Do you think America is doomed, or that it hit a bump in it's progression as a nation? - General

It's only doomed if people keep acting like it's doomed.

You people think this shit is bad? We're one of the few nations that have had their capitol city razed and burned and come back as a world power less than a century later.

america's not doomed its just on the downfall, same as the Spanish, the British, and the soviets your loosing grip on your economy. And in 20-50 years time the worlds "superpowers" will be the likes of India and china.

[QUOTE=james0724;33947425]america's not doomed its just on the downfall, same as the Spanish, the British, and the soviets your loosing grip on your economy. And in 20-50 years time the worlds "superpowers" will be the likes of India and china.[/QUOTE] China [b]is[/b] a superpower.

[QUOTE=TheChantzGuy;33938835]fuck you [editline]28th December 2011[/editline] america isnt a democracy[/QUOTE] :frog: [highlight](User was banned for this post ("This isn't how you debate" - Swebonny))[/highlight]

America, if it continues to go along the path it is on, is doomed. It is time for our government, and our people to change. Our government is inept, and incapable of affecting any positive thing to happen for our country, and our people are bereft and distracted by materialism and sloth. Nobody wants to work hard, or put effort into anything, they just want to get rich quick with no work. That's why america is declining. But I'll be damned if something happens to America. I won't let it turn into a police state or further degrade itself. It's time we buckle down and work hard for our nation.

If America really was doomed for ultimate collapse every time people said it was, we'd be on our fortieth government at this point.

[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;33948114]China [b]is[/b] a superpower.[/QUOTE] Not at all. Its economy is preparing for a crash and it has been found they have been subtly changing the value of their dollar to match American currency, their military and civilian technology is in a dumpster and the whole place is a human rights massacre.

[QUOTE=ThePinkPanzer;33956602]Not at all. Its economy is preparing for a crash and it has been found they have been subtly changing the value of their dollar to match American currency, their military and civilian technology is in a dumpster and the whole place is a human rights massacre.[/QUOTE] Wow, you sure are looking at news and facts with a critical eye. No, its economy is not preparing or going for a crash. Yes, it's not a super power, and yes it has severe human rights issues. No there has been no "massacre" going on. No their military and civilian technology is not in a dumpster. No they don't use dollar. No they are not trying to make their currency equal to the US dollar.They have been undervaluing their currency. I don't know if I even want to continue my post after all your weird assumption. [editline]30th December 2011[/editline] And to answer the OP. No I don't believe USA is going to "fall" or anything similarly stupid. Let me ask a question in return. How many successful nations have failed due to their own incompetence in handling their economy/politician?

[QUOTE=Swebonny;33957511]Let me ask a question in return. How many successful nations have failed due to their own incompetence in handling their economy/politician?[/QUOTE] Rome.

[QUOTE=semite;33957730]Rome.[/QUOTE] That's a city. But I assume you meant the Roman Empire. Unfortunately USA isn't great enough to be called an empire. And the Roman Empire was no nation. I should have added "any nation in our modern history". [editline]30th December 2011[/editline] Not even Greece is collapsing even though their situation is literary shit. Of course they get a lot of aid, which USA also will get if they really get down on their knees, which I doubt it will happen in a long while.

[QUOTE=Swebonny;33957511]Wow, you sure are looking at news and facts with a critical eye. No, its economy is not preparing or going for a crash. Yes, it's not a super power, and yes it has severe human rights issues. No there has been no "massacre" going on. No their military and civilian technology is not in a dumpster. No they don't use dollar. No they are not trying to make their currency equal to the US dollar.They have been undervaluing their currency. I don't know if I even want to continue my post after all your weird assumption. [editline]30th December 2011[/editline] And to answer the OP. No I don't believe USA is going to "fall" or anything similarly stupid. Let me ask a question in return. How many successful nations have failed due to their own incompetence in handling their economy/politician?[/QUOTE] When all of these workers grow old and need the government to support them, they are looking at a crash. The massacre was just saying how bad the civil rights issue is there, I apologize for the wording. The military uses technology mostly from the seventies, their air force is a joke and their navy is hardly better.

