My Dog Gets Catcalled More Than Me: A Primer on Vegan Feminism
44 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Kaelnukem;49761243]There are plenty of reports available that explain the benefits on being a vegan.[/QUOTE]
If you don't take supplements the cons outweigh the pros because it's impossible to get an adequate amount of vitamin D and B12 from plants. Not getting enough vitamin D will stop our body from taking up calcium which will lead to osteoporosis among other things. B12 is essential for erythrocyte (red blod cell) formation and deficiency will disrupt the development of your brain and lead to a range of neurological diseases. This is not up for debate, a strict vegan diet without supplements is NOT healthy and any doctor will tell you that.
The reason I am posting this is not to nag on you and I agree with the point of the post you made. I just want you and other people who read your post to be aware of this and not hurt themselves or their children.
*Disclaimer before reading my post: I am not trying to be preachy, but these decisions shouldn't be based upon ignorance of the subject. If you don't care about anything outside your personal bubble, by all means continue doing what you are doing.
[QUOTE=maeZtro;49764636]If you don't take supplements the cons outweigh the pros because it's impossible to get an adequate amount of vitamin D and B12 from plants. Not getting enough vitamin D will stop our body from taking up calcium which will lead to osteoporosis among other things. B12 is essential for erythrocyte (red blod cell) formation and deficiency will disrupt the development of your brain and lead to a range of neurological diseases. This is not up for debate, a strict vegan diet without supplements is NOT healthy and any doctor will tell you that.
The reason I am posting this is not to nag on you and I agree with the point of the post you made. I just want you and other people who read your post to be aware of this and not hurt themselves or their children.[/QUOTE]
Although this is true, I do need to take supplements. There are still health benefits attached to not eating animal products, which you should be able to see as the downside of an omnivore diet.
Vitamin D and B12 can be gained from fortified food. Vitamin D is actually found in mushrooms that have been exposed to sun light, so you do have a natural source for that. I would still suggest supplements to be on the safe side though, you shouldn't fuck around with your health. If you think you can get it all from your diet, get your blood tested to see if you need supplements or not.
I think it is a bit lame of you to say that the cons outweigh the pros, simply because of the supplements. Especially when you ignore the other health benefits of a vegan diet and the health risks of eating, for example, meat.
As I have said before, veganism is not just one thing. Most tend to be it for ethical reasons, so a bit of ''discomfort'' heavily outweighs killing an animal.
[QUOTE=Slim Charles;49761192]I don't really put that much thought into it honestly but if I had to say something on the topic at the risk of sounding stupid; I am a human, so I see human life as above animal life, and to put it bluntly I really don't care that much about killing livestock in order to eat them.[/QUOTE]
this is the kind of stuff is exactly what caused a lot of human misery in the first place. If you wish to judge a life based on its value, then you should't and can't stop at other species than humans. It would only be logical to keep going to the lower segments of society, if you truly think superiority matters, and aren't just saying it to make yourself feel good about eating animals.
And if we only applied that to animals, why aren't pigs and chickens left alone? Pigs are just as smart or a bit smarter than dogs and chickens are like cats.
[QUOTE=glitchvid;49761806]As I see it, Nature has and will continue being a harsh place for animals, what humans are doing isn't particularly worse than what's been happening for millions of years.[/QUOTE]
Yes, nature can be harsh and unforgiving. A moment you have a surplus in fish, the other moment your tribe is wiped out because a piece of ice that size of Luxembourgh cuts off your route to the sea.
However, you can't honestly believe that nature is on par with humans. We have created a process where nature is a toddler and we are the adults when it comes to laying waste to the flora and fauna of this planet.
Wiping out forests and displacing animals because we need space to eat animals, force animals to breed so that we can eat their offspring, genetically fuck with animals so that there is more to eat off them and completely ignoring genetical defects it has on them. If we were aliens and we did this on a less intelligent humanoid species, there would have been wars fought over this. We would be treated as an example what happens when you throw all empathy and caution to the wind.
And even funnier, our own fuckery is what made nature act up a lot more than she would do on herself.
My question to all of you, why do you care so much about a few things you eat? Would you continue eating anything else if it caused suffering on a global scale and attributed immensely to global warming?
I used to love meat and disliked vegetables. I could not understand how you could be healthy or have nice meals without animals products, but that is all based on ignorance. Yes, you may miss some things of the past. I still miss eating frikandels (they're like meatball sausages), but I have made and eaten so much stuff that is more delicious. I have had my blood tested a few months ago, after being vegan for 3 years, it came back as 100 percent healthy.
