• Brainwashing Norway "Gender equality" Documentary
    96 replies, posted
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42555664]Nobody is looking to [B]force [/B]a 50/50 gender split in every profession, but the mindset is that in a society where genders are equal[B] most professions should be somewhere around those numbers[/B] - because why not? For example what biological reason is there that so few women are in the gaming industry while nearly half of those who play games are women?[/QUOTE] Wow, so you're just gonna use a different word for it and it's gonna be somehow different? What biological reason is there to impose 50/50 split in every profession? Who are you to tell people how they should live their lives? What makes you better than a person who thinks that women should stay at home and take care of the house and children while men should be the only ones having a job? Why the fuck not just let people live their lives as they see fit themselves?
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42555717]Wow, so you're just gonna use a different word for it and it's gonna be somehow different? What biological reason is there to impose 50/50 split in every profession? [/quote] This is why I'm saying you're strawmanning. Gender ratios are going to be different, yes. But when it's more than a ten percent variation...
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42555957]This is why I'm saying you're strawmanning. Gender ratios are going to be different, yes. But when it's more than a ten percent variation...[/QUOTE] Haha "that's where you are strawmaning" and then you say that if it's not almost a 50/50 split it's sexism and it should be fixed to be closer to 50/50.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42555717]Wow, so you're just gonna use a different word for it and it's gonna be somehow different? What biological reason is there to impose 50/50 split in every profession? Who are you to tell people how they should live their lives? What makes you better than a person who thinks that women should stay at home and take care of the house and children while men should be the only ones having a job? Why the fuck not just let people live their lives as they see fit themselves?[/QUOTE] Who says I'm not letting those who want to stay home and take care of the house do just that? I'm not trying to force those to do something else. What I want to do is change society so that women don't grow up thinking it's their role to stay at home - how is that forcing anyone to do anything?
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42556007]Haha "that's where you are strawmaning" and then you say that if it's not almost a 50/50 split it's sexism and it should be fixed to be closer to 50/50.[/QUOTE] If it's more than a small difference, then something is up.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42556040]Who says I'm not letting those who want to stay home and take care of the house do just that? I'm not trying to force those to do something else. What I want to do is change society so that women don't grow up thinking it's their role to stay at home - how is that forcing anyone to do anything?[/QUOTE] First of all, I think you've misread what I've said. I'm arguing for getting rid of gender roles and letting people choose to do what they want, instead of trying to impose either 50/50 split or imposing that women should do only women's jobs and men should only do men's jobs. Second you said that those numbers [B]should [/B]be close to 50/50. [QUOTE=MrJazzy;42555664]in a society where genders are equal most professions should be somewhere around those numbers (50/50)[/QUOTE] But I might have misinterpreted. "Should be" as in, you anticipate they will be like that in a gender-role-less society or will you try to argue that if it's "more than a ten percent variation" then "then something is up", and we should take action to bring them closer to 50/50 because that's the only right way? [editline]17th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42556104]If it's more than a small difference, then something is up.[/QUOTE] First, how is that exaggerating your point if in the same post you make the same exact argument? Do you know what strawman is? Second, why won't you just let people do the jobs they want? Why do you have a problem with the fact that [I]POSSIBLY[/I] there's going to be a difference in man:woman ratio in certain jobs even in a gender-role-less society? Why do you assume that it HAS TO BE SEXISM. Why is it unacceptable to you that maybe men and women are not exactly the same, and might have find different jobs more interesting? Why is diversity so scary to you?
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42556141]First of all, I think you've misread what I've said. I'm arguing for getting rid of gender roles and letting people choose to do what they want.[/quote] Guess how you achieve this? By making so women will be actually considered and not be hectored to the point of giving up because they can't stand the shit any more. Meeting these requirements is something tech is failing at.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42556189]Guess how you achieve this? By making so women will be actually considered and not be hectored to the point of giving up because they can't stand the shit any more. Meeting these requirements is something tech is failing at.[/QUOTE] Who are you arguing against here because pretty much in every my post I've said that I disagree with people imposing how other people should live their lives? Do you even read what you reply to? And good job at quoting 1/5th of my post and pretending that it's the only thing I've said.
Many professions have closer to the 1:1 ratio. Engineers and nurses are just the opposite ends. And did you actually even watch the documentery?
