Kurzgesagt: Is the European Union Worth It Or Should We End It? - General

You really should change your position cause refusing to do so out of passion isn't noble that's just dumb

[QUOTE=RB33;52106445]Yeah, and lots of people don't care about school. As a result they fail, or we make them care? Which one should we do?[/QUOTE] Are you actually suggesting that we [b]make[/b] people care about the parts of their culture that are unimportant to them? Because this post really makes you look like you are and is starting to sound dangerously close to those Soviets you love to keep bringing up. Also, this comparison to school, especially to math and language, is asinine. Yeah sure, having those classes be mandatory may make some students hate the subject, but they teach skills that are [b]absolutely required[/b] to be able to function in society. Not knowing the ins and outs of their culture, especially the parts that are dying or they simply don't care about, isn't really going to negatively affect their lives.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52107682]You really should change your position cause refusing to do so out of passion isn't noble that's just dumb[/QUOTE] You still haven't provided me with arguments that somehow lessening the importance of culture, somehow improves people's lives, so i'm not convinced otherwise. This one in particular: [QUOTE=MrJazzy;52100135]I like this post, it's a good example of somebody caring more about a vague idea of cultural identity than the lives of the people who live and die in poverty as a result of others refusal to let go of said idea.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Jacen;52107815]Are you actually suggesting that we [b]make[/b] people care about the parts of their culture that are unimportant to them? Because this post really makes you look like you are and is starting to sound dangerously close to those Soviets you love to keep bringing up. Also, this comparison to school, especially to math and language, is asinine. Yeah sure, having those classes be mandatory may make some students hate the subject, but they teach skills that are [b]absolutely required[/b] to be able to function in society. Not knowing the ins and outs of their culture, especially the parts that are dying or they simply don't care about, isn't really going to negatively affect their lives.[/QUOTE] We might consider anything learn in school, not to be important to us until one day, we have use of it. Why is culture different? Schools teaches a lot of things you will never use in your daily life, culture may actually be something you will use. We already teach history, don't we, it isn't even that large of a difference to start learning some cultural tradition and maybe try some craftsmanship. I think you're seriously overreacting to how bad this would be.

Only one overreacting is yourself. You're blowing this way out of proportion.

For someone who cares so much about swedish culture and heritage, you do seem to write in English a lot. Like I've never understood that logic. "I care so much and so deeply about my culture, I'll never tell anyone about why I think it's special, never share it with others, never try to have others experience it, it's only mine mine mine mine mine. Oooo, tikka masala!"

[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52108102]Only one overreacting is yourself. You're blowing this way out of proportion.[/QUOTE] Well, tell me I were mistaken when Marbalo said cultural identities was an acceptable collateral victim and that he didn't mean erasing culture for a unified Europe, then were fine. That is the one real issue, I got. [QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52108105]For someone who cares so much about swedish culture and heritage, you do seem to write in English a lot. Like I've never understood that logic. "I care so much and so deeply about my culture, I'll never tell anyone about why I think it's special, never share it with others, never try to have others experience it, it's only mine mine mine mine mine. Oooo, tikka masala!"[/QUOTE] Maybe, because it's an English forum, ever thought about that? I see those I argue with are as much fans of generalizing statements as I might have been in this thread at times. I also don't see how your statement even applies one bit to what i've said.

[QUOTE=RB33;52108331]Well, tell me I were mistaken when Marbalo said cultural identities was an acceptable collateral victim and that he didn't mean erasing culture for a unified Europe, then were fine. That is the one real issue, I got. Maybe, because it's an English forum, ever thought about that? I see those I argue with are as much fans of generalizing statements as I might have been in this thread at times. I also don't see how your statement even applies one bit to what i've said.[/QUOTE] I mean this has clearly been difficult for you to realize but [B]none of us are marbolo and arguing with us like we are arguing for him is just flat out fucking wrong.[/B] Please, for the love of fuck stop acting like his posts = our posts. They don't. You've spent a whole thread literally obsessed with one set of posts by one dude a few days ago that you literally let it colour the entire conversation you had with anyone else because you refused to believe that they don't want what he wants. You spent an entire two pages thinking someone said "Hate culture" when they never fucking did. You need to just slow your roll.

