Kurzgesagt: Is the European Union Worth It Or Should We End It? - General

[QUOTE=RB33;52099501]How many European immigrants still speak their ancestors language? If it's low, then it's not that accepting and multicultural. Yes and if people don't defend their languages, we might only be able to speak English or whatever European lingua franca. Would that be a good thing? If you're making centralization at the cost of culture, doesn't that involve a bit of force. There will be people against it and you're giving them no choice.[/QUOTE] They voluntarily give it up when they come here and become American. What I'm saying is that that doesn't necessarily mean "homogenous boring blob." Whether that's a good thing or not depends on the people and what they want. If they want to abandon their native language, so be it. I don't think they should, and instead should keep their native language and learn the lingua franca alongside it as many already do. For example, you'll be hard pressed to find a swede, norwegian, etc. in their 20s that doesn't basically have a near native-level fluency in English. And if they want to come do a business deal in America, they'll come speak English, but if I want to go work in those countries and become one of them, I'll have to learn their language and culture. I find that to be the ideal way for a culture to survive in a cosmopolitan society. [QUOTE=RB33;52099560]So if we're all speaking one language, some kind of mix of between all European languages, that would be fine? No unique features in another language and a Finn would celebrate all the same traditions as someone from Malta, a Scotsman would do the exact same thing as an Bulgarian. We would lose lots of things that make us interesting.[/QUOTE] Not really. I again point at America. Different regions will have different customs and different holidays.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;52099538]why do you keep trying to equate any sort of cultural development over time with forced assimilation?[/QUOTE] You're not going to convince everyone that it's a good thing, some will always oppose development, especially if it's done artificially. It's will be a assimilation to what will be a mostly unified European culture in the end. There will be pressure for those haven't accepted it to assimilate. It stops being natural when you start pushing for it.

[QUOTE=RB33;52099567]You're not going to convince everyone that it's a good thing, some will always oppose development, especially if it's done artificially. It's will be a assimilation to what will be a mostly unified European culture in the end. There will be pressure for those haven't accepted it to assimilate. It stops being natural when you start pushing for it.[/QUOTE] no one's pushing for it though?

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52099563]They voluntarily give it up when they come here and become American. What I'm saying is that that doesn't necessarily mean "homogenous boring blob." Whether that's a good thing or not depends on the people and what they want. If they want to abandon their native language, so be it. I don't think they should, and instead should keep their native language and learn the lingua franca alongside it as many already do. For example, you'll be hard pressed to find a swede, norwegian, etc. in their 20s that doesn't basically have a near native-level fluency in English. And if they want to come do a business deal in America, they'll come speak English, but if I want to go work in those countries and become one of them, I'll have to learn their language and culture. I find that to be the ideal way for a culture to survive in a cosmopolitan society.[/QUOTE] Not everyone gave it up completely voluntarily, there were some intense pressure at times. Lingua francas are good, increases understanding across borders but shouldn't be a replacement for whatever native language there is. [QUOTE]Not really. I again point at America. Different regions will have different customs and different holidays.[/QUOTE] Many of whom have lost their languages and have watered down versions of the customs. It's one thing if immigrants does that, but when an entire culture becomes like that. Shouldn't we strive to keep the diversity and what's unique among us?

[QUOTE=RB33;52099560]So if we're all speaking one language, some kind of mix of between all European languages, that would be fine? No unique features in another language and a Finn would celebrate all the same traditions as someone from Malta, a Scotsman would do the exact same thing as an Bulgarian. We would lose lots of things that make us interesting.[/QUOTE] Setting aside the fact that this would simply not happen on the scale you suggest... I'm sure plenty was lost once we stopped making longbows, and craftsmen could no longer pass this knowledge down to their kids. Or when we got to the industrial revolution, and the unsafe environment of factories, plus the insanely long work hours, tore people's lives apart. What about when cars got popularized, did we not lose a lot, culturally, from no longer relying on horses, them being such a massive part of many countries' cultural histories and all? Some things get lost along the way. That's natural. It's also natural to be sad if what's lost is something you like. But remember those "hundreds of years of progress in cultural development" you value so much? I value them too, it's just that I don't arbitrarily place them above our current cultural developments.

I like how they did a section of their video in the style of the original F-Zero

[QUOTE=RB33;52099617]Not everyone gave it up completely voluntarily, there were some intense pressure at times. Lingua francas are good, increases understanding across borders but shouldn't be a replacement for whatever native language there is. Many of whom have lost their languages and have watered down versions of the customs. It's one thing if immigrants does that, but when an entire culture becomes like that. Shouldn't we strive to keep the diversity and what's unique among us?[/QUOTE] You keep insisting on homogenous boring blob though. Idk seems like we want the same thing tbh and are just split on the EU lol. Also depends on what you mean by keep. Cultures change, take from, etc.and always have. You wouldn't have swedish culture if it didn't grab shit from so many places beforehand.