[QUOTE=oskutin;42556267]Many professions have closer to the 1:1 ratio. Engineers and nurses are just the opposite ends. And did you actually even watch the documentery?[/QUOTE] When it starts with 'equality' in scarequotes and has 'political brainwashing' in the same sentence... It's like seeing 'moon landing' in scarequotes. Chances are, it's rubbish.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42556141]First of all, I think you've misread what I've said. I'm arguing for getting rid of gender roles and letting people choose to do what they want, instead of trying to impose either 50/50 split or imposing that women should do only women's jobs and men should only do men's jobs. Second you said that those numbers [B]should [/B]be close to 50/50. But I might have misinterpreted. "Should be" as in, you anticipate they will be like that in a gender-role-less society or will you try to argue that if it's "more than a ten percent variation" then "then something is up", and we should take action to bring them closer to 50/50 because that's the only right way?[/QUOTE] Yeah I'm not saying we should take direct action to bring them closer to 50/50, change society first and then I anticipate that the jobs will even out between the genders. But if for example there is a big gap in the ratio between genders in a certain profession then I think it should be examined so it can be determined why that gap is there and then adressed if necessary.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42556761]When it starts with 'equality' in scarequotes and has 'political brainwashing' in the same sentence... It's like seeing 'moon landing' in scarequotes. Chances are, it's rubbish.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]brain·wash·ing 1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs. 2. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/brainwashing"]http://www.thefreedictionary.com/brainwashing[/URL] When you try to pass out opinions like "Men and women are the same therefore we should act the same" as facts and labelling anyone who disagress with you, in order to change public opinion, I'd have to agree with the title. [editline]17th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=MrJazzy;42556869]Yeah I'm not saying we should take direct action to bring them closer to 50/50, change society first and then I anticipate that the jobs will even out between the genders. But if for example there is a big gap in the ratio between genders in a certain profession then I think it should be examined so it can be determined why that gap is there and then adressed if necessary.[/QUOTE] Maybe, people just aren't naturally intrested in doing those jobs and would rather do something that suits them better and they'd be happier doing? I'm all for doing what ever the hell you like but I think this is looking too much into things, if people are convinced they want ,THIS job and nothing else will satisfy them, good on them work hard be happy, make money, live your life. What I'm getting at here, is if people really want X or Y job then they will work hard to get it, in a modern society the only real thing stopping you from getting a job is your qualifications.
[QUOTE=Rockeiro123;42556903]Maybe, people just aren't naturally intrested in doing those jobs and would rather do something that suits them better and they'd be happier doing? I'm all for doing what ever the hell you like but I think this is looking too much into things, if people are convinced they want ,THIS job and nothing else will satisfy them, good on them work hard be happy, make money, live your life. What I'm getting at here, is if people really want X or Y job then they will work hard to get it, in a modern society the only real thing stopping you from getting a job is your qualifications.[/QUOTE] "Naturally interested" as in what, born interested in something or what exactly does that mean? The reason for why you're interested in something is probably not because you were born a certain gender but raised as a certain gender. The reason for why you have certain interests and job-ambitions is probably because of how you grew up - now I'm not saying you should not do what you want - but I'm saying that we should change what people want. Yes, not having enough women in certain industries and places is bad and I really shouldn't have to go into why. [editline]17th October 2013[/editline] Do you think men are born engineers and women are born nurses?
