Kurzgesagt: Is the European Union Worth It Or Should We End It? - General

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52106077]I enjoy you still implying things like that 'I claim it's impossible to save the whole context of a culture' as if there could be doubt in that because it is actually impossible, as I've demonstrated and you've failed to rebuff. And for good reason: It's impossible. Where did I say people were terrified of learning about their old cultures? I said they were disinterested -- that other cultures have more relevant appeal because they more fit the context those people find themselves in now. (Remember? 'Survival of the most appealing'?) Also that it's not about opportunity - there's plenty of opportunity. People simply are either too busy or don't care - and shoving it down their throats won't fix that. Your goalposts have forever been 'I want to prevent cultural homogenization!'. Well, RB33, about that: To prevent homogenization and 'save' cultures you have two options: Convince them to like their own culture more (somehow, which is especially hard if that culture doesn't work well with their present societal context anymore) or 'save the culture' - which is a very short-handed way of saying 'close all the borders, forbid contact with the outside, and somehow perfectly preserve all the living conditions, religions, economy, relationships, birth/dirth rates, and so forth that the culture sprang into existence from indefinitely until people adopt it again - which may be never but gosh darn it we'll try'.[/QUOTE] The thing i'm getting from you, is that you like the word impossible. I feel you like to use it more often than justified as well. You keep assuming all of this is voluntary and a choice by the minority culture and not some outside influence pressuring them to make changes they rather not do themselves. This culture could simply not be available for the masses to consume, even if some desire is there. Also why do you care so much about that these cultures are hard to preserve? Does it go against your interests or you just debating for the sake of it? [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52106092]I know lots about culture here. I don't want to practice it. You must think me a monster or some impossible creature. You're literally saying "What you say can't be true because what I say is true!" which is so ridiculous for you to call someone else dishonest over.[/QUOTE] He's assuming that people must hate the minority culture and that's why it's failing. I don't see why that has to be the argument he's making. Many cultures have just been less fortunate and oppressed are not like this because of their own will.

holy shit RB33 is still posting, this whole thread is basically kept alive by this one troll for 8 pages There have been multiple really well reasoned arguments for why what he's saying doesn't really make sense, and he's elegantly sidestepped and ignored each in favor of the ones that are easier to keep an argument going against. He's either a troll or a master of ignoring anything that doesn't fit his worldview, either way this is never going to go anywhere.

Allow me to demonstrate what I mean by 'impossible'. It is impossible for you, RB33, to punch the ground so hard that the sun pops like a soap bubble. That's [I]impossible.[/I] I use it precisely when it is relevant - which just so happens to be any time you mention saving an entire culture. Because saving an entire culture is like punching the ground so hard the sun pops like a soap bubble. It's not going to happen. It doesn't matter how much you want it to. It doesn't matter if you think I'm mean for telling you that you can't or that you think 'I don't care' about smaller/less-noteworthy cultures. It simply is not going to occur no matter what resources you throw at it - you're attempting to save something that can't be saved because by its very nature it is [I]contextual and temporal[/I]. To save a culture you would [B]quite literally[/B] have to save the entire world. And not just [I]save it[/I], mind. Save it [I]indefinitely[/I] and [I]perfectly[/I]. Thus: [U]Impossible[/U].

[QUOTE=RB33;52106119]The thing i'm getting from you, is that you like the word impossible. I feel you like to use it more often than justified as well. You keep assuming all of this is voluntary and a choice by the minority culture and not some outside influence pressuring them to make changes they rather not do themselves. This culture could simply not be available for the masses to consume, even if some desire is there. Also why do you care so much about that these cultures are hard to preserve? Does it go against your interests or you just debating for the sake of it? He's assuming that people must hate the minority culture and that's why it's failing. I don't see why that has to be the argument he's making. Many cultures have just been less fortunate and oppressed are not like this because of their own will.[/QUOTE] That's literally not his argument. Try reading. For once in this thread.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52106132]Allow me to demonstrate what I mean by 'impossible'. It is impossible for you, RB33, to punch the ground so hard that the sun pops like a soap bubble. That's [I]impossible.[/I] I use it precisely when it is relevant - which just so happens to be any time you mention saving an entire culture. Because saving an entire culture is like punching the ground so hard the sun pops like a soap bubble. It's not going to happen. It doesn't matter how much you want it to. It doesn't matter if you think I'm mean for telling you that you can't. It simply is not going to occur no matter what resources you throw at it - you're attempting to save something that can't be saved because by its very nature it is [I]contextual and temporal[/I]. To save a culture you would [B]quite literally[/B] have to save the entire world. And not just [I]save it[/I], mind. Save it [I]indefinitely[/I] and [I]perfectly[/I]. Thus: [U]Impossible[/U].[/QUOTE] I haven't said save an entire culture, stop making this up, either you quote me and prove me wrong or give up that claim. I'm tired of this misrepresentation, that it can be this fucking hard to make a simple argument why culture should be preserved. I have repeated myself countless times what I stand for and what I want done, so anyone can stop asking that, just read the thread. I have given you 5 or so questions on economics, growth, stability for the EU, those have gone unanswered. Now you are arguing technicalities on things I never said. Is there anything else I can say, that you can ignore in order to make up your own mind of me?

