Zero Punctuation: "Top 5 of 2012" - General

Wow, this game looks terrible. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1ow6kVJdsA[/media]

The [sp]WP[/sp] event didn't faze me a bit because once [sp]Walker said "we don't have a choice"[/sp] I thought to myself [sp]"oh boy can't wait to have a stroll through a field of burning baby carcasses"[/sp]

[QUOTE=Raidyr;39073558] Are you suggesting that the game wouldn't have worked without movement and shooting being more enjoyable? [/QUOTE] Yeah, that's the entire point of me bringing up Far Cry 3, because since it had mechanics that rewarded and almost glorified shooting, it caused a tonal disconnect between its mechanics and narrative (that's not even to mention Jason saying "eww" the most effeminate way he can every time he skins an animal, but has no qualms burning people alive.) And in all honesty, I think the [sp]White Phosphorus[/sp] was actually a pretty weak part of the game, not because I thought it was hamfisted or forced like you think so, but maybe because it has unfortunate position of being only the beginning of the game's spiral down into insanity. The part that actually hit me the most was [sp]the end conversation with Konrad[/sp] (which also made the [sp]White Phsophorus[/sp] scene better by association because of the way it's subtly brought back as a motif) because that's where the game explicitly reveals its point and does it in the most spectacular way, albeit in an also very predictable way (though I didn't see it coming).

[QUOTE=Raidyr;39073272]Except I'm not complaining about that, I'm complaining that the mechanics just aren't very good and that I don't buy into the "Game is good because its purposefully bad" idea. I'm glad you brought up Far Cry 3 though, a game that does something similar to what Spec Ops does but in a much more enjoyable to play package with exponentially more content. It really isn't, and the shooter genre doesn't need indictments it needs enjoyable games. Enjoyable stories are cool and developers wanting to insert their politics into games is okay as long as it's done well (Spec Ops gets hamfisted at times) but, and I may just be old fashioned here, games should be judged atleast mostly on the gameplay, and not the narrative. [editline]2nd January 2013[/editline] Basically, I disagree with the idea that the gameplay was intentionally made poor to fit with the narrative, and even if it was (no way to know now, cats out of the bag on that one) I'd call that a pretty stupid way to make a video game.[/QUOTE] What if you liked the gameplay of Spec Ops as much as the story :v: I honestly didn't think the gameplay was bland, shooting people felt pretty good to me and especially when you got the sniper that shot body parts off. The melee executions were tons of fun as well. While I love Spec Ops is the whole "the gameplay was like that purposely to be like that so you think it's a generic shooter then bla bla bla" said by the devs or just what the community thinks because I think that's bull honestly and that's coming from someone whos GOTY is Spec Ops. The gameplay doesn't need to do that, I first thought it was a generic shooter by the ads and the first mission.

[QUOTE=The Stills;39073674]Yeah, that's the entire point of me bringing up Far Cry 3, because since it had mechanics that rewarded and almost glorified shooting, it caused a tonal disconnect between its mechanics and narrative (that's not even to mention Jason saying "eww" the most effeminate way he can every time he skins an animal, but has no qualms burning people alive.)[/QUOTE] I don't know about rewarding and glorifying shooting, it simply made shooting feel good in a game where shooting people is 90% of the content. I'll agree that it's weird how your character seems grossed out skinning a boar, and then horribly murders a camp full of pirates. [QUOTE]And in all honesty, I think the [sp]White Phosphorus[/sp] was actually a pretty weak part of the game, not because I thought it was hamfisted or forced like you think so, but maybe because it has unfortunate position of being only the beginning of the game's spiral down into insanity. The part that actually hit me the most was [sp]the end conversation with Konrad[/sp] (which also made the [sp]White Phsophorus[/sp] scene better by association because of the way it's subtly brought back as a motif) because that's where the game explicitly reveals its point and does it in the most spectacular way, albeit in an also very predictable way (though I didn't see it coming).[/QUOTE] Agreed, like I said, most of the shit that happens after the [sp]helicopter crash[/sp] is the real heavy stuff.

[QUOTE=bobsynergy;39073686]While I love Spec Ops is the whole "the gameplay was like that purposely to be like that so you think it's a generic shooter then bla bla bla" said by the devs or just what the community thinks because I think that's bull honestly and that's coming from someone whos GOTY is Spec Ops.[/QUOTE] Are you saying that if the "bad gameplay on purpose" thing is an idea made by the consumers, that makes it a wrong assumption? Because most critical thinking nowadays focusses on the audiences interpretation, there's an idea that no meaning is generated by a piece of media, until the audience draws from it. I don't think the generic mechanics have any real metaphorical meaning, but I do believe they were put in the game on purpose to set up the game as a sucker punch for those expecting Arab Gallery Shooter Fun Time number 9001, and also to serve their narrative point as I've said in previous posts. [QUOTE=Raidyr;39073739]I don't know about rewarding and glorifying shooting, it simply made shooting feel good in a game where shooting people is 90% of the content. I'll agree that it's weird how your character seems grossed out skinning a boar, and then horribly murders a camp full of pirates. [/QUOTE] Okay it's not really a case of the mechanics explicitly saying that shooting is an okay thing to do, it's the fact that the narrative does say something negative about shooting, and the mechanics do nothing to reflect that.