[QUOTE=Kaelnukem;49765666]Although this is true, I do need to take supplements. There are still health benefits attached to not eating animal products, which you should be able to see as the downside of an omnivore diet.
Vitamin D and B12 can be gained from fortified food. Vitamin D is actually found in mushrooms that have been exposed to sun light, so you do have a natural source for that. I would still suggest supplements to be on the safe side though, you shouldn't fuck around with your health. If you think you can get it all from your diet, get your blood tested to see if you need supplements or not.
I think it is a bit lame of you to say that the cons outweigh the pros, simply because of the supplements. Especially when you ignore the other health benefits of a vegan diet and the health risks of eating, for example, meat.[/QUOTE]
It's true that there are health benefits to not eating as much meat as the average westener does (lower risk of colorectal cancer and some other cancers) but cutting out meat completely has not been proven to have any health benefit at all. In fact, supplements are believed to increase risk of cancer as well so it isn't actually clear if you will have a lower risk of getting it. Also the vitamin D in mushrooms is D2, which is great because many vegans are deficiant in that, but it's D3 that you can't obtain from plants and the sun won't cover either.
The reason I say the cons outweigh the pros is because with the science we have today it's clear that a vegan diet [B]without supplements[/B] is bad for you compared to a omnivourous diet. There are also other cons than the vitamin deficits like the protein in most plantbased food not being nearly as efficient for maintaining muscle mass and then you have to factor in that many people don't have the knowledge and sense of planning to be a "healthy" vegan. There is no clear indication of a vegan diet with supplements being better than a omnivourous diet with less meat either, so if you are just in it for health it's safer to just eat less meat or at the very least become vegetarian.
Oh and about the blood screen, many deficiencies can't be seen by doing a simple blood test and you have to check for specific things in the blood for some of the ones you can. What they most likely did was checking your hematocritic value (concentration of erythrocytes) and maybe did a white blood cell count.
Now if you are in it for some other reason like you don't like the way we treat animals that's another thing and I think that's commendable even though I would never become vegan myself. I try to eat less meat and buy from good places but it's hard when you live with four other people that loves meat and don't have a good income.
Refusing to eat meat altogether based on some bullshit health reasons is stupid. Of course it's bad for you to eat too much of it because since meat is naturally hard to get (being attached to living, usually quite fast moving things and not just bushes and trees that don't fight back), but whether you like it or not you're still an omnivorous creature and you require both vegetables and meat in adequate quantities to be [I]relatively[/I] healthy. Refusing to eat either of those entirely is far worse than eating too much of one, by any stretch of the imagination.
Sure in this day and age you have supplements to avoid the normally brutal deficiencies that would come with unbalanced diets, but not everybody likes to take supplements. I for one would hate to have to take supplements under the pretense of a "healthier" lifestyle because it would feel like I'd be on medicine 24/7 and that's just a shit way to live if I can avoid it.
Any diet that actually relies on supplements can't be good for you.
Why?
Supplements are unregulated, untested, and unaccountable. You have no idea what you're taking.
[editline]18th February 2016[/editline]
We eat too much meat as it is, I won't argue that. We have too many live stock, that's just a fact. But we don't need to be vegetarian or vegan to offset that. We just need to make a concious decision to eat less meat.
I never liked veganism because of it's "All or nothing" nature in a situation/context that really doesn't care that you're all or nothing because the same amount of animals are still being killed and eaten. If everyone just ate less meat, we'd be in a better place on that end.
[QUOTE=Thaard;49758340]Remember, if the farmer is a cis-male, it's always rape![/QUOTE]
Hey don't be homophobic I am quite sure there are many closeted gay farmers!
Edit: I hope none of these vegan feminists ever get into any form of political power, if I can't get meat and eggs my body would basically just break down due to my unusually high metabolism.
[QUOTE=Kaelnukem;49765666]-snip-[/QUOTE]
These are all good and fair points (My mother is a vegan, so I've heard many of them before) but I just really don't care honestly, I know that sounds harsh and stupid, but I'm a blue collar guy from a blue collar part of WA, there's enough suffering going around caused by a multitude of other reasons that even I and the people around me have experienced that I honestly don't put too much thought into how animals are treated outside of live exporting.
[QUOTE=maeZtro;49766870]It's true that there are health benefits to not eating as much meat as the average westener does (lower risk of colorectal cancer and some other cancers) but cutting out meat completely has not been proven to have any health benefit at all. In fact, supplements are believed to increase risk of cancer as well so it isn't actually clear if you will have a lower risk of getting it. Also the vitamin D in mushrooms is D2, which is great because many vegans are deficiant in that, but it's D3 that you can't obtain from plants and the sun won't cover either.
