Kurzgesagt: Is the European Union Worth It Or Should We End It? - General

[QUOTE=RB33;52101232]Thousands of years of developing into the language it is today, starting with farmers seeking north for more places to live, rise of the vikings and a culture of traveling abroad to raid and colonize other land. A christianisation during the middle ages and standardisation as a culture over the last hundreds of years. With borrowings of words and phrases of other cultures. All while keeping some traditions from the middle ages and beyond. If your point is that it's the same thing, just on a smaller scale. There may come a point, where further centralization of culture is enough. When we just want to keep what we got and not assimilate into a larger, European culture. Some people rather not do that, so why pressure them to? .[/QUOTE] So at no point in that did aspects of a culture die? [editline]13th April 2017[/editline] You're saying that to create your culture today, nothing was lost, forgotten, or given up to history?

That's a small dialect from over a hundred years ago, and I'll bet most examples you find will be because eventually one language is gonna inevitably be spoken by almost everyone and we're getting there already. That doesn't mean France or Germany or the US, or any regions inside them, will magically lose everything that makes them unique. It's not the same thing at that scale. [editline]a[/editline] What have you lost by being on an English speaking forum. Does this lessen your sense of identity or connection with your past? Why? At the end of the day I'd rather look forward and see what we can become rather than have my feet firmly planted in the past.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52101331]So at no point in that did aspects of a culture die? [editline]13th April 2017[/editline] You're saying that to create your culture today, nothing was lost, forgotten, or given up to history?[/QUOTE] Yes, the pagan Norse religion stuff died, as have dozens of traditions already. Traditions that might not even have been written down on paper. We can't change the past and the climate was harsher back then. Things don't often get a second chance. Today, we have the means of preservation and can steer the direction of culture. Towards more change or less change.

[QUOTE=RB33;52101387]Yes, the pagan Norse religion stuff died, as have dozens of traditions already. Traditions that might not even have been written down on paper. We can't change the past and the climate was harsher back then. Things don't often get a second chance. Today, we have the means of preservation and can steer the direction of culture. Towards more change or less change.[/QUOTE] So you're saying "Todays cultures are enough, we should stagnate" Okay I don't agree, never will agree, fundamentally can't agree with that as a sentiment. But enjoy clinging onto the old as times change. 200 years ago, your argument would be word for word the same in it's essence, and things still would have changed. Every culture believes their culture is the be all, end all of culture. It just doesn't work like that at any level though.

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;52101352]That's a small dialect from over a hundred years ago, and I'll bet most examples you find will be because eventually one language is gonna inevitably be spoken by almost everyone and we're getting there already. That doesn't mean France or Germany or the US, or any regions inside them, will magically lose everything that makes them unique. It's not the same thing at that scale.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]In 1860, before schooling was made compulsory, native Occitan speakers represented more than 39%[2] of the whole French population, as opposed to 52% of francophones proper; their share of the population declined to 26–36% in the 1920s,[3] and then dropped to less than 7% by 1993.[4][/QUOTE] If that's what you were referring to as a small dialect. Lose everything, you say. Why do something that will result in a loss at all, if preventable? We're doing fine right now, why sacrifice our culture? [QUOTE][editline]a[/editline] What have you lost by being on an English speaking forum. Does this lessen your sense of identity or connection with your past? Why? At the end of the day I'd rather look forward and see what we can become rather than have my feet firmly planted in the past.[/QUOTE] No, because I still have my culture and still use it. If I only could speak English, my life would be more empty and I couldn't express myself in another language and culture. Not to mention the the vast library of information available in the language's own unique way of expressing itself. I respect what you believe, I just hope those that want to keep their history are as well and not pressured because of some ideals.

Language =/ culture tbh and this is the crux of your assertions and what everyone else disagrees with.

