[QUOTE=sp00ks;32395835]Why are you even posting in this thread when you don't want to discuss the issue?[/QUOTE]
I did make my views on abortion known in my first post on page 1 of this thread. My subsequent posts were just to show my position on philosophy versus science and how you might consider involving science in a moral debate if it is the right place to do so.
[QUOTE=BubonicCHG;32395912]Do not abort the baby. If you're not ready to take care of a child put the child up for adoption. I am pro choice. You have the choice to have sex or not to have sex. After that if you get pregnant you must carry through with the pregnancy. Abortion is murder.[/QUOTE]
Let's imagine what you just said made any sense:
Why is murder bad?
[editline]20th September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=ffffff-;32395917]I did make my views on abortion known in my first post on page 1 of this thread. My subsequent posts were just to show my position on philosophy versus science and how you might consider involving science in a moral debate if it is the right place to do so.[/QUOTE]
This is not the right place. Science can do nothing to change the fact that some people think it's wrong to terminate the pregnancy.
Here is why I opposed to abortion: It teaches irresponsibility, and ends the life of someone who could one day do something better than you did.
I don't care how you look at it, if you're killing babies you're killing potential geniuses, and killing people who could one day make a real difference. "Oh it's just a fetus." Big fucking deal. Until you have kids you don't have the first clue what that "fetus" means to you. It's easy for someone to say, "It's just underdeveloped tissue, what's the big deal?" Ask someone who has had a miscarriage, it means something.
Anyway, having abortions teaches people that everything that happens wrong can be "fixed." If you don't want to have kids, don't be fucking around. That's my whole thing. If you aren't ready to have kids, you better double-wrap that shit, she better be on birth control, or you better not be touching her at all.
I have a friend, got pregnant at 16, who had an abortion. She said she regrets it, and not a week goes by where she doesn't. Taking a life, even a potential human life, is wrong. Just because it's just some cells, just because it isn't developed and has no ability to make decisions, makes it murder no less.
If you don't want to have the kid, put it up for adoption. Quit being so fucking selfish, not wanting to ruin your body or deal with the pain of giving birth. You made the decision to fuck around, no deal with the consequences. It's like me shooting someone in the face, and not expecting to get into trouble. "I accidentally shot him." Too fucking bad, you were fucking around, deal with the consequences. Just because something is an accident, doesn't mean that the consequences should go away.
I think the choice remains with the girl : Does she want to abort it? Does she want to give birth but put it up for adoption so a couple who cannot have kids have a child to care for? Or does the girl want to take care of it either with a father / male figure or without one.
The choice remain's with the woman, she's the one having the baby in the first place.
[editline]20th September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=CrispexOps;32396306] You made the decision to fuck around.[/QUOTE]
But what if the woman was raped? What if this Woman was young too? Why should she be burdened by something that was forced upon her? She may want an abortion because the child won't have a real father or because she's not financially stable enough to have a child. Maybe she would want an abortion because she doesn't want to go through the hardship of being reminded everyday that she was raped which is a traumatizing in itself.
I'm pro abortion always. Babies cannot think or have any real cognition until they are like 1 or 2 years old.
[QUOTE=CrispexOps;32396306]Here is why I opposed to abortion: It teaches irresponsibility, and ends the life of someone who could one day do something better than you did.
I don't care how you look at it, if you're killing babies you're killing potential geniuses, and killing people who could one day make a real difference. [/QUOTE]
Or the fetus could end up becoming a mass murderer or fascist dictator. Worst argument ever.
It's so god damn easy for you to say that people should just accept what they did because you're a guy. This is never going to become a problem for you. You're telling other people what they should be able to do with their own bodies.
The argument that "IT'S A POTENTIAL HUMAN LIFE" really bothers me. An egg and sperm are a potential human life in exactly the same way. I don't understand how it all of a sudden being fertilized improves it's status as a cognitive being in any meaningful way. I don't want to live in a world where I am forced to make decisions based on random bad luck where it's easily avoidable. Life for life's sake doesn't mean shit and nobody has proved me otherwise, yet.