I don't even see how marbolo was arguing for killing off cultures, all he said was that "because culture" is not a good enough reason to oppose EU and progress.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52108630]I don't even see how marbolo was arguing for killing off cultures, all he said was that "because culture" is not a good enough reason to oppose EU and progress.[/QUOTE] He said it were an acceptable collateral victim for progress, i'm sure Stalin thought the same about Ukrainians, Tatars and so on. You don't have to be a genius to see why that rhetoric is uncomfortable. Being Pro-EU doesn't excuse it anymore that it would for any other ideology.

[QUOTE=RB33;52108660]He said it were an acceptable collateral victim for progress, i'm sure Stalin thought the same about Ukrainians, Tatars and so on. You don't have to be genius to see why that rhetoric is uncomfortable.[/QUOTE] You also have to be pretty intellectually dishonest to use it as ammo as you are as it's 1) baseless 2) emotional appeal Unless you have proof the EU, who funds cultural preservation programs is the same as Stalinist russia in regards to that? Oh, you don't have anything? Damn, you've wasted a fuck ton of time arguing something that literally, and I do mean the most dictionary definition of "Literally" no one has ever suggested here.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52108610]I mean this has clearly been difficult for you to realize but [B]none of us are marbolo and arguing with us like we are arguing for him is just flat out fucking wrong.[/B] Please, for the love of fuck stop acting like his posts = our posts. They don't. You've spent a whole thread literally obsessed with one set of posts by one dude a few days ago that you literally let it colour the entire conversation you had with anyone else because you refused to believe that they don't want what he wants. You spent an entire two pages thinking someone said "Hate culture" when they never fucking did. You need to just slow your roll.[/QUOTE] If you don't agree with him, why are you arguing against me when my entire argument was against his to begin with. You kept making this discussion broader than I ever intended, that lead to me arguing different points all over the place. Can we at least agree on that the EU shouldn't be used to push intentional policies to make European culture become closer together? That cultures should just do this naturally. [QUOTE=Marbalo;52108666]This is exactly what I have been saying.[/QUOTE] Also saying that identities were basically only good for aggressive nationalism and saying that it was just something vague. When there is large amounts of depth to them. [editline]15th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52108670]You also have to be pretty intellectually dishonest to use it as ammo as you are as it's 1) baseless 2) emotional appeal Unless you have proof the EU, who funds cultural preservation programs is the same as Stalinist russia in regards to that? Oh, you don't have anything? Damn, you've wasted a fuck ton of time arguing something that literally, and I do mean the most dictionary definition of "Literally" no one has ever suggested here.[/QUOTE] I'm not using it as ammo against the EU, but against the idea itself, that I interpreted Marbolo to represent somewhat. If take you what he said and turn it up a notch, you will get rhetoric pretty similar to fascism. That's anti pretty much everything the EU should stand for. I never thought that this was something the EU would do, just that some people might actually support something like that. My arguments was against those people. To me, it seemed people weren't that opposed to it. People did claim progress was important and such as I were arguing that culture shouldn't be sidelined by progress.

[QUOTE=RB33;52108660]He said it were an acceptable collateral victim for progress, i'm sure Stalin thought the same about Ukrainians, Tatars and so on. You don't have to be a genius to see why that rhetoric is uncomfortable. Being Pro-EU doesn't excuse it anymore that it would for any other ideology.[/QUOTE] The soviet union killed of cultures in order to push their own Russian culture, hitler did it to push their German culture, that's not what happens in the EU, it doesn't favour one culture while suppressing others and that's not gonna change. [editline]15th April 2017[/editline] I see where you are coming from but there's a difference between being okay with culture changing and wanting a specific culture to be the only culture.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52108834]The soviet union killed of cultures in order to push their own Russian culture, hitler did it to push their German culture, that's not what happens in the EU, it doesn't favour one culture while suppressing others and that's not gonna change. [editline]15th April 2017[/editline] I see where you are coming from but there's a difference between being okay with culture changing and wanting a specific culture to be the only culture.[/QUOTE] Yes, but the result of national identities disappearing is a common European identity, that was what I meant with the blob. With no identities to create borders, the cultures will start merging.