[QUOTE=RB33;52101446]If that's what you were referring as a small dialect. Lose everything, you say. Why do something that will result in a loss at all, if preventable? We're doing fine right now, why sacrifice our culture? No, because I still have my culture and still use it. If I only could speak English, my life would be more empty and I couldn't express myself in another language and culture. I respect what you believe, I just hope those that want to keep their history are as well and not pressured because of some ideals.[/QUOTE] Honestly you seem to want something that is just unrealistic and unsupported by history. You're saying you don't want change to occur in your culture. It's already occurring. You cannot stop change. It's ever present and ever occurring. Have you ever thought about what it would mean, fundamentally, for your culture to just full stop "evolving" today?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52101405]So you're saying "Todays cultures are enough, we should stagnate" Okay I don't agree, never will agree, fundamentally can't agree with that as a sentiment. But enjoy clinging onto the old as times change. 200 years ago, your argument would be word for word the same in it's essence, and things still would have changed. Every culture believes their culture is the be all, end all of culture. It just doesn't work like that at any level though.[/QUOTE] We stagnate because we don't join together into one culture, what then split into new cultures again? What's the point? [QUOTE=DOG-GY;52101460]Language =/ culture tbh and this is the crux of your assertions and what everyone else disagrees with.[/QUOTE] Languages are culture too, do you disagree with that? [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52101461]Honestly you seem to want something that is just unrealistic and unsupported by history. You're saying you don't want change to occur in your culture. It's already occurring. You cannot stop change. It's ever present and ever occurring. Have you ever thought about what it would mean, fundamentally, for your culture to just full stop "evolving" today?[/QUOTE] Is it a good thing for it to evolve? If it evolves beyond recognition, so that you can't even read a text written a 100 or 200 years ago, because the language changed too much. Isn't that a problem? If it joins together with other cultures it will even stop evolving on its own. It will no longer get a choice over its own development. Is that something desirable or problematic? It's something valuable for a culture to be able decide it's own future, not just changing for the sake of change.

A near perfect universal translator is inevitable, you know. No, languages aren't culture.

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;52101574]A near perfect universal translator is inevitable, you know. No, languages aren't culture.[/QUOTE] If you trust Wikipedia, there's this: [QUOTE]Languages, understood as the particular set of speech norms of a particular community, are also a part of the larger culture of the community that speaks them.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=RB33;52101472]We stagnate because we don't join together into one culture, what then split into new cultures again? What's the point? Languages are culture too, do you disagree with that? [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] Is it a good thing for it to evolve? If it evolves beyond recognition, so that you can't even read a text written a 100 or 200 years ago, because the language changed too much. Isn't that a problem? If it joins together with other cultures it will even stop evolving on its own. It will no longer get a choice over its own development. Is that something desirable or problematic? It's something valuable for a culture to be able decide it's own future, not just changing for the sake of change.[/QUOTE] You seem to be thinking that culture has an end point. It doesn't. I honestly don't know what to even say to you because you're making mountains out of ant steps. Change occurs. Have fun trying to halt it. No one else in history ever has, you'll be the first though.

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;52101460]Language =/ culture tbh and this is the crux of your assertions and what everyone else disagrees with.[/QUOTE] I only started to interact with a lot of immigrants and other foreigners a lot recently and although I didn't think of it before I've realized just how much language plays into culture. Even if they know the language inside out, it's impossible to hold a normal conversation with most immigrants. They just won't understand the different meanings, regional dialects and other weird verbal shit that you just take for granted that everyone around you know. If anything I think language is one of the biggest things that actually helps shape culture.