[QUOTE=Swebonny;33957784]That's a city. But I assume you meant the Roman Empire.[/quote] Yes... [quote]Unfortunately USA isn't great enough to be called an empire.[/quote] Not when we have troops stationed in military bases all over the world along with an aggressive interventionist foreign policy. [quote]Not even Greece is collapsing even though their situation is literary shit.[/QUOTE] Greece is collapsing partly due to the size of government there. A majority of their citizens held government jobs and received a ridiculous amount of entitlements and benefits. To think that this wouldn't cause serious financial consequences would be naive.

[QUOTE=ThePinkPanzer;33958398]When all of these workers grow old and need the government to support them, they are looking at a crash. The massacre was just saying how bad the civil rights issue is there, I apologize for the wording. The military uses technology mostly from the seventies, their air force is a joke and their navy is hardly better.[/QUOTE] Ah, now I understand you much better. I still don't think that China as a nation will crash due to the aging population. It most likely would halt the economic growth a lot. Mostly 70s is perhaps a stretch, but yes they have equipment from that era. But they are modernizing their army and navy fast. Although it doesn't seem that PLA wants to compete with USA, but only to gain dominance/military advantage over Asia. Sorry for going off topic :v:

[QUOTE=Swebonny;33957511] Yes, it's not a super power[/QUOTE] How could China not be considered a super-power if Russia is? China's military potential is not far behind that of Russia's and their economic standing just dominates that of Russia's. Sure they are not very well off in the GINI index and they couldn't be considered part of the developed world (first world) but in my opinion they sure as hell can be considered a super-power. I mean China is pegged to beat America's GDP (GNP) in 2015 and by god if you don't consider it atleast [b]a[/b] if not #2 by then I think you should reconsider your fanatical patriotism. I suppose, living in Australia, China is a much more prominent part of our social, political and economic climate so it would be fair to say that from Australia's standpoint we would consider China [b]and[/b] India as world super-powers even though most of you European nations don't which I think is a beautiful irony because over the past 3 years China has increased direct investment into Europe (In the form of buying companies, especially resource magnates in oil and gas) by a little over 300%. [QUOTE=Swebonny;33957511]They have been undervaluing their currency.[/QUOTE] You are absolutely right, by the most conservative estimates in Australia and the US it is predicted to be [b]at least[/b] 20% undervalued but is considered to be as high as 35% undervalued. For those here that are not economics majors the reason China undervalues their currency is so that they are ALOT more competitive in international markets which has allowed them to grow their manufacturing industries at huge rates. The other primary reasons they undervalue their currency is because of the money the US government owes them would (NET/NET) decrease if they had a higher exchange rate with the USD. Essentially what that means is that if they allowed their currency to float at its actual market value then the US government would actually pay back less money then if their currency was undervalued. The last reason that it is undervalued is to keep inflation under control. If the Renminbi (Yuan) was to appreciate to its real value it would make every single person in China with an income able to buy more with their income (based on the fact foreign trading is applied to the scenario). This would cause MASSIVE cost push inflation driving the prices of everything up higher and making them less competitive internationally. [QUOTE=Swebonny;33957511] And to answer the OP. No I don't believe USA is going to "fall" or anything similarly stupid. Let me ask a question in return. How many successful nations have failed due to their own incompetence in handling their economy/politician?[/QUOTE] The Soviet Union? Failed due to inequalities in the economic and social system which was created by green and the incompetence and mismanagement of the social, economic and political system. And they were pretty massive too. I don't know to be honest. If you give it time and America doesn't change it's attitudes it very well could be in trouble, it would be a collapse like no other that's for sure. That is of course if they don't discover a million new profitable industries in the next 25 years which America is great at doing. I'm thinking hydrogen powered vehicles, some new form of power generation, shitloads of medical breakthroughs and perhaps some space related stuff ( <--- I hope <3 ). [editline]edited[/editline] [QUOTE=Swebonny;33957511] Ah, now I understand you much better. I still don't think that China as a nation will crash due to the aging population. It most likely would halt the economic growth a lot. Mostly 70s is perhaps a stretch, but yes they have equipment from that era. But they are modernizing their army and navy fast. Although it doesn't seem that PLA wants to compete with USA, but only to gain dominance/military advantage over Asia. [/QUOTE] They are modernizing their entire armed forces very fast. The Chinese air force has several universities that are just dedicated to training engineers to build and develop new equipment. [IMG]http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2011/01/05/1225982/582518-j-20-composite.jpg[/IMG] That is just one of the many examples of Chinese military development. Need I mention their new Ex-Russian aircraft carrier they have recently finished reffitting for Chinese aircraft. [editline]edited:[/editline] To put Chinas ambitions into perspective this is a legitimate design they are considering building. [IMG]http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/Chinas-New-Concept-Aircraft-Carrier-07-2011.jpg[/IMG]

Russia has not been a super power since the cold war, do not know where you got that idea. Also, wow an ex Russian aircraft carrier, we have what? Eleven American built ones?