They [I]already fucking did[/I]. The borders of European countries have never been hardly defined, most of them are entirely artificial and are ultimately the result of thousands of years of conquest and the rise and fall of empires. The common European identity had existed long before the EU, the EU simply made it easier to realize that there wasn't a point in fighting one another over nothing considering we share more than we differ on. Is this about something else? Is this about the immigrants or something? Because I honestly can't believe this thread is gonna go into 10 pages of "but the culture!" rants.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;52108951]They [I]already fucking did[/I]. The borders of European countries have never been hardly defined, most of them are entirely artificial and are ultimately the result of thousands of years of conquest and the rise and fall of empires. The common European identity had existed long before the EU, the EU simply made it easier to realize that there wasn't a point in fighting one another over nothing considering we share more than we differ on. Is this about something else? Is this about the immigrants or something? Because I honestly can't believe this thread is gonna go into 10 pages of "but the culture!" rants.[/QUOTE] What are you talking about? There still isn't a common European identity among most people and it's still very new. Europe's borders have mostly been across ethnic borders the last 100-150 years. Most of Europe's borders are no longer artificial, even if they might have started that way. "Is this about the immigrants or something?" If it is, can you prove it? Nothing about this have been about immigrants.

[QUOTE=RB33;52108689]If you don't agree with him, why are you arguing against me when my entire argument was against his to begin with. You kept making this discussion broader than I ever intended, that lead to me arguing different points all over the place. Can we at least agree on that the EU shouldn't be used to push intentional policies to make European culture become closer together? That cultures should just do this naturally. Also saying that identities were basically only good for aggressive nationalism and saying that it was just something vague. When there is large amounts of depth to them. [editline]15th April 2017[/editline] I'm not using it as ammo against the EU, but against the idea itself, that I interpreted Marbolo to represent somewhat. If take you what he said and turn it up a notch, you will get rhetoric pretty similar to fascism. That's anti pretty much everything the EU should stand for. I never thought that this was something the EU would do, just that some people might actually support something like that. My arguments was against those people. To me, it seemed people weren't that opposed to it. People did claim progress was important and such as I were arguing that culture shouldn't be sidelined by progress.[/QUOTE] Like I've said this whole thread If you were alive in my dads time, you'd be screaming about that killing a culture of preservation and farming, but you weren't, so you don't. Progress is important, and all progress is, is accumulated change. Like your flat out instance that if a kid were to learn about something, they'd practice it is ridiculous. You know that i know my own culture, right? Do you recognize that I simply don't want to practice it as a valid response? No. You've clearly stated that isn't a valid response from a member of a culture. It's ridiculous for you to be concerned about the so called cultural facsism of a group that sponsors cultural preservation efforts while being yourself, a form of cultural fascist.

[QUOTE=RB33;52098311]Let's just lump together into a big booring cultural blob, where no one is unique over time. That would be the most wasteful and tragic thing to happen in modern times.[/QUOTE] that'd be the best thing to happen tbh look at canada for example where you can just be whatever, no bullshit about "ethnicity" or stuff like that. you just coexist with everyone else

[QUOTE=RB33;52109079]What are you talking about? There still isn't a common European identity among most people and it's still very new. Europe's borders have mostly been across ethnic borders the last 100-150 years. Most of Europe's borders are no longer artificial, even if they might have started that way. "Is this about the immigrants or something?" If it is, can you prove it? Nothing about this have been about immigrants.[/QUOTE] So if there's no common european blob for you to fear [B]what have you been fear mongering about this whole fucking time?[/B] [editline]15th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Saturn V;52109274]that'd be the best thing to happen tbh look at canada for example where you can just be whatever, no bullshit about "ethnicity" or stuff like that. you just coexist with everyone else[/QUOTE] He's clearly refused to use any other cultural paradigm than his own to judge everything about this discussion

i just dont see how you can delude yourself into thinking that cultures will mix into one fuck no that'll never happen as long as there exists at least 2 people on this planet there will be at least 2 different cultures

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52109270]Like I've said this whole thread If you were alive in my dads time, you'd be screaming about that killing a culture of preservation and farming, but you weren't, so you don't. Progress is important, and all progress is, is accumulated change. Like your flat out instance that if a kid were to learn about something, they'd practice it is ridiculous. You know that i know my own culture, right? Do you recognize that I simply don't want to practice it as a valid response? No. You've clearly stated that isn't a valid response from a member of a culture. It's ridiculous for you to be concerned about the so called cultural facsism of a group that sponsors cultural preservation efforts while being yourself, a form of cultural fascist.[/QUOTE] Saying some culture has to go because you need to achieve progress isn't always true though. I said earlier that there are some traditions technology made obsolete 50-100 years ago but people still do them. They aren't someting that hinders progress. No, I didn't say they will practice it. I said it was to make them aware of it, which they often aren't. They get to choose themselves whether or not to continue with it. Not a single one of you have acknowledged that they might not have to been able to due to legal restrictions or cultural pressure, but still want to.

