Do you think America is doomed, or that it hit a bump in it's progression as a nation? - General

[QUOTE=Hayburner;35148058]i just posted some of it... searching on your own will also help. [url]http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/ok.php[/url] presents a few interesting points, no? cue you try to dismiss that source... this will prove my point considering the gulf of tonkin, operation northwoods, the warren commission (headed by a former bank CEO after JFK signed EO11110, hmm...), the iran contra scandal, CIA causing the crack epidemic, iran coup d'etat of 1953, operation fast and furious, the "wmds" in iraq, all the horrible dictators we propped up and funded, COINTELPRO, NDAA, bobby hutton, bradley manning, KONY2012, the fact that we are "protecting" opium fields in afghanistan, waco... just to name a few is your government so great after all?[/QUOTE] Oh man, are you gonna start ranting about how much the US Gov has planned and plotted behind the scenes to change the course of history, and subject the people of the world to known and unknown horrors just for cash and oil? Are you going to finish your tirade against the US by calling your opponents "sheeple" and urging Americans to wake up? I'll tell you, its old. It really is old. I've constantly argued against people like you who insist that our support for dictators in SA during the cold war were more than methods used to counter the soviets, that our (and various nations) intelligence services knew there were no WMDs in Iraq, that the US gov. is working with the cartels, that the CIA is responsible for a whole host of global and national issues, that we paid for bin laden's kidney treatment (and funded the Taliban), that the US gov wants to go into africa, that all our overseas wars are for oil, that FEMA is setting up camps, and so on and so on. I call this demonizing America. You pervertedly call it the "truth". You could not be more wrong. By the way, Alex Jones is my favorite comedian. Lets say you're right with one thing. Let's say you're right that WTC 7 was demolished. The government comes out and admits it. You know what would happen? Nothing. The building was evacuated, no one was inside. The building was heavily damaged by fallen debris, and a danger to all the rescue workers around it. The building's owner (Larry Silverstein) even told NY authorities that the building was a safety risk, and agreed that firefighters should allow the building to collapse. P.S. Your precious "thermite dust" is pulverized drywall. Thermite leaves behind sulfur residue. So does pulverized drywall. Which one is more likely? [url]http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm[/url]

My god hay maker is fucked up in the head.

[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35159239]My god hay maker is fucked up in the head.[/QUOTE] Some of his first posts were screaming at me that Oswald was frame for shooting JFK by the CIA.

I like his logic "insult me, go on a long winded rant that has nothing to do with the actual issue, ignore my points, get angsty when I insult him because it's only okay if he does it, then ignore me" Am I missing something or is he actually a complete idiot?

[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;35148239]Sorry, I couldn't get past this [img]http://scrd.sitescout.netdna-cdn.com/wrh-diabetes-5431c17.gif[/img] The batshit was a bit too overwhelming.[/QUOTE] I peed a little.

[QUOTE=StephenOrlov;34640980]That's not true. High school graduate 87.14% Some college 55.90% Associate's and/or Bachelor's degree 39.06% Bachelor's degree 29.93% Master's degree 7.60% Doctorate or professional degree 2.93% 40% of people in the United States age 25 and over have at least their bachelors degree. How is that "most" of people being born into simple/stupid families? That's just sort of absurd for you to generalize like that.[/QUOTE] Having a "Degree" doesn't make somebody smart. That just means that you spent the money to go to an outdated system that is breaking down like the US. Im somewhat of a Free Market Anarcho-Republi-Communist that hates the governent. In response to Panz3rfaust, the Reserve told Congress to stop, but they refused, and instead implemented a 1000+ page bill that nobody read, same for the IRS tax code, which is in excess of 10,000 pages. Im sorry but the America as we know it will fall due to its inability to control debt and corruption. Remember though, its not Congress that will pay for it, most of the members are 50+ in age and the teenagers of now, which are just are lazy as Congress will have to find some obscure way to pay. Im guessing default on International loans in less than 5 years. Also, you should know that yes, the Middle East wars are being fought for Oil. America uses the most in the world, and unless Congress can find a scrapegoat or something to keep the population tame, their power will fade like paint. (a couple years =3) Also, if you deny that the goverment cant wisk you away, your fucking wrong. Remember, they want you to be ignorant. War is peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is strength. The best you can do is protest. I for one, say that the existing system is broken, and lobbying should be illegal. Privacy for government officials should not exist and they should be payed the average middle class wage. No matter what, their power stems from the people in the shadows. You, everybody and me are all to blame for this. We vote them in, support them at rallies and pay the taxes. Go ahead, blame it on Obama, or whoever you think made it, but the Strawmen you see, are still puppets to puppets. CEOs are strawmen too, and are often scrapegoats. The real corperate chess-master is the Board of Directors, which in turn are controlled by others, like investors that happen to be -shocker/spoiler- ordinary people.

