85 map when he's not running E85 is a better question.[/QUOTE] open source flashing software all over the internet, i've never seen a car come "standard" with a flashable ecu, it's usually a workaround/hack also gameboy [img]http://www.motovicity.com/_images/products/cobb-tuning-accessport.png[/img] and sure let's just throw a bunch of timing at my car with crappy fuel [editline]23rd February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=ice445;34827079]I doubt it, look at how many accidents there used to be pre electronic safety and ABS. As of 2012 we're at the lowest amount of accidents even with the insane amount of cars on the road now. Going back to no aids would just make bad drivers crash into other people more often than they already do.[/QUOTE] cars are just appliances to most people, why make them difficult to use?

[QUOTE=ice445;34827079]I doubt it, look at how many accidents there used to be pre electronic safety and ABS. As of 2012 we're at the lowest amount of accidents even with the insane amount of cars on the road now. Going back to no aids would just make bad drivers crash into other people more often than they already do.[/QUOTE] Traction control is the devil and tries to kill me in the rain. I do not enjoy being forced to correct traction control induced oversteer in a FWD car because I wish to enter the highway at more than 25mph when it's a little slick out and the shitty stock 900 treadwear tires spun a little. ABS is amazing though, the ABS in my Integra has potentially saved my life and car many times especially in the rain.

[QUOTE=edberg;34827591] open source flashing software all over the internet, i've never seen a car come "standard" with a flashable ecu, it's usually a workaround/hack[/quote] Most supercars have an ECU that lets you switch through tunes with the push of a button they install in the dashboard. They already have that functionality right off the showroom floor. [quote]also gameboy [img]http://www.motovicity.com/_images/products/cobb-tuning-accessport.png[/img][/quote] [img]http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/screwdriver-1.jpg[/img] [img]http://howmomdidit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/at-tools-combo-wrench.jpg[/img] All I need to adjust my engine's fuel mix and ignition timing, and I don't have to worry about water damage or burglars if I leave 'em in the seat. [quote]and sure let's just throw a bunch of timing at my car with crappy fuel[/quote] Huh? I still don't know why you're saying you use an E85 map without using E85. The curves aren't set for gasoline, may very well be damaging something. [editline]26th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=ice445;34827079]I doubt it, look at how many accidents there used to be pre electronic safety and ABS. As of 2012 we're at the lowest amount of accidents even with the insane amount of cars on the road now. Going back to no aids would just make bad drivers crash into other people more often than they already do.[/QUOTE] The idiots will slide off the road, hit trees, and either learn to fucking drive or take themselves off the roads. I don't want the roads safer because the cars do everything, I want the roads safer because the drivers know what the fuck they're doing. A good driver can put 200,000 miles on a '57 Chevy and not hit anything. A bad driver can't go 20 miles without hitting anything despite the driver's aids. I want to share the roadways with the former, fuck the latter.

UR AFRAID OF DA FUTURE Please don't start trying to riot the moment smart prosthetics come out (Deus Ex reference)

theres a difference between being afraid of the future and not wanting to be a lazy ass pansy See also: power folding mirrors, heated seats etc

[QUOTE=Second-gear-of-mgear;34886865]UR AFRAID OF DA FUTURE Please don't start trying to riot the moment smart prosthetics come out (Deus Ex reference)[/QUOTE] I'm not afraid of the future at all. I'm afraid of dumb-fuck bimbos that don't know how to fucking drive exceeding the limits of their stability management and hitting me six times harder than they would have without the stability management. [editline]27th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Concur;34887094]theres a difference between being afraid of the future and not wanting to be a lazy ass pansy See also: power folding mirrors, heated seats etc[/QUOTE] Hey now, heated seats aren't for the lazy. That's a creature comfort that I wouldn't mind retrofitting. Wouldn't mind power folding mirrors either, but that's just because it's hard to get my fingers around mine from inside the truck when they're folded in.

nyah, just sit your wallet on the stove in the morning, then place the nice warm square into your back pocket. insta warm seat.

[QUOTE=Concur;34889362]nyah, just sit your wallet on the stove in the morning, then place the nice warm square into your back pocket. insta warm seat.[/QUOTE] I don't carry my wallet. The only thing in it is my driver's license and I leave it stuffed into my ashtray just so I won't lose it. Even when I do actually carry it I don't use my back pocket, too much of a hassle to dig it back out again.

waffle iron

[QUOTE=TestECull;34884606] Huh? I still don't know why you're saying you use an E85 map without using E85. The curves aren't set for gasoline, may very well be damaging something. [/QUOTE] I never clarified the contents of my fuel tank, but use your best judgement :v

If an E85 station ever opens near here I'm going to put together a boosted E85 D setup, but for now I'll stick to 93 unleaded. :( Used to be able to get 104-110 octane from a local at the track by the barrel. But the track closed down. I'm not set up for that kind of go juice anyways, 93 is plenty bang for how little boost I run.

Drive By Wire is a really cool thing. In my dad's G8 GXP, if you drove in sport mode and downshifted, it would increase the throttle so it wouldn't jerk the rear wheels, whether or not you had your foot on the throttle. My mom's 06 silverado crew cab also has drive by wire, since it has an LS-1 in it. My dad also flashed the control unit so it has instant response. Still has too little power for the bigass truck, but atleast it's instant power.

[QUOTE=TestECull;34889062]I'm not afraid of the future at all. I'm afraid of dumb-fuck bimbos that don't know how to fucking drive exceeding the limits of their stability management and hitting me six times harder than they would have without the stability management. [/QUOTE] No, without the stability management you both probably would have died. Are you refusing to look at the facts that they actually do work?

[QUOTE=Second-gear-of-mgear;34898120]No, without the stability management you both probably would have died. Are you refusing to look at the facts that they actually do work?[/QUOTE] Yes, yes he is. This is TestECull for you.

it's not like the lack of computerized intervention will somehow grant people the skills they need to NOT SUCK AT DRIVING watching an old u-haul rental truck lock it's tires in your rear view isn't fun, thankfully I was first at the stoplight [editline]27th February 2012[/editline] hey teste how bout dem teslaz

[QUOTE=Second-gear-of-mgear;34898120]No, without the stability management you both probably would have died. Are you refusing to look at the facts that they actually do work?[/QUOTE] You're refusing to acknowledge that people too dumb to be driving are exceeding the limitations of these systems and hitting things harder than they would have normally.

yes we get it cars are faster nowadays go complain about how the speed limit isn't 55 anymore SO HOW BOUT DEM LAGGY THROTTLES

Fuck laggy throttles