[QUOTE=RB33;52109317]Saying some culture has to go because[/QUOTE] but dude cultures arent "going", they're evolving

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52109280]So if there's no common european blob for you to fear [B]what have you been fear mongering about this whole fucking time?[/B][/QUOTE] There isn't one right now, but that's why i'm making an argument against intentionally creating one in the future. That's what this has been about since the beginning. [QUOTE][editline]15th April 2017[/editline] He's clearly refused to use any other cultural paradigm than his own to judge everything about this discussion[/QUOTE] No, I have used lots cultures as inspiration in my arguments. The legal descrimination and historically involuntary diminishing of the Sami culture, the near-extinct languages and cultures of Romania, my own cultural traditions and the regional languages of France and Germany. All deserving equal protection. [editline]15th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Saturn V;52109321]but dude cultures arent "going", they're evolving[/QUOTE] So Italians are still Romans, Americans still British? They will evolve to a point, where we a draw a line and say this is something new and not the same as it was 500 years ago.

[QUOTE=RB33;52109348]So Italians are still Romans, Americans still British? They will evolve to a point, where we a draw a line and say this is something new and not the same as it was 500 years ago.[/QUOTE] uhh yeah, that's exactly how it works you evolve and evolve until you're something different, nothing wrong with that do you seriously think modern swedish culture is in any way similar to how it was a few hundred years ago?

[QUOTE=Saturn V;52109374]uhh yeah, that's exactly how it works you evolve and evolve until you're something different, nothing wrong with that do you seriously think modern swedish culture is in any way similar to how it was a few hundred years ago?[/QUOTE] No, but when you like something, you want to keep it. It doesn't matter if it will be gone after your lifetime, you still want to stick with it. Is is that strange?

[QUOTE=RB33;52109383]No, but when you like something, you want to keep it. It doesn't matter if it will be gone after your lifetime, you still want to stick with it. Is is that strange?[/QUOTE] seriously you keep going on about stuff like how french cuisine will no longer be "french" but european cuisine IT ALREADY IS LIKE THAT france is in europe, thus french cuisine is european cuisine for example i mean nothing is being dismantled here dude. im pretty sure there are lots of differences between british columbian and manitoban cultures but they're still both canadian cultures i mean small towns like 50km away from each other have their own cultures as well so uhhh dude nothings gonna change

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52109398]Indeed it is Cultures change and being so scared of it makes you a nostalgic idiotic conservative who has his head up the clouds, drowning in his delusions of how his current culture is so great and how what will come after it will surely be terrible[/QUOTE] Tell that to the children who dress up every year for the local village tradition that has been going on for 150 years, tell that to young Sami people who never got to speak their native language because of discrimination. I want you to tell them that, that they are just some idiotic conservatives for just wanting to be a part of their history.

I don't see what's wrong with a natural evolution towards a unified European culture. The unification of Europe is pretty much inevitable and doesn't really mean you'll lose whatever it is that you hold dear enough that you would stifle a group of countries both economically and societally for.

[QUOTE=RB33;52103743]US states has always had very similar cultures, shared the same language and all have traditions from the same origin. It's not comparable to Europe.[/QUOTE] you keep worrying about how others will undermine your culture but here you are doing the very same thing to others that is extremely insulting

[QUOTE=ZombieWaffle;52109421]I don't see what's wrong with a natural evolution towards a unified European culture. The unification of Europe is pretty much inevitable and doesn't really mean you'll lose whatever it is that you hold dear enough that you would stifle a group of countries both economically and societally for.[/QUOTE] For the last time, a non-dystopic EU is possible. I never said it has to end up like this, but when people start posting questionable statements about lessening culture, because they are afraid of it and don't know what it is, then you should argue against it. That sort of damaging rhetoric shouldn't stand unopposed. I would argue that it actually divides us further. I rather we decentralized the EU, so that we can keep our cultures. Because marginal improvements to the economy and a more centralized and undemocratic leadership isn't worth it.

You have yet to show literally one example of the EU affecting culture. It's been nearly 10 pages and you have yet to show [I]one[/I] fucking concrete example of the EU causing the death of any European culture.