[QUOTE=Mr_WOBBLeS;35170576]Having a "Degree" doesn't make somebody smart. That just means that you spent the money to go to an outdated system that is breaking down like the US. Im somewhat of a Free Market Anarcho-Republi-Communist that hates the governent. In response to Panz3rfaust, the Reserve told Congress to stop, but they refused, and instead implemented a 1000+ page bill that nobody read, same for the IRS tax code, which is in excess of 10,000 pages. Im sorry but the America as we know it will fall due to its inability to control debt and corruption. Remember though, its not Congress that will pay for it, most of the members are 50+ in age and the teenagers of now, which are just are lazy as Congress will have to find some obscure way to pay. Im guessing default on International loans in less than 5 years. Also, you should know that yes, the Middle East wars are being fought for Oil. America uses the most in the world, and unless Congress can find a scrapegoat or something to keep the population tame, their power will fade like paint. (a couple years =3) Also, if you deny that the goverment cant wisk you away, your fucking wrong. Remember, they want you to be ignorant. War is peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is strength. The best you can do is protest. I for one, say that the existing system is broken, and lobbying should be illegal. Privacy for government officials should not exist and they should be payed the average middle class wage. No matter what, their power stems from the people in the shadows. You, everybody and me are all to blame for this. We vote them in, support them at rallies and pay the taxes. Go ahead, blame it on Obama, or whoever you think made it, but the Strawmen you see, are still puppets to puppets. CEOs are strawmen too, and are often scrapegoats. The real corperate chess-master is the Board of Directors, which in turn are controlled by others, like investors that happen to be -shocker/spoiler- ordinary people.[/QUOTE] Here we go again.

May I bring up statistics that will always present "If you have no credentials" then you are worth shit to the job market. Sure people have started there own companys, and made millions yet you dont understand that they were "SMART" and usually from a "RICH" family although those aren't really a count of course some people who werent in the "RICH" category made millions, but the majority of people who drop out of high school let alone college usually end up as jobless wreaks who rely on welfare to survive. So my advice to you my fellow americans, is to do what you're parents told you to do "STAY IN SCHOOL".

Yeah. Stay in school. Become mindless sheep. Go the f*ck ahead. I won't defend a system that encourages the wasteful spending of money on "higher learning" when you could go to say, a trade school where you can be useful in nearly any country. Lets see how handy my Welding/Carpentry skills are compared to your law degree in a 2nd-3rd world country, which is where America is going. And as flash says, [QUOTE]May I bring up statistics that will always present "If you have no credentials" then you are worth shit to the job market. Sure people have started there own companys, and made millions yet you dont understand that they were "SMART" and usually from a "RICH" family although those aren't really a count of course some people who werent in the "RICH" category made millions, but the majority of people who drop out of high school let alone college usually end up as jobless wreaks who rely on welfare to survive. So my advice to you my fellow americans, is to do what you're parents told you to do "STAY IN SCHOOL". [/QUOTE] The job market as it is is broken, and when people see that college/university degrees are being handed out like candy for the fine price of 1-4 years and thousands to hundred thousands of dollars, they will turn around faster than Congress spends money (that they dont have) and the vicious cycle of the economy will continue until this happens again.

[QUOTE=Mr_WOBBLeS;35184032]Yeah. Stay in school. Become mindless sheep. Go the f*ck ahead. I won't defend a system that encourages the wasteful spending of money on "higher learning" when you could go to say, a trade school where you can be useful in nearly any country. Lets see how handy my Welding/Carpentry skills are compared to your law degree in a 2nd-3rd world country, which is where America is going.[/QUOTE] But we're not in a "2nd or 3rd world country" (which doesn't make sense anyway) though, we're in America which requires these professions.

[QUOTE=Pantz76;35184077]But we're not in a "2nd or 3rd world country" (which doesn't make sense anyway) though, we're in America which requires these professions.[/QUOTE] Are you mindless? What I was saying is that if everybody has a degree its the same as everybody without degrees. Most people are going to college to get the degree so they look better. You know what looks best? Somebody with EXPERIENCE so, somebody who was some sort of student under whatever profession with a few years (probably 2) in some community college (they're underrated) will be better than some BS rich kid who had "mommy and dad" pay for his drunk a$$ to lounge around college. You said (Pantz76) that "We're in America, which requires these professions" and so Im trying to say that if we continue to be ignorant of the rampant, rapid self-destruction we won't matter anyways and "these professions" will end up coming from humanitarian aid, not Americans.