[QUOTE=RB33;52101604]If you trust Wikipedia, there's this:[/QUOTE] Part. A part. Please read the full sentence and don't act like "Part" isn't an important part of that sentence. Languages are part of a culture, they don't define them. How do you plan on preventing the further evolution of cultures around you? How do you plan on literally stamping out the flares in differences? If the culture you have is as good as it gets, and it shouldn't change(for some nebulous reason you still can't actually define) what are you going to do when a fellow member of your culture wants to change something? Will you be the one to define that person from your culture, as an outsider to your culture? How will you reconcile any of this in your head? [editline]13th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Joffy;52101972]I only started to interact with a lot of immigrants and other foreigners a lot recently and although I didn't think of it before I've realized just how much language plays into culture. Even if they know the language inside out, it's impossible to hold a normal conversation with most immigrants. They just won't understand the different meanings, regional dialects and other weird verbal shit that you just take for granted that everyone around you know. If anything I think language is one of the biggest things that actually helps shape culture.[/QUOTE] I can't disagree with this enough. I live in immigrant central. I live in an area where the majority is chinese/korean/central asian, and the next largest population group are the people who grew up here, and the next largest demographic is immigrants from eastern europe. We're literally an immigrant culture. I personally have interacted with immigrants who understand the nuances of the language, they get regional differences in the words. It's not like it's impossible to explain that to people. It's difficult, but immigrants aren't a subset of people that lack the skills to socialize properly as a generalization. My experiences living in a culture of immigration is drastically different than the swedes who seem to comment on this topic a bunch. It's literally what i've grown up with.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52101961]You seem to be thinking that culture has an end point. It doesn't. I honestly don't know what to even say to you because you're making mountains out of ant steps. Change occurs. Have fun trying to halt it. No one else in history ever has, you'll be the first though.[/QUOTE] Even if I want stop certain changes, I won't be able to. What i'm able to do is to speak against those that want to accelerate change. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52101982]Part. A part. Please read the full sentence and don't act like "Part" isn't an important part of that sentence. Languages are part of a culture, they don't define them. How do you plan on preventing the further evolution of cultures around you? How do you plan on literally stamping out the flares in differences? If the culture you have is as good as it gets, and it shouldn't change(for some nebulous reason you still can't actually define) what are you going to do when a fellow member of your culture wants to change something? Will you be the one to define that person from your culture, as an outsider to your culture? How will you reconcile any of this in your head?[/QUOTE] Language strengthens culture and culture strengthen language, they go together. I'm not a cultural fascist, i won't go after people who disagree with me. I just want slow and reasonable change, not radical change or getting rid of history and traditions, just because it's old. If we try to keep so much else alive or intact (near-extinct animals, paintings and music by great artists), why should we let traditions die? Is it some belief that traditions are just old stuff, filled with prejudice or values of old, not fit for modern life? That we need to reinvent ourselves for the modern age?

[QUOTE=RB33;52102087]Even if I want stop certain changes, I won't be able to. What i'm able to do is to speak against those that want to accelerate change. Language strengthens culture and culture strengthen language, they go together. I'm not a cultural fascist, i won't go after people who disagree with me. I just want slow and reasonable change, not radical change or getting rid of history and traditions, just because it's old. If we try to keep so much else alive or intact (near-extinct animals, paintings and music by great artists), why should we let traditions die? Is it some belief that traditions are just old stuff, filled with prejudice or values of old, not fit for modern life? That we need to reinvent ourselves for the modern age?[/QUOTE] No but why cling to it if you can't actually point out what it's value is? I've been raised in a very multi cultural part of the world, there is no "Culture" here. Are we suffering? No. Are we lacking? No. Are we lesser than you? No. Are we less unique and defined because our traditions are pretty much non existent? I would say no. I live in a melting pot. There's an abundance of different cultures, and a lack of any unifying culture. And you know what? It's fucking awesome here.

[QUOTE=RB33;52101604]If you trust Wikipedia, there's this:[/QUOTE] thats not the same

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52102144]No but why cling to it if you can't actually point out what it's value is? I've been raised in a very multi cultural part of the world, there is no "Culture" here. Are we suffering? No. Are we lacking? No. Are we lesser than you? No. Are we less unique and defined because our traditions are pretty much non existent? I would say no. I live in a melting pot. There's an abundance of different cultures, and a lack of any unifying culture. And you know what? It's fucking awesome here.[/QUOTE] So you find value in lots of cultures, some only have one and find value in that. Are they wrong for just wanting to keep that one culture the same? Value is subjective, I think my language is heading into too much change, too quickly. I find comfort in having people who share my traditions and culture, if we lump that into a larger, more unpersonal mess. We might lose that personal connection. I think many, most of them not active on the internet and connected globally fear a change in culture. They don't know what to expect in the future, change is often something unknown and people would rather know what to expect.