[quote]either you quote me and prove me wrong or give up that claim. [/quote] You want to prevent homogenization of cultures, right? To do so: You must save the culture. Homogenization [I]will[/I] occur so long as cultures exchange ideas. Even [I]if[/I] you 'preserve' a culture by trying to save what context and artifacts you can - it will [I]still be homogenized[/I] - because, as I wrote above, a culture is temporal and contextual. For it to ever stay perfectly the same and not merge ideas with other cultures - it must remain in a perfect contextual and temporal bubble because it is the [I]people who make up that culture[/I] that provide that culture's context (as well as the situation of that culture in terms of resources, health, and so on). It is those people that decide which ideas are kept and which are killed in their society - not you and not a historian. It doesn't matter if you think people should remember to twirl three times any time they come home to ensure they're no longer covered in rain in their Rain Room - if the people have no use for this concept, it will be discarded and the culture will be homogenized in a direction more useful (e.g. having the habit of bringing an umbrella). What I've been trying to impress on you is that you say you're against homogenization of cultures - but you're not. You're for the preservation of cultural history because if you were actually against the homogenization of cultures you'd be crazy to think you could prevent it. But yet you seem to keep making these ludicrous arguments that seem to hint that no, you really do think you can stop homogenization, and that's why I keep trying to tell you that you really, really, really can't.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52106188]You want to prevent homogenization of cultures, right? To do so: You must save the culture. Homogenization [I]will[/I] occur so long as cultures exchange ideas. Even [I]if[/I] you 'preserve' a culture by trying to save what context and artifacts you can - it will [I]still be homogenized[/I] - because, as I wrote above, a culture is temporal and contextual. For it to ever stay perfectly the same and not merge ideas with other cultures - it must remain in a perfect contextual and temporal bubble.[/QUOTE] I honestly don't know what we are talking about anymore. You're arguing that it's impossible to be perfect, which is nothing I want to achieve. I made my points regarding why culture is important and should be preserved. I don't think there can be anything else to say. I'm not arguing with you how logic works further into the night.

What a joke dude People have been wildly patient with you

It is impossible to be perfect yes; that's why attempting to 'save a culture from homogenization' is just a dream you'll never realize. You're for the preservation of traditions and art - but these do not a culture make as I've said before. To imply that a culture is merely its byproducts belies a fundamental misunderstanding on what a culture [I]is[/I].

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52106235]What a joke dude People have been wildly patient with you[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, what did you expect me to do? This isn't constructive in any way anymore, it's just pointless back and forth over if something is impossible, that I don't even get the meaning of. If we would have gotten something good out of this, it would have been talking about EU policy or something similar. Something, that we might actually agree upon.

We were, the whole time, talking about the EU's policies though - and how they're doing their best to preserve what they can rather than whatever it is that you're arguing they're doing without ever providing evidence for. The EU puts money into particularly attempting to preserve traditions and arts of various cultures; if they did any more than that (say, to 'prevent homogenization') they'd be little more than out-of-touch dictators trying to tell people what they should and shouldn't think and do.