The only things that Spec Ops did well were[sp]the mental and physical degeneration of Walker's squad and the growing feeling of despair as the game progressed It's a good story, but any claims about moral dilemmas or criticism of shooters/war are null It's no different from a movie/book's third person perspective Nothing about it elicited any sort of personal emotional response from me, since Walker was too removed from my own actions and morals I didn't think, "I fucked up" I thought, "he fucked up"[/sp] Stuff like "don't like the message don't play it" and "it was like x to trick you into thinking it's generic" are pretty rubbish, because what they mainly care about is the amount of effort they put in vs. the amount of money they can make They would be sound points if the devs had unlimited funding and if the game was free, but it's far from that in reality In the end it's still a business, and they still have to make a profit

Wow really, because it's published by a mainstream publisher it automatically means it doesn't have any artistic merit? I spose Alfred Hitchcock, Stanley Kubrick, Quentin Tarrantino and Christopher Nolan's films are all devoid of any artistic merit and are incapable of making any kind of statement as well.

[QUOTE=The Stills;39073988]Wow really, because it's published by a mainstream publisher it automatically means it doesn't have any artistic merit? I spose Alfred Hitchcock, Stanley Kubrick, Quentin Tarrantino and Christopher Nolan's films are all devoid of any artistic merit and are incapable of making any kind of statement as well.[/QUOTE] Movies are not the same as games Please show me where I said it had no artistic merit because I'd like to know if I have Alzheimers However, I can show you where I said it had a good story, which is ~literary art~ [editline]2nd January 2013[/editline] The game deserves praise, but it's mostly getting it for the wrong reasons

[QUOTE=Jund;39073910] Stuff like "don't like the message don't play it" and "it was like x to trick you into thinking it's generic" are pretty rubbish, because what they mainly care about is the amount of effort they put in vs. the amount of money they can make They would be sound points if the devs had unlimited funding and if the game was free, but it's far from that in reality In the end it's still a business, and they still have to make a profit[/QUOTE] You were implying that the only thing thought of during the development of the game was how profitable it is, not the idea of sending a core, artistic message with the game.

[QUOTE=The Stills;39074096]You were implying that the only thing thought of during the development of the game was how profitable it is, not the idea of sending a core, artistic message with the game.[/QUOTE] I wasn't [I]implying[/I] anything of the sort Whatever message they were trying to send (if they cared about the message at all) was limited by poor execution due to lack of funding and profit margins Therefore the representation of their message was poor, and shouldn't be lauded it way it is [editline]2nd January 2013[/editline] If I piss on my bedsheets and say it's an "artistic symbolism of the fallacy of modern art messages" and some scmuck pays me 5 million for it, it doesn't mean I give a rat's ass about any sort of "message"

[QUOTE=postmanX3;39071395]i am the only person that enjoyed resident evil 6 a lot. :( Pretty good list overall, though. Walking Dead would be my pick for GOTY, though to be fair I haven't played Spec Ops personally -- I saw quite a bit of the exposition, however, since my brother played it through in basically one sitting and I glanced over his shoulder every once in a while. Also I would have included Hotline Miami somewhere in the top 5. (But wait, did he review Hotline Miami? Probably not.)[/QUOTE] I enjoyed RE6 myself. I had a blast playing with my bro and friend in co-op.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;39073272] and I may just be old fashioned here, games should be judged atleast mostly on the gameplay, and not the narrative. [/QUOTE] I'd say bollocks to that to be honest. Good narrative is as important to creating an engaging experience as the gameplay. You could build a GOTY out focusing on either, but ideally you'd include both. A lot of reviewers liked Spec Ops' narrative because it's contrasts a bit with what we've seen in other games in the genre in recent years. But then again I'm one who'd recommend puzzle games and visual novels alongside shooters to anybody. The willy-pete is getting a bit too much attention in the discussion, I think. What I liked better, and what I thought the game pulled off more nicely and differently than what other games might, is the scene where [sp]one of your squadmates gets killed by a riled-up mob, you fail to revive him (you don't see that too often in Hollywood...) and you have to face that same crowd turning on you[/sp]. THAT was really a thought-provoking moment.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;39071268]He did play [b]Day[/b]Z.[/QUOTE] Your point is?