Yeah life isn't easy idk what you want me to say They're not wrong to value one culture but it's just counter productive to not know why your defending what your defending other than "tradition says so"

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52102326]Yeah life isn't easy idk what you want me to say They're not wrong to value one culture but it's just counter productive to not know why your defending what your defending other than "tradition says so"[/QUOTE] I and others find value in it as I said. They might find change counter productive, because "nothing stays the same, so it should change". Even when that change might not be good.

[QUOTE=RB33;52102392]I and others find value in it as I said. They might find change counter productive, because "nothing stays the same, so it should change".[/QUOTE] Okay so I just don't get it though Should culture have stopped evolving a thousand years ago? By all inclinations, you would [B]have[/B] to say yes because culture changing is bad [editline]13th April 2017[/editline] Like language and culture changes daily how do you stop that what are you even talking about doing

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52102397]Okay so I just don't get it though Should culture have stopped evolving a thousand years ago? By all inclinations, you would [B]have[/B] to say yes because culture changing is bad [editline]13th April 2017[/editline] Like language and culture changes daily how do you stop that what are you even talking about doing[/QUOTE] No, not all change is bad. Some change is though and we shouldn't just accept it for the sake of it. How do you get stuff done, you give incentives and set up guidelines for people to follow.

[QUOTE=RB33;52102482]No, not all change is bad. Some change is though and we shouldn't just accept it for the sake of it. How do you get stuff done, you give incentives and set up guidelines for people to follow.[/QUOTE] So who gives those incentives and guidelines? If you were at the helm of that, then it seems that "Change is bad" is the rule of the day. You understand the subjectivity of the subject, so that's something at least, but how do you do what you're asking without basically saying "This is the right opinion" which, I'm guessing is more your opinion, than mine? How do you determine whether change is good or bad? Could you, perhaps I know this is a big stretch, but could you be wrong about whether a change was good or bad? Change is daily. How do you deal with this when you have the stated goal that you have? How do you prevent literally daily change? Enough daily changes changes your culture as a whole, so seriously, how do you even start defining things that are by definition, fuzzy, with as solidly defined lines as you seem to have implied?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52102528]So who gives those incentives and guidelines? If you were at the helm of that, then it seems that "Change is bad" is the rule of the day. You understand the subjectivity of the subject, so that's something at least, but how do you do what you're asking without basically saying "This is the right opinion" which, I'm guessing is more your opinion, than mine? How do you determine whether change is good or bad? Could you, perhaps I know this is a big stretch, but could you be wrong about whether a change was good or bad? Change is daily. How do you deal with this when you have the stated goal that you have? How do you prevent literally daily change? Enough daily changes changes your culture as a whole, so seriously, how do you even start defining things that are by definition, fuzzy, with as solidly defined lines as you seem to have implied?[/QUOTE] I'm not sure how this is relevant unless you're positing some sort of cultural nihilism where we can never evaluate any truth regarding cultural differences. You look at changes and differences, evaluate them, and decide whether it's better or worse than what you had before.

[QUOTE=sgman91;52102626]I'm not sure how this is relevant unless you're positing some sort of cultural nihilism where we can never evaluate any truth regarding cultural differences. You look at changes and differences, evaluate them, and decide whether it's better or worse than what you had before.[/QUOTE] Oh so you'd do that objectively where as I wouldn't? Is that the implication I ask because you cannot remove individual biases from this, you're not going to be able to. Somethings may be valuable at some scale you can define via utility or something else but you're not getting away from biases when talking about cultures.

[QUOTE=RB33;52102087]I'm not a cultural fascist, i won't go after people who disagree with me. I just want slow and reasonable change, not radical change or getting rid of history and traditions, just because it's old. If we try to keep so much else alive or intact (near-extinct animals, paintings and music by great artists), why should we let traditions die? Is it some belief that traditions are just old stuff, filled with prejudice or values of old, not fit for modern life? That we need to reinvent ourselves for the modern age?[/QUOTE] that's essentially it. people are pushing for traditions and principles that took centuries to generate to be dismantled in favour of therapeutic feel-good reasons