[QUOTE=RB33;52106251]I'm sorry, what did you expect me to do? This isn't constructive in any way anymore, it's just pointless back and forth over if something is impossible, that I don't even get the meaning of. If we would have gotten something good out of this, it would have been talking about EU policy or something similar.[/QUOTE] But we're talking about the fundamental concept of what you're talking about in the first place. EU policy already is to preserve cultures. There's not much of a discussion to be had there as far as anyone at our level of discourse would be concerned about. But the very concept of what you're talking about is something we can discuss in somewhat actionable terms. The very concept of preserving a culture comes down to "What do you mean by 'culture'?" because as far as I have been able to discern you want to preserve the small traditions, some languages, and you call that culture. Well okay, then do that, no one's arguing against that. What people have been repeatedly trying to explain is that at many points in this conversation you have broadened what you mean by culture by wide margins creating situations that would be impossible to save and I do think it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the subject. If I go back to my anecdote about my father, he grew up in farmers country in the 40's in Canada. This meant there was no fruit during off seasons, so there was a culture of preserving food. When rail cars became refrigerated, and those were deployed to the town my dad lived near when he was a kid, that culture started to die off. This whole time people have more or less just been asking "How are you actually planning on stopping such change?" because it is relevant. That is the type of change you would have advocated against in that time frame, so we have to ask, what do you even want at the end of the day because even when you've spelled this out, you've changed your mind down the road about it.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52106265]We were, the whole time, talking about the EU's policies though - and how they're doing their best to preserve what they can rather than whatever it is that you're arguing they're doing without ever providing evidence for. The EU puts money into particularly attempting to preserve traditions and arts of various cultures; if they did any more than that (say, to 'prevent homogenization') they'd be little more than out-of-touch dictators trying to tell people what they should and shouldn't think and do.[/QUOTE] I should provide evidence for something I never claimed the EU was doing? Or do you mean should do? Anyway, let's end it. Regarding your last sentance, I will leave you with this. [QUOTE=RB33;52105836]Why though? Shouldn't the EU serve the people of the union, including minorites?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=RB33;52106289]I should provide evidence for something I never claimed the EU was doing? Or do you mean should do? Anyway, let's end it. Regarding your last sentance, I will leave you with this.[/QUOTE] so you want them to be dictators telling people what to care and not to care about? What do you even want? You keep acting like we've been dismissive or haven't read your posts, but we have, you really have ignored so much of what we say it's fucking startling.

Your claim was that the EU was causing the homogenization of cultures and as such should be discarded. My ultimate counterpoint to this is: The EU is not responsible for that homogenization and said homogenization would occur at the same rate it is now even without the EU. Or do you withdraw that claim after all this time?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52106284]But we're talking about the fundamental concept of what you're talking about in the first place. EU policy already is to preserve cultures. There's not much of a discussion to be had there as far as anyone at our level of discourse would be concerned about. But the very concept of what you're talking about is something we can discuss in somewhat actionable terms. The very concept of preserving a culture comes down to "What do you mean by 'culture'?" because as far as I have been able to discern you want to preserve the small traditions, some languages, and you call that culture. Well okay, then do that, no one's arguing against that. What people have been repeatedly trying to explain is that at many points in this conversation you have broadened what you mean by culture by wide margins creating situations that would be impossible to save and I do think it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the subject. If I go back to my anecdote about my father, he grew up in farmers country in the 40's in Canada. This meant there was no fruit during off seasons, so there was a culture of preserving food. When rail cars became refrigerated, and those were deployed to the town my dad lived near when he was a kid, that culture started to die off. This whole time people have more or less just been asking "How are you actually planning on stopping such change?" because it is relevant. That is the type of change you would have advocated against in that time frame, so we have to ask, what do you even want at the end of the day because even when you've spelled this out, you've changed your mind down the road about it.[/QUOTE] Technology will lead to cultural change, that's undeniable. We don't have a culture of washing cloths with our hands anymore or taking the horse to the store. This kind of techological change will lead to cultural change regardless, i can't tell people "stop using the washing machine, start using your hands again!" and turn it back around. Quality of life improvements are here to say, traditions and culture not dependent on technology are a lot easier to preserve as they don't require an active decrease in life quality, it's just a one off thing, maybe once a year. I can't even imagine some of Firgof's arguments as if kids in school start hating culture, just because they read about it and that some people can't be interested (if I got this wrong, it's because i'm tired) in the culture anymore. This discussion got too complicated than it ever needed to be.

He literally never said hated You have been arguing against no one when you believe he said that. What if they choose as I have to not care?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52106353]He literally never said hated You have been arguing against no one when you believe he said that. What if they choose as I have to not care?[/QUOTE] What about this? [QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105916]You're basically telling people they're not [I]allowed[/I] to [B]not [/B] care about their own culture - that your desire that their culture lives on supercedes their desire to discard it. Forcing an old culture down a new culture's throat will only cause it to distance and [U][B]hate[/B][/U] the older culture even if it didn't do so before.[/QUOTE] Well, tough luck. Try doing all the actions I suggested before, if one haven't done so already.

That's not them hating their culture. That's you making them hate that culture by shoving it down their throats. You ought read my arguments fully if you'd like to get some useful information from them.

[QUOTE=RB33;52106370]What about this? Well, tough luck. Try do all the actions, I suggested before, if one haven't done so already.[/QUOTE] You have poor reading skills. If you force something on people you can cause them to resent it and hate it. That's not really something you can dispute. And then we arrive at the problem. Do you want to force it? You seem to.