This is what the lead writer Walt Willaims said about in an interview about the forced [sp]white phosphorus scene.[/sp] There's no arguing people may say it feels cheap, pretentious or frustrating but more or less he intended it to be. [quote=Walt Williams]The Player can open fire on the Soldiers using their normal weapons, but they are severely outnumbered. The Player will eventually run out of ammo and be overcome. Is that necessarily fair? No. But it's not until you've used the mortar and seen the consequences of your actions that you start to wonder, “Could I have done something different?” And the answer is no. It was your only real option. To which you might say, “That’s not fair.” And I’d say, “You’re right.” [b]That’s a real emotional response and I can guarantee it’s exactly what Walker is feeling in that moment.[/b][/quote]

[QUOTE=kaskade700;39068009]Generally multiplayer focus = steaming pile of shit in Yahtzee world. He is indeed a clever man.[/QUOTE] A lot of gamers are the same way. I feel that way about multiplayer as well. I play for fun, I don't find getting curbstomped endlessly by people with >900 hours in the game to be in any way even remotely fun. So I hate multiplayer in general and tend to shrug off multiplayer-focused games because of it. I know a lot of FP will hand me a shiny new boxfort because I don't like multiplayer, but that's just how it is. I don't enjoy it so I don't want to spend a small fortune on a game designed around a gamemode I will never touch. [editline]3rd January 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Raidyr;39073272] but, and I may just be old fashioned here, games should be judged atleast mostly on the gameplay, and not the narrative.[/QUOTE] Except many gamers but games for the story first and foremost. Especially with shooters. I've passed many a game up because the story was terrible, and I've forgiven glaring technical/gameplay issues because the story was great.

Hey, uh, guys, there is an option for you in the [sp]white phosphorus segment.[/sp] It's called not doing it. Yeah, you're going to [sp]die, but at least you're not going to kill a bunch of people, are you?[/sp] I heard somewhere, probably on TVTropes, that the [sp]white phosphorus segment was designed to make the players start blaming the developer (e.g "they didn't give me a choice") just like Walker started blaming Konrad (e.g "he didn't give me a choice") except when everyone forgets there is one glaring option the game never stops you from doing: the option of just stopping. Heck, at the end they even spell it out for you "none of this would have happened if you just stopped". It took me a long long while to get through the white phosphorus segment, mainly because I was trying to find out if there were alternatives. I think I died twenty times or so trying to find another way past the soldiers. And I have to admit, when I eventually did it and walked through the results, I kept telling myself that it's not my fault and that the developer should have programmed a different option, because I wanted to get to the end without having my reputation tarnished. I did want to get to the end as a hero- just like Walker.[/sp] In fact, isn't the [sp]white phosphorus segment supposed to evoke those segments in the Modern Warfare games where suddenly everyone turns into white silhouettes and you just mow down people without a care in the world and then move on? The only difference is that Spec Ops: The Line makes you walk through the damage you made.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Stopper;39068807]He's not a reviewer, he's a critic.[/QUOTE] I will say though, he was the one who introduced me to the Thief series a few years back and now I'm a stealth genre addict so I guess I have him to thank for that.

[QUOTE=Zuimzado;39078166]In fact, isn't the [sp]white phosphorus segment supposed to evoke those segments in the Modern Warfare games where suddenly everyone turns into white silhouettes and you just mow down people without a care in the world and then move on?[/sp][/QUOTE]playing the AC-130 part in CoD4 was pretty cool the first time. the second time i played it i actually started thinking about what the huge-calibre explosive rounds do to the human body, and what kind of a mess it actually is down there when the Vulcan's rounds tear into the so-called 'terrorists'

[QUOTE=Stopper;39068807]He's not a reviewer, he's a critic.[/QUOTE] He's made couple of games himself that are brilliant, so he knows what he's talking about.

[QUOTE=smeismastger;39079010]He's made couple of games himself that are brilliant, so he knows what he's talking about.[/QUOTE] Well, that said, you don't need to MAKE a good game to tell when a game is shit. I can't fly a plane, but if my pilot crashed and killed everyone but me, I'd have the right to be pissed. And no, he's not a reviewer, he IS a critic, he's said this many times himself. There's a significant difference, that doesn't make him any less knowledgeable about the subject at hand.