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42557072]"Naturally interested" as in what, born interested in something or what exactly does that mean? The reason for why you're interested in something is probably not because you were born a certain gender but raised as a certain gender. The reason for why you have certain interests and job-ambitions is probably because of how you grew up - now I'm not saying you should not do what you want - but I'm saying that we should change what people want. Yes, not having enough women in certain industries and places is bad and I really shouldn't have to go into why. [editline]17th October 2013[/editline] Do you think men are born engineers and women are born nurses?[/QUOTE] Watch the video and you'll get your answer EDIT: that was a bit rude, but in the video someone conducted a study on 1 day old babies and 9month babies and male babies were more inclined to mechanical objects while female babies were more inclined to face like objects. I found something on google. [URL="http://www.parentingscience.com/girl-toys-and-parenting.html"]http://www.parentingscience.com/girl-toys-and-parenting.html[/URL] Here's a quote. [QUOTE]As it turns out, the toys the kids requested for themselves were more likely to be gender-stereotyped (e.g., boys asked for “masculine” toys). When parents chose the toys, they tended to give gender-neutral gifts, like art supplies, musical instruments, and educational toys (Robinson and Morris 1986). [/QUOTE] I'm sure we can dig depper into this but the video has some nice points on this subject.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42556141]Why is it unacceptable to you that maybe men and women are not exactly the same, and might have find different jobs more interesting? Why is diversity so scary to you?[/QUOTE] [I]People[/I] aren't exactly the same. Saying "men and women are different and naturally like different interests/professions" basically means that men and women are distinct groups where all those members are all more like members of the same group than the members of the other group. It implies anyone who's interested in a profession that statistically less people with their gender do, or otherwise do something associated with the other gender, must be an outlier/different/odd/less of a woman or man, because this "difference" doesn't apply to them. It's anything but diversity, it's putting people into neat little boxes, and when people are put into boxes it's hard for them to break out of them. Yeah, there's statistically more men than in women in certain professions and vice versa, but I don't know why that's even relevant to the point where people consider certain jobs "masculine" or "feminine". It's like if there were statistically more white people becoming investment bankers, and therefore people said investment banking is a "Caucasian job". Or if there were more gay people becoming veterinarians, and therefore people said being a vet is a "homosexual job". It'd be silly, and I don't know why it suddenly becomes not-silly when it applies to gender instead of race or sexual orientation.
[QUOTE=Rockeiro123;42557131]Watch the video and you'll get your answer EDIT: that was a bit rude, but in the video someone conducted a study on 1 day old babies and 9month babies and male babies were more inclined to mechanical objects while female babies were more inclined to face like objects. I found something on google. [URL="http://www.parentingscience.com/girl-toys-and-parenting.html"]http://www.parentingscience.com/girl-toys-and-parenting.html[/URL] Here's a quote. I'm sure we can dig depper into this but the video has some nice points on this subject.[/QUOTE] Alright I won't deny the facts then, but this is exactly what I'm talking about - examine the gap and try to find a reason, if it's something like this then I guess there is nothing you can do, great, but then again I'll bring up the gaming industry as an example, considering almost 50% of gamers are female, wouldn't you agree that the industry should also be about 50% female?
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42558154]Alright I won't deny the facts then, but this is exactly what I'm talking about - examine the gap and try to find a reason, if it's something like this then I guess there is nothing you can do, great, but then again I'll bring up the gaming industry as an example, considering almost 50% of gamers are female, wouldn't you agree that the industry should also be about 50% female?[/QUOTE] The process of making games is very diferent from the process of playing games, it's a baseless comparison you don't need to have a programming background to enjoy a program, in the same way you don't need to have cinematography background to enjoy going to the cinema. it's a mute comparison.
[QUOTE=Rockeiro123;42556903][URL="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/brainwashing"]http://www.thefreedictionary.com/brainwashing[/URL] When you try to pass out opinions like "Men and women are the same therefore we should act the same" as facts and labelling anyone who disagress with you, in order to change public opinion, I'd have to agree with the title. [/quote] Dude, a quick look at google reveals that this is just foreign language biotruths by some 3rd-rate comedian trying to get ratings. I've seen enough biotruths bullshit that I can recognize this on sight.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42559374]Dude, a quick look at google reveals that this is just foreign language biotruths by some 3rd-rate comedian trying to get ratings. I've seen enough biotruths bullshit that I can recognize this on sight.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Rockeiro123;42557131] I found something on google. [URL="http://www.parentingscience.com/girl-toys-and-parenting.html"]http://www.parentingscience.com/girl-toys-and-parenting.html[/URL] Here's a quote: [QUOTE]As it turns out, the toys the kids requested for themselves were more likely to be gender-stereotyped (e.g., boys asked for “masculine” toys). When parents chose the toys, they tended to give gender-neutral gifts, like art supplies, musical instruments, and educational toys (Robinson and Morris 1986).[/QUOTE] I'm sure we can dig depper into this but the video has some nice points on this subject.