When there are people like Newt Gingrich who are trying to become President, it certainly doesn't bode well for a nation.

[QUOTE=Mr_WOBBLeS;35184032]Yeah. Stay in school. Become mindless sheep. Go the f*ck ahead. I won't defend a system that encourages the wasteful spending of money on "higher learning" when you could go to say, a trade school where you can be useful in nearly any country. Lets see how handy my Welding/Carpentry skills are compared to your law degree in a 2nd-3rd world country, which is where America is going. And as flash says, The job market as it is is broken, and when people see that college/university degrees are being handed out like candy for the fine price of 1-4 years and thousands to hundred thousands of dollars, they will turn around faster than Congress spends money (that they dont have) and the vicious cycle of the economy will continue until this happens again.[/QUOTE] America is not going to become a second or third world country. Ever. But I do agree that most people who go to an university are really wasting their money. For most jobs, a trade school or community college would be better, or maybe even just high school. [editline]18th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr_WOBBLeS;35170576] Im somewhat of a Free Market Anarcho-Republi-Communist that hates the governent.[/QUOTE] I'd just like you to know, that makes no sense, whatsoever. Communists hate Free Market, and anarchists hate republics. And if you meant republic like republican, it still makes no sense.

There, but by saying that, Im part of it all, I dislike the constant bickering over the Enviroment (communist) because seriously, the world's volcanic activity alone creates more pollution than all of society combined so build that factory, Anarchist because yes, Old-school Republics dont work in modern days, and I can't stand government hand-outs and debt so Im part Republican. I added that to my arguement because if you have very few groups that influance the government, it simply does not work. I don't want a Bible Thumper like Santorum, a Rich guy like Mitt(ens) Romney, or a Extreme Sheeple/Socialist like Obama. (face it Newt is retarded, and doesn't have name recognition) The best move that I could say, is to BAN the party system, and let people fend for themselves. Also, they should be atleast 30 years old, because the main body of the existing government is out of touch with the main population that is still willing to voice their opinion. Most modern politicians arn't as good as they could because they don't have the street and book smart combination. Seriously, how many recent presidents don't have multiple houses, and a swelling bank account. If you hung around people all over the spectrum (street smart) you would know that limiting the internet is like censoring books in the 17-18 hundreds; it just doesn't fly, and people get angry/upset very rapidly. On the other hand, having a president who can't even say newkalur akem... nuclear, (I'm looking at you Bush Jr.) isn't good either and often has quite the skill of ruining foreign policy for a decade. Then, you have the sheeples. The presidents who can't endorse (thats all they really do except veto) anybody without first consulting their large, crowd sized group of "advisors".

[QUOTE=Mr_WOBBLeS;35211691]There, but by saying that, Im part of it all, I dislike the constant bickering over the Enviroment (communist) because seriously, the world's volcanic activity alone creates more pollution than all of society combined so build that factory, Anarchist because yes, Old-school Republics dont work in modern days, and I can't stand government hand-outs and debt so Im part Republican. I added that to my arguement because if you have very few groups that influance the government, it simply does not work. I don't want a Bible Thumper like Santorum, a Rich guy like Mitt(ens) Romney, or a Extreme Sheeple/Socialist like Obama. (face it Newt is retarded, and doesn't have name recognition) The best move that I could say, is to BAN the party system, and let people fend for themselves. Also, they should be atleast 30 years old, because the main body of the existing government is out of touch with the main population that is still willing to voice their opinion. Most modern politicians arn't as good as they could because they don't have the street and book smart combination. Seriously, how many recent presidents don't have multiple houses, and a swelling bank account. If you hung around people all over the spectrum (street smart) you would know that limiting the internet is like censoring books in the 17-18 hundreds; it just doesn't fly, and people get angry/upset very rapidly. On the other hand, having a president who can't even say newkalur akem... nuclear, (I'm looking at you Bush Jr.) isn't good either and often has quite the skill of ruining foreign policy for a decade. Then, you have the sheeples. The presidents who can't endorse (thats all they really do except veto) anybody without first consulting their large, crowd sized group of "advisors".[/QUOTE] So you basically took all the worst possible world views and piled them into one political viewpoint that you support.

[QUOTE=Mr_WOBBLeS;35211691]Socialist like Obama.[/QUOTE] Elaborate. How is he a Socialist? Note, the existence of welfare/unemployment insurance/etc. is not Socialism.