[QUOTE=NachoPiggy;39077196]This is what the lead writer Walt Willaims said about in an interview about the forced [sp]white phosphorus scene.[/sp] There's no arguing people may say it feels cheap, pretentious or frustrating but more or less he intended it to be.[/QUOTE] Thank you for proving my point that everything that is wrong or forced with the game is instead lauded as being deep and insightful. It felt cheap because it was. It wasn't frustrating at all, just disappointing. [QUOTE=Zuimzado;39078166]Hey, uh, guys, there is an option for you in the [sp]white phosphorus segment.[/sp] It's called not doing it. Yeah, you're going to [sp]die, but at least you're not going to kill a bunch of people, are you?[/sp][/QUOTE] Right, the best way is to just stop playing the game there and instead of using your $10-$60 video game investment to chew up some free time you reflect on how "deep" hamfisted emotional scenes are. [QUOTE] I heard somewhere, probably on TVTropes, that the [sp]white phosphorus segment was designed to make the players start blaming the developer (e.g "they didn't give me a choice") just like Walker started blaming Konrad (e.g "he didn't give me a choice") except when everyone forgets there is one glaring option the game never stops you from doing: the option of just stopping. Heck, at the end they even spell it out for you "none of this would have happened if you just stopped". It took me a long long while to get through the white phosphorus segment, mainly because I was trying to find out if there were alternatives. I think I died twenty times or so trying to find another way past the soldiers. And I have to admit, when I eventually did it and walked through the results, I kept telling myself that it's not my fault and that the developer should have programmed a different option, because I wanted to get to the end without having my reputation tarnished. I did want to get to the end as a hero- just like Walker.[/sp][/QUOTE] Yeah, no thanks, I don't want a game to become so meta that the point is to stop playing it. You have officially jumped the shark with that defense. [QUOTE]In fact, isn't the [sp]white phosphorus segment supposed to evoke those segments in the Modern Warfare games where suddenly everyone turns into white silhouettes and you just mow down people without a care in the world and then move on? The only difference is that Spec Ops: The Line makes you walk through the damage you made.[/sp] [/QUOTE] The damage I made to get to the next play area in a game I paid money for. If I had a choice at any part during the entire scene it could have been even slightly interesting but the fact that [sp]you have to drop WP on the Humvee next to tons of unarmed heat signatures (I WONDER WHO THOSE GUYS ARE)[/sp]means you were simply forced to do it to keep playing the game you bought.

The scene is meta, get over that already. The game doesn't want or ask of you you to stop playing it, nor does it attempt to create the illusion of options - it just invites you to reflect on the inevitability of the segment and on what game in general railroads you into doing, in any emotional state. There are no grounds for being entitled to "neutral" options.

[QUOTE]Yeah, no thanks, I don't want a game to become so meta that the point is to stop playing it. You have officially jumped the shark with that defense. [/QUOTE] The point is not to stop playing it. The point is to show how railroaded military games are. Do this, do that, don't you dare leave this area and go do something different. The game doesn't tell you "hey, maybe you should stop playing", but it makes a point to show how none of this would have happened if you had just stopped following the instructions given to you and believed in the idea of being a hero that people have gotten from other dudebro military games.

I'm still probably going to love Spec Ops.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;39080776]I'm still probably going to love Spec Ops.[/QUOTE] Oh yeah, you will. Your mind will get so fucked, it doesn't even give you a tissue to clean it all up. And personally I loved the gunplay. Sure, it was generic. But it was solid, tight, and never made me go, "Oh fuck you, controller" I did at the beginning, but it was sorta like playing Arkham City for the first time. First, the way your character moves makes you feel sick. Then, it becomes second nature.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;39080776]I'm still probably going to love Spec Ops.[/QUOTE] It's a solid game on it's own but receives far too much praise.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;39080776]I'm still probably going to love Spec Ops.[/QUOTE] this might sound mean but making a preliminary opinion out of other people's opinions (especially one like that) is a bit silly.

[QUOTE=Im Crimson;39079594]The scene is meta, get over that already. The game doesn't want or ask of you you to stop playing it, nor does it attempt to create the illusion of options - it just invites you to reflect on the inevitability of the segment and on what game in general railroads you into doing, in any emotional state. There are no grounds for being entitled to "neutral" options.[/QUOTE] I'm not going to "get over it" until people stop praising it as the singular best moment in video game narrative history. The game itself railroads you into doing shit, that's the reason that entire scene failed to impress. I have no idea what that last part even means [QUOTE=Zuimzado;39080559]The point is not to stop playing it. The point is to show how railroaded military games are. Do this, do that, don't you dare leave this area and go do something different. The game doesn't tell you "hey, maybe you should stop playing", but it makes a point to show how none of this would have happened if you had just stopped following the instructions given to you and believed in the idea of being a hero that people have gotten from other dudebro military games.[/QUOTE] But Spec Ops The Line played the exact same. There was almost no freedom to do anything you want. As far as level design it followed CoD to a tee with the same ultra-linear hallways, checkpoints, and waiting on your buddies to breach the door before being allowed to move on. When "dudebro" shooters do this its boring and contrived linearity, when Spec Ops does it it's a great example of parody or satire or whatever.

[QUOTE=trotskygrad;39081940]this might sound mean but making a preliminary opinion out of other people's opinions (especially one like that) is a bit silly.[/QUOTE] If I find some problems when I play it then I'll happily post about it here.