[QUOTE=semite;33957730]Rome.[/QUOTE] There are tons of different ideas as to why the Western Roman Empire declined, it's far from being as simple as a handful of incompetent politicians running the show. The decline also took place over hundreds of years, not because of a single economic recession like ours that began 3 years ago. They also dealt with issues we don't have, like constant civil wars between factions destroying them from the inside and the population being completely ravaged by disease. So I honestly don't think you can compare America's situation today to what Rome went through.

[QUOTE=ThePinkPanzer;33960286]Russia has not been a super power since the cold war, do not know where you got that idea. Also, wow an ex Russian aircraft carrier, we have what? Eleven American built ones?[/QUOTE] That doesn't matter for shit, think about it. If China were to go head to head with the US it would be a nuclear cluster-fuck before your 11 "American built ones" get anywhere near China. My point was that China clearly has ambitions in modernising its armed forces to compete with America. India and China are the only countries in the world trying to push into the Nimitz sized aircraft carriers, the rest (with the exception of the US) are scaling back to the ski jump design and so it doesn't matter weather or not America has 11 because China can afford to build 11, they just don't have the ABILITY or the NEED to do it. They might have the DESIRE to which would lead to them building them over the next few decades etc. America isn't going to build anymore, lets face that. They will upgrade their existing ones sure but they were built during the cold war with Russia which is decades past. Sure if there is a new China/America(/India) cold war America might want to build more but hey, they cant afford to. I don't mean to sound really rude here but its the very short sightedness that is dragging your country down at the momment. China has been thinking long term for nearly a fucking century and look at how great a position they are in. They don't let a days trading in a stock market determine the entire national attitude, they have planned for the future and met almost all their goals. That is what makes China such a huge player and that's whats making India massive aswell. (I realise i've lost ALL grammar and structure in this rant). yeah I probably forgot a lot of shit in this and much of my argument is probably poorly explained and aggressive so I apologise for that, it's just that I get so heated in this debate when the same short-sighted pisshead rebuttals are thrown in like they carry weight or at least slightly thought over.

[QUOTE=semite;33957730]Rome.[/QUOTE] Rome got invaded though, didn't they?

Im not an expert, but i think if we want to come back, we must invade China. Jk...for now. But seriously, we need to become a marketable economy again, and export more than we import. That's pretty much how we got into this state, by paying everyone else(China) to do stuff for us. We were also like the World Police, which was fine and all, but we wasted so many resources. I think we should leave the rest of the world alone for now and focus on our own problems. That means not going to Haiti or somewhere else when there's a flood to spend billions to help them. However, we are still one of the highest countries in terms of living conditions, so I don't think we'll descend into chaos or the "doomed" state for a while. It will take a long time, but i think we'll recover.

I think that the times ahead will be really rough, perhaps even rougher than the Depression, etcetera. Let's face it, the government is corrupt and fucked. Gridlocking and arguing seems to be all that gets done there. The Republicans and the Democrats can never seem to get anything done. What is even worse (at least I believe so), is the general populace. People are scoffing at the Occupy protests, and although some parts of the Occupy protests are a bit messed up they are protesting for a fairly legitimate cause. My personal opinion is that the American populace is a bit drunk with, well, the American Dream. It seems that a lot of people think that: "Oh, well we're America, we're the top dog, everything will be alright in a few years", when in fact that if a few important things don't change, there is a good chance that it WON'T be alright. America isn't the only major superpower right now. The BRIC's are rising, and if America can't change to adapt to themselves not being a hyperpower then, well, bad things will happen. I would talk about what I personally think we have to do to adapt, but my reasons are a bit bare and not well thought-out.

America is doomed Will not be surprised if there is a civil war or something else in the next few years.