[QUOTE=lockdown6;52098658]the fact that the EU doesn't have a singular leader makes it harder for that to happen[/QUOTE] I thought I was replying to a post about a single-state Europe but that was bad reading on my part. Sorry. [editline]13th April 2017[/editline] Actually maybe I got it right the first time, I'm not sure. That post is a bit all over the place.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52099696]You keep insisting on homogenous boring blob though. Idk seems like we want the same thing tbh and are just split on the EU lol. Also depends on what you mean by keep. Cultures change, take from, etc.and always have. You wouldn't have swedish culture if it didn't grab shit from so many places beforehand.[/QUOTE] If we keep doing that, we won't have unique cultures left. Because we combined everything into one large culture. It's one thing to take 1000 cultures and combine them into 100 or 50, that has already happened. The next step is taking those 100-50 and getting even fewer, if borders between them are not respected and we lose that uniqueness. EU will do it even if we don't want to do, it's inevitable with centralization. The question is if we should be speed it up, slow it down or just let it take the time it does. Or as some want, leave the EU entirely, because that's not something they want to lose. I should clarify, it won't happen next year, 10 years but probably in about 100 or 150 years depending on how much centralization and everything you push for.

[QUOTE=RB33;52099758]If we keep doing that, we won't have unique cultures left. Because we combined everything into one large culture. It's one thing to take 1000 cultures and combine them into 100 or 50, that has already happened. The next step is taking those 100-50 and getting even fewer, if borders between them are not respected and we lose that uniqueness. EU will do it even if we don't want to do, it's inevitable with centralization. The question is if we should be speed it up, slow it down or just let it take the time it does. Or as some want, leave the EU entirely, because that's not something they want to lose.[/QUOTE] I see this as purely speculative. Why should cultures disappear just because they share government and have open borders? You could just as easily say bringing different people together enriches cultures because the constant stream of people coming and going means you always have someone to share your culture with, reinforcing especially the better aspects of it. What you see as a watering down is nothing more than a social evolution. That doesn't necessarily mean your own slice of life gets lost in the wake.

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;52099803]I see this as purely speculative. Why should cultures disappear just because they share government and have open borders? You could just as easily say bringing different people together enriches cultures because the constant stream of people coming and going means you always have someone to share your culture with, reinforcing especially the better aspects of it. What you see as a watering down is nothing more than a social evolution. That doesn't necessarily mean your own slice of life gets lost in the wake.[/QUOTE] Because they mix until they eventually become one larger culture. With internet, open borders and standardized education, this can go incredibly fast. Especially if you get a government wanting this to happen, they can take advantage of technology and progress to spread it further and faster than ever possible before.

A united Earth should be our endgame, no?

[QUOTE=RB33;52099830]Because they mix until they eventually become one larger culture. With internet, open borders and standardized education, this can go incredibly fast. Especially if you get a government wanting this to happen, they can take advantage of technology and progress to spread it further and faster than ever possible before.[/QUOTE] prove it

[QUOTE=DeEz;52099831]A united Earth should be our endgame, no?[/QUOTE] Yes but everyone speaking the same things and acting with the same cultural values and traditions would be incredibly booring and tiring. [editline]13th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=DOG-GY;52099834]prove it[/QUOTE] French, German, Swedish, Arabic, Chinese. What was once hundreds of varities have decreased and are now mostly the same due to the things, I said. Some of them due to intentional government actions.

[QUOTE=RB33;52099835]Yes but everyone speaking the same things and acting with the same cultural values and traditions would be incredibly booring and tiring.[/QUOTE] If you studied any sort of social science you would know it would be completely impossible to force one single monotonous culture across the global. New cultures would sprout up all over as a part of natural social evolution.

Really wish kurzgesagt could go back to science videos rather than [del]propaganda[/del] hot-button debate topics

[QUOTE=RB33;52099835]French, German, Swedish, Arabic, Chinese. What was once hundreds of varities have decreased and are now mostly the same due to the things, I said. Some of them due to intentional government actions.[/QUOTE] Are you saying the dialects have blended?

[QUOTE=DeEz;52099843]If you studied any sort of social science you would know it would be completely impossible to force one single monotonous culture across the global. New cultures would sprout up all over as a part of natural social evolution.[/QUOTE] Cultures so unique that they would be impossible for others to understand or just subcultures with some unique features? Unless constructed, it would be unlikely for it to be that far from the standard language and culture.

[QUOTE=Marbalo;52099848]Your point rests on absolute nonsense. How is a different flag and government going, in any way, change the way people live? Their culture, habits, family traditions, [I]anything? [/I] As long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of those surrounding it, there is no reason for the culture to disappear at the hands of the state. No one is going to lose their cultural identity or uniqueness, you completely made this point up and backed it with nothing but your own personal presumptions. France will continue to be France, Germany will continue to be Germany. History isn't going to just disappear and cultural identity will run its natural course [I]regardless [/I]of the unification of Europe. The only difference is that the culture has a chance to thrive in economic prosperity and financial liberty. With better infrastructure and better social services. Cultures aren't going to disappear just because, suddenly, the currency people use is differently colored and has different images imprinted on them than the ones before.[/QUOTE] People will interact more closely and share their culture, as such some parts of their culture will become more similar. If you add intentional policies to bring this further upon that, how long until you get a unified culture? You were the one saying it was worth it, I don't think people will ever just accept that anytime in the near future. So why are you saying it won't happen now?