I don't think it should be up to anyone else than the mother to decide. I think it's unfair to ban something that could help someone else because it fits your opinion or belief. Of course, it does depend on the circumstances. For example, if a woman has been raped she should definitely not be forced to have that child just because you may believe it's wrong. If it's because a woman has been irresponsible and gotten pregnant, then I don't think it's appropriate to have an abortion.
I am pro-choice. Because, I feel that the mother can have the ultimate say. Whether its ethical or not.
[QUOTE=areolop;32396950]I an pro-choice. Because, I feel that the mother can have the ultimate say. Whether its ethical or not.[/QUOTE]
I think this is a better post than you even realise: people are forgetting that ultimately the mother is going to do what she decides is rational. Better for us to allow the killing of unborn babies in a sterilised, safe environment than for the woman to get it done in some weirdo's basement with a coat hanger and die from infection because that's ultimately what's going to happen when it's prohibited.
but baby jesus and texas and death penalty!!!!!!
[QUOTE=a dumb bear;32396914]If it's because a woman has been irresponsible and gotten pregnant, then I don't think it's appropriate to have an abortion.[/QUOTE]
So you believe that a mother who can barely support herself and gets pregent by accident should be made to have the baby? Consider how wretched an existence it would be for both the mother and child.
[QUOTE=Patriarch;32397200]So you believe that a mother who can barely support herself and gets pregent by accident should be made to have the baby? Consider how wretched an existence it would be for both the mother and child.[/QUOTE]
Fair point, I guess then that should be her decision only.
[QUOTE=Inufin;32394949]Might be cool for the child too. Imagine how nice its to find out how you are adopted when you are 15. Maybe find out who your mother is when you get 18. And then find out your dad is in jail for rape when you turn 20.
[/QUOTE]
It's a lot cooler to find out you were adopted then to not find out anything because you don't exist anymore.
[QUOTE=Caesar;32397410]It's a lot cooler to find out you were adopted then to not find out anything because you don't exist anymore.[/QUOTE]
Finding out you're adopted sucks.
If you're never born you won't find out you're adopted because you've never been adopted!
Horrible argument.
If you love life so much why don't you fuck everyone you can and get as many kids as you can. It's better to have shitty parents than to never have been born, right?
[QUOTE=sp00ks;32397480]Finding out you're adopted sucks.
If you're never born you won't find out you're adopted because you've never been adopted!
Horrible argument.
If you love life so much why don't you fuck everyone you can and get as many kids as you can. It's better to have shitty parents than to never have been born, right?[/QUOTE]
ehhh.. it can go both ways. Depends HIGHLY on one's definition of 'shitty parents'
[QUOTE=areolop;32397530]ehhh.. it can go both ways. Depends HIGHLY on one's definition of 'shitty parents'[/QUOTE]
Your mom had a kid with a random crazy dude and your dad is a random crazy dude.
Did the child make the mistake, or the parents.
Enough said.
Adoption, never abortion.
[QUOTE=BubonicCHG;32395912]Do not abort the baby. If you're not ready to take care of a child put the child up for adoption.[/QUOTE]
Unless the baby's lucky enough to quickly get adopted quickly then by putting it into care you're putting a huge financial drain on the state, and potentially sentencing the child to a quite poor childhood in a care home.
[QUOTE=BubonicCHG;32395912]Abortion is murder.[/quote]
I'm not going to say 'no you're wrong' since this is a matter of opinion, but I really don't see how you can justify to yourself the idea that killing a developing bundle of cells without even a nervous system and killing a functioning human being are in any way comparable.
I'm fine with it, but you should only really have one if:
1) Child has disability to can't take care of.
2) You were molested.
3) You're sure something will happen to you (like death) if you have the baby.
Other than that just don't have sex. Or better yet wear a condom.
[QUOTE=Suzune;32397610]I'm fine with it, but you should only really have one if:
1) Child has disability to can't take care of.
2) You were molested.
3) You're sure something will happen to you (like death) if you have the baby.
Other than that just don't have sex. Or better yet wear a condom.[/QUOTE]
You wont know if the child has a disability until you are WAY long down the road?
[QUOTE=Resfan;32397585]Did the child make the mistake, or the parents.
Enough said.
Adoption, never abortion.[/QUOTE]
Yep, more kids for an already overpopulated abortion system.