I presume he wants to ensure 'everyone has an equal chance at learning their culture' right up to the point where nobody cares - and then he wants to make them care. Somehow.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52106321]Your claim was that the EU was causing the homogenization of cultures and as such should be discarded. My ultimate counterpoint to this is: The EU is not responsible for that homogenization and said homogenization would occur at the same rate it is now even without the EU. Or do you withdraw that claim after all this time?[/QUOTE] I actually didn't mean that either, fully at least. I'm either extremely bad at getting my points across or you're bad at reading, maybe both. The EU cooperation and open borders is contributing to a closer connection of cultures, one which can be sped up further with intentional policies. So, the EU aids this process naturally and it would occur less without it as we would be more isolated.

[quote]The EU cooperation and open borders is contributing to a closer connection of cultures[/quote] But it isn't. The internet is. If you abolished the EU entirely tomorrow cultures would still homogenize at near exactly the same rate. The homogenization comes from people coming into contact with other ideas. That doesn't require people traveling to other places; in fact, I imagine that's one of the rarer ways for ideas to spread in this information age.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52106382]That's not them hating their culture. That's you making them hate that culture by shoving it down their throats. You ought read my arguments fully if you'd like to get some useful information from them.[/QUOTE] Yeah, and they hate math the same way by teaching them it in school. Why is teaching culture anymore "forcing it down someone's throat" than math or anything else? [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52106386]You have poor reading skills. If you force something on people you can cause them to resent it and hate it. That's not really something you can dispute. And then we arrive at the problem. Do you want to force it? You seem to.[/QUOTE] So kids hate everything they learn in school? Is it worse giving them some lessons in culture than everything else?

[quote]Yeah, and they hate math the same way by teaching them it in school.[/quote] You're funny - but don't quit your day job. They don't hate it in nearly the same way. Which would you hate more? Something that's at least somewhat useful to you in your daily life - or something that bears no relevance to you at all? Also, one is a life skill; the other is trying to teach something that's utterly irrelevant to many people.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52106437]You're funny - but don't quit your day job. They don't hate it in nearly the same way. Which would you hate more? Something that's at least somewhat useful to you in your daily life - or something that bears no relevance to you at all? Also, one is a life skill; the other is trying to teach something that's utterly irrelevant to many people.[/QUOTE] You can't argue against someone who don't value culture with cultural arguments, lesson learned. You don't care and will never be convinced. [editline]15th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52106410]I presume he wants to ensure 'everyone has an equal chance at learning their culture' right up to the point where nobody cares - and then he wants to make them care. Somehow.[/QUOTE] Yeah, and lots of people don't care about school. As a result they fail, or we make them care? Which one should we do? I also find it funny that you keep assuming the worst case scenario in all your examples, that no one ever cares.

You think I don't value culture? Despite me saying earlier that it was noble to try and preserve what you could? Despite all this argumentation? Nah, I know you know I value culture. You just want to be right so now you're just making stuff up so that it's easier for you to throw my argument away. Easier to throw that argument away when you dress me up as someone who doesn't really care about the subject matter right? If that's the low you're going to stoop too though, that's fine with me. Please, enjoy your 'victory' - it's obvious you no longer care what I have to say and are willing to say anything to 'keep the high ground' here.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52106486]You think I don't value culture? Despite me saying earlier that it was noble to try and preserve what you could? Despite all this argumentation? Nah, I know you know I value culture. You just want to be right so now you're just making stuff up so that it's easier for you to throw my argument away. Easier to throw that argument away when you dress me up as someone who doesn't really care about the subject matter right?[/QUOTE] You argued with me for 2 pages about what I may have tried to achieve is impossible, how that is valuing culture, i don't know. Maybe, just the culture you favour in particular. Except, that one phrase. You have only argued against whatever I said and you're still ignoring certain questions of mine. Why is it that your examples are the worst case scenario, where everyone is apathetic? No kids actually interested in their grandparents culture or that it will be "forcing it down their throat" to just be talking about it in school. That people are happy to abandon this culture when that is far from always being the case. [QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52106486]Please, enjoy your 'victory' - it's obvious you no longer care what I have to say and are willing to say anything to 'keep the high ground' here.[/QUOTE] I take no joy in this, the only discussions I take joy in are the ones where we can agree with each other.

"I'm only happy when everyone thinks I'm right"

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52106564]"I'm only happy when everyone thinks I'm right"[/QUOTE] No, I can make compromises when I feel they are reasonable. The importance of protecting and safeguarding the independence of diverse cultures is high up of my list of things, that I care too much about to change my position. I'm sure other people have similar unmovable stances, such as free speech and even gun rights. If you don't believe me, try debate me in anything else.