The reason I say the cons outweigh the pros is because with the science we have today it's clear that a vegan diet [B]without supplements[/B] is bad for you compared to a omnivourous diet. There are also other cons than the vitamin deficits like the protein in most plantbased food not being nearly as efficient for maintaining muscle mass and then you have to factor in that many people don't have the knowledge and sense of planning to be a "healthy" vegan. There is no clear indication of a vegan diet with supplements being better than a omnivourous diet with less meat either, so if you are just in it for health it's safer to just eat less meat or at the very least become vegetarian.
Oh and about the blood screen, many deficiencies can't be seen by doing a simple blood test and you have to check for specific things in the blood for some of the ones you can. What they most likely did was checking your hematocritic value (concentration of erythrocytes) and maybe did a white blood cell count.
Now if you are in it for some other reason like you don't like the way we treat animals that's another thing and I think that's commendable even though I would never become vegan myself. I try to eat less meat and buy from good places but it's hard when you live with four other people that loves meat and don't have a good income.[/QUOTE]
All the stuff I have read and listened to have said the opposite. Supplements are not exclusive to just vegans though, the older you get, the more likely your will have to take supplements regardless of your diet.
As for supplements being badly regulated, I would have to read into that more. So far my health hasn't deteriorated, so that's a plus.
I looked up the test you talked about. My tests went into a lot more than just my blood levels, they looked up the levels of vitamins and minerals that are commonly believed vegans have a deficiency off. I have a paper of the results, but I would have to look it up.
As for the muscle mass, that is a very common myth that is perpetuated everywhere. Believe it or not, you can become quite an accomplished athlete and be vegan at the same time.
[img]http://team.macri.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/941424_4174963751044_813804607_n.jpg[/img]
Patrik Baboumian holds multiple world records as a professional strongman.
I do agree that you have to read into the requirements to stay healthy as a vegan. A lot of people become vegans, don't learn what they need to eat and get health problems. That's just bad stuff for everyone involved.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49767394]Any diet that actually relies on supplements can't be good for you.
Why?
Supplements are unregulated, untested, and unaccountable. You have no idea what you're taking.
[editline]18th February 2016[/editline]
I never liked veganism because of it's "All or nothing" nature in a situation/context that really doesn't care that you're all or nothing because the same amount of animals are still being killed and eaten. If everyone just ate less meat, we'd be in a better place on that end.[/QUOTE]
I do not understand what you are trying to say? Vegans believe that animals shouldn't be seen as a commodity for entertainment (consumption included) and it contributes to global warming and general worsening of the environment in some place (like California where a lot of water is used for life stock).
It is kind of an all or nothing deal, that is not to say people who are trying to consume less shouldn't be commended. There is some scepticism when you hear someone talking about animal welfare and climate change, but they don't see veganism as the answer. Which tends to rustle my jimmies as well, especially when I hear this from activist organisations.
As veganism is still a growing movement, I have no doubt that a lot of your reservations will not be needed in a few years. Those that were vegan in the 60ties to the 80ties are amazed by all the products that are made for vegans. Like fake meat, rice icecream or vegan condiments like Just Mayo. So will supplements improve and fake meat will be indiscernible of real meat, be it made from plants or grown in a lab without of killing an animal.
I do want to say your arguments are better than the usual ones I see, like ''we are animals, lions eat meat too!!''. You are all a lot more civil as well, which I would like to thank you for :)
I say the "All or nothing" element of it turns me off because of the reality of the situation.
In America alone, you have 350 odd million people living there. The agricultural run off is literally killing areas of the ocean like the Gulf of Mexico. No arguments there, it's terrible. But as a whole, veganism is doomed to fail just due to that. We're talking about totally replacing live stock which keep people working, generate money as an economic factor, and then we're also talking about a cultural change that is the real fight here.
Veganism from an ecological stand point fails right away because it needs a massive, [B]massive[/B] adoption rate to meet it's goals. So massive that we are talking about usurping, and replacing the live stock industry(which I'm not arguing is a good, or a bad thing, just pointing out the difficulties in this) in it's entirety. Any industrial/commercial sized livestock operation at that point is still negatively effecting the environment, so they do kind of all need to go. So the cultural change also has to be complete, or nearly so, relying purely on small family farms from a time long forgotten to fill that demand.