[QUOTE=ThisGuy0;32397586]Unless the baby's lucky enough to quickly get adopted quickly then by putting it into care you're putting a huge financial drain on the state, and potentially sentencing the child to a quite poor childhood in a care home.
I'm not going to say 'no you're wrong' since this is a matter of opinion, but I really don't see how you can justify to yourself the idea that killing a developing bundle of cells without even a nervous system and killing a functioning human being are in any way comparable.[/QUOTE]
[video=youtube;2bQG8v8kTGs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bQG8v8kTGs[/video]
Being given the chance to live is better than someone deciding that well, he might not grow up in a good foster home or might not live a good child hood, so lets just abort him before we can even see if these things happen.
[QUOTE=Resfan;32397585]Did the child make the mistake, or the parents.
Enough said.
Adoption, never abortion.[/QUOTE]
Should you decided what other people do with their bodies and small clusters of cells in said bodies?
Enough said.
Choice, never force.
[editline]20th September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Resfan;32397635]
Being given the chance to live is better than someone deciding that well, he might not grow up in a good foster home or might not live a good child hood, so lets just abort him before we can even see if these things happen.[/QUOTE]
This isn't even about what's best for the fetus (which is completely void of any kind of thought or emotion). This is about actually owning your own body.
[QUOTE=Caesar;32394735]I'm against it. It's illegal in Ireland at the moment too. If there was a referendum to legalise it, I would vote no.
I believe that it is murder. I understand that it can be traumatic for rape victims, but there is no reason why the baby cannot be put up for adoption if all else fails.[/QUOTE]
Sure just let the mother go through months of unwanted pregnancy and have her push an unwanted baby out through her vagina because she was sexually abused
[QUOTE=sp00ks;32397639]Should you decided what other people do with their bodies and small clusters of cells in said bodies?
Enough said.
Choice, never force.
[editline]20th September 2011[/editline]
This isn't even about what's best for the fetus (which is completely void of any kind of thought or emotion). This is about actually owning your own body.[/QUOTE]
So I guess your not a human and have no kind of emotion since you to were a fetus, and I guess its ok to murder would be children so you can fuck around all day long.
[QUOTE=Resfan;32397715]So I guess your not a human and have no kind of emotion since you to were a fetus, and I guess its ok to murder would be children so you can fuck around all day long.[/QUOTE]
I'd be okay to abort me when I was a fetus and had no emotions. I am no longer a fetus and I have emotions and complex social relations. There is a massive difference.
I don't say murder is wrong because human life is sacred for some arbitrary reason. I think murder is wrong because you're taking away everything from people. Their relationships, emotions, dreams, hopes, fears etc. A fetus has nothing. It is unable to think or feel anything. It doesn't know anyone and doesn't hope for anything. The mother, on the other hand, is capable of all of this. I think we should take care of the being capable of thinking and feeling before we take care of a brainless blob of tissue.
[QUOTE=Resfan;32397715]So I guess your not a human and have no kind of emotion since you to were a fetus, and I guess its ok to murder would be children so you can fuck around all day long.[/QUOTE]
Key quote being 'would be children.' You can't equate potential human life to actual human life.
I'm pro-choice, and for a couple of reasons.
1) In a society where abortions are illegal, a woman would be raped and forced to have the child against her own will.
2) If a teenager makes a mistake she doesn't have to pay a massive price for it.
In my opinion it should stay legal. No matter what. I think abortion is sort of an action that is frowned upon (even by me and I'm pro-choice) but everyone deserves rights and choices.
[QUOTE=sp00ks;32397811]I'd be okay to abort me when I was a fetus and had no emotions. I am no longer a fetus and I have emotions and complex social relations. There is a massive difference.
I don't say murder is wrong because human life is sacred for some arbitrary reason. I think murder is wrong because you're taking away everything from people. Their relationships, emotions, dreams, hopes, fears etc. A fetus has nothing. It is unable to think or feel anything. It doesn't know anyone and doesn't hope for anything. The mother, on the other hand, is capable of all of this. I think we should take care of the being capable of thinking and feeling before we take care of a brainless blob of tissue.[/QUOTE]
The "brainless blob" is going to be a human in 9 short months and you are stripping away any chance he/she will get to have these all important relationships you talk about just so the mother doesn't have to deal with the consequences of having unprotected sex.
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