[QUOTE=DeEz;52099831]A united Earth should be our endgame, no?[/QUOTE] I'd rather have options than only one huge federation on Earth. I want somewhere else to go if things go bad. Until we hypothetically figure out and maintain some sort of objectively perfect set of laws and system of government we need variety.

[QUOTE=RB33;52099887]People will interact more closely and share their culture, as such some parts of their culture will become more similar. If you add intentional policies to bring this further upon that, how long until you get a unified culture? You were the one saying it was worth it, I don't think people will ever just accept that anytime in the near future. So why are you saying it won't happen now?[/QUOTE] good thing it won't ever happen in the near future lol do you really think that culture is just magically related to whatever government is on top? like yeah i'm sure the US government had a lot of late nights trying to invent jazz

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;52099853]Are you saying the dialects have blended?[/QUOTE] Dialects were once their own cultures, until one of them got themselves an army and a country and declared itself a national language. The others have had to adapt to that, French regional languages are pretty dead, i've heard, Germany's are dying. Arabic displaced previous native language and became the new major language by the ruling powers. China is doing that now, i think.

[QUOTE=Kljunas;52099899]I'd rather have options than only one huge federation on Earth. I want somewhere else to go if things go bad. Until we hypothetically figure out and maintain some sort of objectively perfect set of laws and system of government we need variety.[/QUOTE] I am not talking about systems of government

[QUOTE=RB33;52099911]Dialects were once their own cultures, until one of them got themselves an army and a country and declared itself a national language. The others have had to adapt to that, French regional languages are pretty dead, i've heard, Germany's are dying. Arabic displaced previous native language and became the new major language by the ruling powers. China is doing that now, i think.[/QUOTE] Ok so prove that merging dialects necessarily destroys culture.

[QUOTE=Mining Bill;52099910]good thing it won't ever happen in the near future lol do you really think that culture is just magically related to whatever government is on top? like yeah i'm sure the US government had a lot of late nights trying to invent jazz[/QUOTE] Culture doesn't come form government, but it can be influenced by decisions government makes. A lot of what made the 20's so interesting comes from prohibition.

[QUOTE=Mining Bill;52099910]good thing it won't ever happen in the near future lol do you really think that culture is just magically related to whatever government is on top? like yeah i'm sure the US government had a lot of late nights trying to invent jazz[/QUOTE] It depends on what government you have. EU federalists exist, they want Europe to be one country with one national government. What's to say that government doesn't want further unifiction with a common language and culture? It doesn't have to be like that but it's possible. National movements existed to unite countries we see today, Germany, Italy, Yugoslavia (attempted), China. So why can't there be a European movement for the same goals of cultural unification?

[QUOTE=RB33;52099887]People will interact more closely and share their culture, as such some parts of their culture will become more similar. If you add intentional policies to bring this further upon that, how long until you get a unified culture? You were the one saying it was worth it, I don't think people will ever just accept that anytime in the near future. So why are you saying it won't happen now?[/QUOTE] A fully homogenized culture is only possible in microstates, and even then it's not guaranteed. The bigger a country gets, the more its people will vary in terms of lifestyle, job opportunities, living conditions, and population density. Culture cannot be homogenized beyond that point without access to a literally infinite amount of resources, which nobody has.

[QUOTE=RB33;52099887]People will interact more closely and share their culture, as such some parts of their culture will become more similar. If you add intentional policies to bring this further upon that, how long until you get a unified culture? You were the one saying it was worth it, I don't think people will ever just accept that anytime in the near future. So why are you saying it won't happen now?[/QUOTE] what the fuck is even the point of this conversation you're essentially just copy pasting your earlier posts at this point, never addressing any of the relevant arguments people are bringing up. how is it someone so keen on keeping things ~interesting~ has such a one-note mentality?

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;52099950]what the fuck is even the point of this conversation you're essentially just copy pasting your earlier posts at this point, never addressing any of the relevant arguments people are bringing up. how is it someone so keen on keeping things ~interesting~ has such a one-note mentality?[/QUOTE] basically boils down to being afraid of those gash darn foreigners

[QUOTE=Xubs;52099931]The "destruction" of lingual and dialect differences seems far more guided by information technology than anything the government ever did. The spread of instantaneous information is less efficient if not everyone can understand each other. That's why you right now are speaking English and not Swedish.[/QUOTE] Sure, now it is. But not historically, governments used to heavily crackdown on non-standard speech and culture. That's why much of cultural value have been lost. Is there anything to stop it from happening again, if they could get away with it and there enough support to keep it going despite opposition?