Well I thought all those things we're categorized under "Social Welfare" isn't social welfare determined to be categorized under Socialism? Isn't socialism taking all the taxpayers money, and trying to pump it back into the people?

[QUOTE=Flash;35213593]Well I thought all those things we're categorized under "Social Welfare" isn't social welfare determined to be categorized under Socialism? Isn't socialism taking all the taxpayers money, and trying to pump it back into the people?[/QUOTE] So then highways, public schools, police, fire departments, and sanitation are all socialist.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;35211906]So you basically took all the worst possible world views and piled them into one political viewpoint that you support.[/QUOTE] Elaborate on how they are bad? I see no problem with hating Tree Huggers, people that (bioshock ref) are "parasites" on the general taxpayer and its true that when you can buy an expensive house for 1 mil, a yacht for 500K and a Sports Car for 300K while an Oil Company (BP) has a single Quarter profit of 5.6 billion dollars that old school republics can be bought for relativly small amounts of cash. [QUOTE]Elaborate. How is he a Socialist? Note, the existence of welfare/unemployment insurance/etc. is not Socialism. [/QUOTE] In response to Megafan, Obama is a Socialist because he supported the Bailout and extention of Welfare. He did this past massive job short falls in agricultural states, where THOUSANDS of jobs were open, but because of people's general snob-like attitude they refused them WHILE living on welfare because "They were worth more than minimum wage". If he wasn't a socialist, he would support the taking of these jobs, because despite them paying low wages, it would be better than a couple thousand people still on welfare. Also, when a law forcing people to accept an accepted job application after 8 months on unemployment propped up in Georgia, he failed to back that either and it ended up not passing. [QUOTE] Well I thought all those things we're categorized under "Social Welfare" isn't social welfare determined to be categorized under Socialism? Isn't socialism taking all the taxpayers money, and trying to pump it back into the people? [/QUOTE] Entirely, and sometimes IE most of Europe, the money is used for Socialized Medicine, which Obama also supported but the Republicans wouldn't let it pass that way and the bill ended up huge and only really affected older people, and is slow to even take effect. [editline]19th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=King Tiger;35213826]So then highways, public schools, police, fire departments, and sanitation are all socialist.[/QUOTE] You sir, are taking it too far, because if you remember the Constitution [QUOTE]Section. 8. Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; Clause 2: To borrow Money on the credit of the United States; Clause 3: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; Clause 4: To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States; Clause 5: To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; Clause 6: To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States; Clause 7: To establish Post Offices and post Roads; Clause 8: To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries; Clause 9: To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court; Clause 10: To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations; Clause 11: To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water; Clause 12: To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years; Clause 13: To provide and maintain a Navy; Clause 14: To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces; Clause 15: To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; Clause 16: To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; Clause 17: To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, byCession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And Clause 18: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof. [/QUOTE] See the part about roads? Or the one about "providing for the general welfare" that means fire deps, police, sanitation. Not paying for people's life, or their next cold. I may have said that old-school republics are outdated, but the Constitution has been, and will NEARLY always be in the mind of America, despite the people in charge. Remember that the wastefulness of the existing government "loses" 2.3 billion in the Military alone, and it takes around 1 trillion to maintain the over 700 permanent overseas bases. That denies the clause of 2 years by quite a bit. With that 1 trillion the US could pay off the existing debt (not including interest) in close to 15 years.

[QUOTE=Mr_WOBBLeS;35213866]You sir, are taking it too far, because if you remember the Constitution See the part about roads? Or the one about "providing for the general welfare" that means fire deps, police, sanitation. Not paying for people's life, or their next cold. I may have said that old-school republics are outdated, but the Constitution has been, and will NEARLY always be in the mind of America, despite the people in charge. Remember that the wastefulness of the existing government "loses" 2.3 billion in the Military alone, and it takes around 1 trillion to maintain the over 700 permanent overseas bases. That denies the clause of 2 years by quite a bit. With that 1 trillion the US could pay off the existing debt (not including interest) in close to 15 years.[/QUOTE] You're a massive hypocrite.