Corporations/banks have the major power in America and are above the government itself So are bi/millionaires.Government itself is affected heavily by religion,therefore favors Christianity and puts rights of others behind.Tax rate is ridiculously unfair against middle income and the poor,whom end up getting poorer while the rich keep getting richer.So yes, America is slowly,but surely unleashing doom on itself.

[QUOTE=wizard`;33959994]post[/QUOTE] Your post was a great read. I wish more posts in here was like that. Very interesting picture of the concept carrier. But I'm always thinking that a superpower has the ability to project their power greatly over the whole globe. Right now China doesn't have that ability. But that's going to change for sure. And Soviet was a good example that I didn't think of.

[QUOTE=Swebonny;33963572]Your post was a great read. I wish more posts in here was like that. Very interesting picture of the concept carrier. But I'm always thinking that a superpower has the ability to project their power greatly over the whole globe. Right now China doesn't have that ability. But that's going to change for sure. And Soviet was a good example that I didn't think of.[/QUOTE] Again you are on the money with that post. By most people definition of a super-power that is exactly correct and you wouldn't normally consider China a super-power. There is a good reason why I don't agree with this definition at least in the case of China. China technically does assert its economic, military and political power over a lot of the world. Directly speaking they projected their power over places like North Korea, Vietnam, Tibet, Mongolia (Mostly trying to keep the Russians at bay), Syria and Iran over the past few decades. In respect to the rest of their world China's world carries a lot more weight then It used to in both strategic and economic discourse (it varies by country, EG in Australia what China says has huge sway, by the same token what the USA says also carries a lot of weight.). What I find most interesting is the relationship between China and India. Historically they have not been 'friends' since China adopted communism due to India being part of the British Commonwealth and strongly tied to Europe and America. They have had HUGE border tensions since China invaded Tibet way-back-when (1950). This meant that China and India actually shared a border and the military build up on the border was to the scale and rate of the Russia/USA cold war in the North Atlantic. India has also always been a keen supporter of Vietnam in its fight against Chinese influence and dominance. - China and India are still not friends: [url]http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/09/19/is-this-how-wars-start-india-and-china-now-feud-over-the-south-china-sea/[/url] - India is also looking forward to the future: (the same as China) [url]http://defensetech.org/2008/06/10/indias-navy-expanding-rapidly/[/url] - Bit more info on the China / India economic situation: [url]http://www.economist.com/node/16846256[/url] The reason I would not yet consider India as a full blown super-power is because of traditional reason. They are at the economic level but they have nowhere near the required political and military influence required, but (as is the case with China) they are getting damn close.

I don't know about doomed, but waning. A corporate death grip combined with an ineffective two party system that seems to prefer landing blows on the other party rather than helping the country is lending to a great deal of damage which I don't see going away any time soon.

[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;33930992]No, we're not doomed at all. If politicians would stop being slaves to their party, money, and ideologies, they might be able to put us on the right track to solving our problems.[/QUOTE] There's your problem. [editline]31st December 2011[/editline] And yes, America is on it's way out and the way they've started treating public dissent makes me feel the last coming years are going to be very ugly ones.

[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;33930992]No, we're not doomed at all. If politicians would stop being slaves to their party, money, and ideologies, they might be able to put us on the right track to solving our problems.[/QUOTE] Then they would cease to be politicians, without ideologies, money and political parties politics would be so drastically different that it could scarcely be called 'politics' anymore. Not saying it would be a bad thing but as a general rule politicians spend most of their time pursuing their ideological goals and agreeing with their party. The responsible running of a country usually takes the back seat to personal ambition. Of course there are exceptions but from my observation this is how most politicians operate. If they really thought things out in the best interests of the people they represent and presented their ideas and findings in a reasonable manner there would be no need for the rhetoric and spin that has defined politics for millenia.

We've been in even worse trouble than now so I don't see why we couldn't get back up again later.

Ron Paul knows his shite [video=youtube;Ao461iG9UsA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao461iG9UsA[/video] I think that The US should really re-think by the time of the next elections. I mean, the economy was great when Clinton was in charge and Bush shredded it to pieces. And when Obama was elected (and i do think he wanted to change stuff) he saw what a bad situation the US was in and had no clue what to do. Edit: As a matter of fact I don't think Obama was qualified at all for the position as president. And with the ongoing chinese military arming and Irans retarded swinging of dicks in the persian sea, the US could really need some change of parlament.