Now, speaking purely from a feasibility stand point, I find it highly unrealistic to suggest that's a change that'll ever happen. The cultural change is huge, the economics and logistics of the situation are massive, I can't see a change like that actually taking place in under a century if at all.
I support the mindset of veganism from an ecological perspective and have no problem with what the replacement foods would be, but logistically, I don't think it's possible.
Supplements taste like shit in all honesty, only a hint like the real thing. And plus why would I want to eat some shit made in a lab rather than what my ancestors ate, and their ancestors ate and so on and so forth.
[editline]19th February 2016[/editline]
Also " I am not trying to be preachy" but proceeds writes a 8 page thesis on why we're all wrong and ignorant.
Personally I can't take veganism seriously. On an ecological level it is entirely ineffective, animal products are used in practically every industry and are used in the production of many everyday items.
Doing it for health reasons is pointless because you have to take supplements, where a low meat or vegetarian diet would be a much healthier choice as they don't need supplements in the first place. "You can get muscular on a vegan diet." Sure, if you take a load of steroids.
Moral reasons I can't take seriously because it expects us to treat animals on a similar level to Humans, or that somehow all animals are 'equal'. I also find the idea that our own basic anatomical processes being 'immoral' to be ridiculous. Sure the industries involved in growing livestock and producing meat need to be overhauled, but it isn't immoral to eat a steak, nor is it unusual for a farmer to care for the animals he is raising for food.
My views on veganism were probably soured in school, though not changed as I never really liked it. I had a vegan teacher who I would often get into arguments with because she loathed hunting, and I went hunting quite a bit at the time.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49771195]Personally I can't take veganism seriously. On an ecological level it is entirely ineffective, animal products are used in practically every industry and are used in the production of many everyday items.
Doing it for health reasons is pointless because you have to take supplements, where a low meat or vegetarian diet would be a much healthier choice as they don't need supplements in the first place. "You can get muscular on a vegan diet." Sure, if you take a load of steroids.
Moral reasons I can't take seriously because it expects us to treat animals on a similar level to Humans, or that somehow all animals are 'equal'. I also find the idea that our own basic anatomical processes being 'immoral' to be ridiculous. Sure the industries involved in growing livestock and producing meat need to be overhauled, but it isn't immoral to eat a steak, nor is it unusual for a farmer to care for the animals he is raising for food.
My views on veganism were probably soured in school, though not changed as I never really liked it. I had a vegan teacher who I would often get into arguments with because she loathed hunting, and I went hunting quite a bit at the time.[/QUOTE]
I would actually want to try the exact opposite, an all organs and meat diet, it has its own health effects but I would say that since most of the vitamins can be found in animal organs it is arguably less unhealthy than a strict vegan diet.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49771195]Personally I can't take veganism seriously. On an ecological level it is entirely ineffective, animal products are used in practically every industry and are used in the production of many everyday items.
Doing it for health reasons is pointless because you have to take supplements, where a low meat or vegetarian diet would be a much healthier choice as they don't need supplements in the first place. "You can get muscular on a vegan diet." Sure, if you take a load of steroids.
Moral reasons I can't take seriously because it expects us to treat animals on a similar level to Humans, or that somehow all animals are 'equal'. I also find the idea that our own basic anatomical processes being 'immoral' to be ridiculous. Sure the industries involved in growing livestock and producing meat need to be overhauled, but it isn't immoral to eat a steak, nor is it unusual for a farmer to care for the animals he is raising for food.
My views on veganism were probably soured in school, though not changed as I never really liked it. I had a vegan teacher who I would often get into arguments with because she loathed hunting, and I went hunting quite a bit at the time.[/QUOTE]
I visited a nutritionist on Monday. She was on the same page with me on that veganism is kinda futile since there is a fair bit of insects and small animals that end up in the harvesters.
[QUOTE=Kaelnukem;49769022]As for the muscle mass, that is a very common myth that is perpetuated everywhere. Believe it or not, you can become quite an accomplished athlete and be vegan at the same time.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19678968"]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19678968[/URL]
[URL="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10584048"]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10584048[/URL]
These are just the first two studies I found that points to plant protein being less efficient for building and regenerating muscle mass. I won't go as far as saying it's impossible to become an accomplished athlete, the guy you mentioned could very well be telling the truth. It's not a myth that the protein is different though.
It's great that they are testing your vitamin levels. You seem to have put a lot of thought into this, I have presented my case pretty well and I can see that what I'm writing won't change your mind. Best of luck to you.
lab grown meat will come about and be used on a mass scale before veganism goes mainstream, and tbh labgrown meats will make it so veganism will never be mainstream
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