[QUOTE=Mr_WOBBLeS;35213866]In response to Megafan, Obama is a Socialist because he supported the Bailout and extention of Welfare. He did this past massive job short falls in agricultural states, where THOUSANDS of jobs were open, but because of people's general snob-like attitude they refused them WHILE living on welfare because "They were worth more than minimum wage". If he wasn't a socialist, he would support the taking of these jobs, because despite them paying low wages, it would be better than a couple thousand people still on welfare. Also, when a law forcing people to accept an accepted job application after 8 months on unemployment propped up in Georgia, he failed to back that either and it ended up not passing.[/QUOTE] Your attitude about it seems to be 'he did not support x supposed free market initiative, therefore he is a Socialist' rather than the correct 'he did x socialist action, therefore he is a socialist'. Also, as a moderator of this section, I must ask you for sources (a credible source, not some Fox Nation opinion piece) on these 'thousands of jobs available'. It's worth noting that there is not a single state in America in which you can, on average, afford a livable apartment on minimum wage.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;35214011]You're a massive hypocrite.[/QUOTE] How? Don't just say it, back it up with why! [QUOTE]Your attitude about it seems to be 'he did not support x supposed free market initiative, therefore he is a Socialist' rather than the correct 'he did x socialist action, therefore he is a socialist'[/QUOTE] Thats what the first sentance is about, but back to the main question posed by OP, America is doomed because it can't innovate anymore. We have a trade deficit (2011) of 52.3 Billion USD, and we can't expect much more growth on this planet. Civilization consumes so much material that unless we expand to multiple others, we can't expect to continue growing the economy. The USA is small compared to other countries, and cannot expect to continue at its current pace. Equally, Socialism is not sustainable as it invokes high amounts of national debt. So Megafan, yes Obama is a Socialist because he has done an amazing job supporting large, debt causing policies. My opinion would be for the governments to stop their personal bickering and face the looming Earth population cap, because its not far away, and when it does happen, war is imminent, like next day type mass-scale jet bombardments and country "fragmentation". Oh yeah, by the way, alot of deportations usually means open jobs Mega, just saying. Just remember, honest people have nothing to hide. Thats why the outrage over this is total BS. If the Hispanics wanted to stay in 'Merica then they could atleast do it legitimatly. Oh yeah, heres the link Mega- =3 [url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/14/alabama-immigration-law-families-trapped[/url] [url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/aug/31/climatechange.food[/url] [url]http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/balance-of-trade[/url] I sat at a Barber's shop getting my haircut today. I told the barber that I read these posts on a debate forum, and that alot of people thought America was going to be fine in the near future, but a few, like myself were saying that unless alot was changed, it wasn't going to all be fine. The ENTIRE PLACE erupted in furious discussion about how the Education system stressed too much unnessasary things, and alot of the things that I had said. This leads me to believe that I am not alone. Then before I left, a old gentleman said, "Corperations do whatever they want to turn a profit, and replacing people with robots isn't going to fix it when nobody has money to buy their goods." You can call me whatever you want, but the people out there that think "WERE AMERICA SO WE CAN DO WHATEVER WE WANT" need to look outside of their little bubble. The majority of even-slightly educated people are OUTRAGED at the existing economic state, and most believe that America won't be the lead country of the world for much longer.

my god are you defeatist, Wobbles.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;35226726]This thread is getting hilarious, it's turned into a contest to see who can come up with the craziest conspiracy theories.[/QUOTE] You should get banned for sheer idiocy. "Theories" would imply that there were more than one person resorting to old 9-11 conspiracies and other nonsense. [QUOTE] my god are you defeatist, Wobbles. [/QUOTE] Possibly, but of all people to know, most of you Mass Debate users atleast research what they are ranting about. Remember that history has a knack for repetition/near repetition and eventually the Western powers will concede to the East (China anybody?) and the vicious cycle shall begin again. However, you seem to forget that for the first time in human history, somebody in Hawaii can get into a arguement with an Austrailian (I picked the first two places that came to mind) and have it end in one day. There might be a chance for there to be an Earth Government, not just the temporary Super-power playing Policeman.

Even if any of these conspiracy theories are right, what good does it do being angry and posting about it on the internet.

[QUOTE=Ybbats;35227653]Even if any of these conspiracy theories are right, what good does it do being angry and posting about it on the internet.[/QUOTE] PEOPLE the 9-11 conspiracy is BS. So stop posting crap about the theory stuff.

[QUOTE=Mr_WOBBLeS;35211691]Also, they should be atleast 30 years old, because the main body of the existing government is out of touch with the main population that is still willing to voice their opinion.[/QUOTE] That makes no sense, the politicians are out of touch because most of them are too old, why would a higher age requirement help? I say ditch the age requirement entirely, just make them need some legal education. Also get rid of the presidential term limit, we only had one president serve more than two terms before we had that law and he did a pretty good job.

I think America in general is just too retarded to survive. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("This is NOT debating." - Megafan))[/highlight]

There is no "pending population cap". The entire population of the world could fit in Jacksonville, Florida.

I think it was actually something like the whole world, shoulder to shoulder, wouldn't even fill up Florida.