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Tweevle;42557883][I]People[/I] aren't exactly the same. Saying "men and women are different and naturally like different interests/professions" basically means that men and women are distinct groups where all those members are all more like members of the same group than the members of the other group. It implies anyone who's interested in a profession that statistically less people with their gender do, or otherwise do something associated with the other gender, must be an outlier/different/odd/less of a woman or man, because this "difference" doesn't apply to them. It's anything but diversity, it's putting people into neat little boxes, and when people are put into boxes it's hard for them to break out of them.[/QUOTE] That's your logic. Not mine. It's not my fault that you would stereotype people if you had "boxes" in your head, so you choose to discard them completely. I have those categories and I don't demand from other people to fit into them. I don't think you are less of a woman if you do a job that women are generally less interested in. The diversity between individual women is larger than the average difference between men and women. Same goes for men. [QUOTE=Tweevle;42557883]Yeah, there's statistically more men than in women in certain professions and vice versa, but I don't know why that's even relevant to the point where people consider certain jobs "masculine" or "feminine". It's like if there were statistically more white people becoming investment bankers, and therefore people said investment banking is a "Caucasian job". Or if there were more gay people becoming veterinarians, and therefore people said being a vet is a "homosexual job". It'd be silly, and I don't know why it suddenly becomes not-silly when it applies to gender instead of race or sexual orientation.[/QUOTE] If 80% of veterinarians would be homosexual, then what the fuck would be so wrong with having "most veterinarians are homosexual" information in your head. Worded as you see fit. That's not a problem to anyone. The problem would start if you would tell homosexuals that they shouldn't be a doctor but a veterinarian instead and that heterosexuals should stay away from being a veterinarian. I don't judge individuals based on some average of the group they belong to and I don't demand from them to fit into that average. I can have information in my head saying most women this and most men that and at the same time don't demand people to fit into these. The notion that if you have those categories YOU MUST demand from other people to fit into them and think less of them if they don't, is YOUR logic, not mine. For me, a category like that is purely informational. It has no consequences. I'm not flaming you here or anything, I'm just trying to show you that our logic is different. Just because you would think less of a woman if she would do a job that women are less interested in if you had that category, doesn't mean I would too.
[QUOTE=Rockeiro123;42559492][/QUOTE] Oh, that again. That's a long and hoary old topic. Who markets which set of toys to which sex? And there's peer pressure from others of their own sex against those who don't conform, that's a big factor too.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42562980]Oh, that again. That's a long and hoary old topic. Who markets which set of toys to which sex? And there's peer pressure from others of their own sex against those who don't conform, that's a big factor too.[/QUOTE] Do 1 day old babies have peer pressure? Do 9 month olds?
[QUOTE=SoaringFallus;42543398]gender rights gay rights black rights you're all fucking morons should just be human rights everyone treated equally for everything fuck you and your gay group I don't give a shit no special privileges for anyone everyone the same across the board, should have been that way from the start, everywhere[/QUOTE] That is the biggest fucking cop-out argument in this context.
[QUOTE=kebab52;42564590]That is the biggest fucking cop-out argument in this context.[/QUOTE] Of all time. Also, incredibly fitting avatar for that post.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42564427]Do 1 day old babies have peer pressure? Do 9 month olds?[/QUOTE] It is useless Sil, he didn´t even watch the video. There is no point discussing with someone who just smacks all arguments with "BIOTRUTHS".
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;42564987]It is useless Sil, he didn´t even watch the video. There is no point discussing with someone who just smacks all arguments with "BIOTRUTHS".[/QUOTE] When the shoe fits, wear it. [editline]18th October 2013[/editline] Also, holly shit, that episode seven. Probable 'race realism' detected.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42565076]When the shoe fits, wear it. [editline]18th October 2013[/editline] Also, holly shit, that episode seven. Probable 'race realism' detected.[/QUOTE] You are not even adressing his point, all you do is dumbrating dumbrating dumbrating. How does a day old baby suffer from peer pressure?
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;42565222]You are not even adressing his point, all you do is dumbrating dumbrating dumbrating. How does a day old baby suffer from peer pressure?[/QUOTE] A day old baby shits out meconium (the stuff in the digestive tract during fetushood), drinks colostrum from it's mother and doesn't do much beyond that. It is not relevant to the point I made because it isn't developed enough to even notice the difference between a rattle and a GI joe.
I wish there was a version of this picture that was less shitty but: [IMG]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-C4Rgfow7y3M/UOgTiruzIBI/AAAAAAAAk_w/ljEo1Cz0sK4/w480-h404-no/531308_399350913484255_1184505947_n.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42565491]A day old baby shits out meconium (the stuff in the digestive tract during fetushood), drinks colostrum from it's mother and doesn't do much beyond that. It is not relevant to the point I made because it isn't developed enough to even notice the difference between a rattle and a GI joe.[/QUOTE] So how do you explain the situation that occured in the video? (which you obviously didn´t watch because you are prejudiced against anything that doesn´t fit your worldview)
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