The European Union isn't a staging ground to create a united earth; the hint's in the name. If you're for the EU you're a nationalist, you're just not French, British or German one. It wants it's own army, it's only pro-European ideology, cooperation between Europe and the EU alone. Marxists of all people are against it for this reason. We can hardly call the EU democratic either with it's European Commission, that laughable 'parliament' has less powers than Scotland; it's merely a symbol. I'd even go on to say it's gone from undemocratic to anti what with they did to Greece and their elections after squeezing them into submission, similar to Ireland on the lisbon treaty. You have groups like Troika, ECB, Eurogroup --[URL="https://www.theguardian.com/business/blog/live/2015/jul/04/greek-debt-crisis-countdown-to-polling-day-live"] that fucked with Greece until the nation voted the 'right' way[/URL]. Who elected Mario Monti or Lucas Papademos? The European Union's stance on [URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35927542"]nationalisation & government intervention of industry[/URL] is also worrying, TTIP doesn't like it much. Not like being in the EU has been has been kind to UK industries in general I suppose. Trade is another thing (going back to the [URL="http://i.imgur.com/5whxzV2.jpg"]united earth[/URL] thing here) which the EU looks at with an old fashioned [URL="https://capx.co/how-the-eu-starves-africa-into-submission/"]colonial outlook on the world[/URL]. Countries that want access to the EU without tariffs have to [URL="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/apr/02/eu-fishing-west-africa-mauritania"]open up theirs[/URL], [URL="https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/nov/19/comment.uganda"]this bullying[/URL] became apparent in Keyna when they refused to sign this agreement and the EU - effectively putting a [URL="https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/jan/16/kenya-flower-trade-eu-pressure"]gun to it's head[/URL] and demanding this nation competes with the entire EU (AKA -- obliterating their markets); war by other means. When you tell me the EU is good for trade and jobs I simply ask whose? Those in the union? This isn't a united world outlook. I wish the Left in the UK would stop trying to defend this corporate, faceless swamp creature. Jeremy Corbyn voted to leave in 1975, Labour was against joining the entire bloody thing - the majority of the Left saw the EU as a bad thing until the Thatcher's Conservative government gained power. I suppose the [URL="http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sam-glover/brexit-eu-referendum_b_9532552.html"]Huffington Post[/URL] explains it better than I can. The EU is run by right leaning nations such as France and Germany and as long as the right keep hold of these nations then the European Union will not see reform. But w/e I suppose - you get to travel to Spain cheaply, you can go to a university in Germany somewhat easier than America. Sometimes the EU court defends your right to get a refund on your Nintendo Switch and one time they said no Steam refunds was very mean, hooray?

[QUOTE=Vasili;52103045]We can hardly call the EU democratic either with it's European Commission[/QUOTE] What are you talking about? Commissioners are selected by the European Council -which consists of every member's state democratically elected leader- and the European Parliament. How is that undemocratic?

[QUOTE=_Axel;52103213]What are you talking about? Commissioners are selected by the European Council -which consists of every member's state democratically elected leader- and the European Parliament. How is that undemocratic?[/QUOTE] I am baffled everytime people say that the EU and the European Commission aren't democratic - they're undoubtedly not perfect, but claiming they're not democratic makes no sense. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=RB33;52102482]No, not all change is bad. Some change is though and we shouldn't just accept it for the sake of it. How do you get stuff done, you give incentives and set up guidelines for people to follow.[/QUOTE] Losing some culture in favour of economic growth, stability and peace is definitely not bad though.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52103330] Losing some culture in favour of economic growth, stability and peace is definitely not bad though.[/QUOTE] I think the economic growth idea of the EU is still hanging in the balance of being a benefit, we've had austerity for 10 years and nothing much has changed since back then except that our roads are a lot shittier with council's being tight on money and turning off street lights along with budget problems with the NHS meanwhilst that economic benefit lines the pockets of business rather than the average person seeing that we're getting benefit cuts and our wages have stagnated with all the pay freezes and inflation of goods. Still, what could be happening is that we're seeing economic growth in parts of the EU but it's not being shown to be a benefit to some of us within the EU due to the above problems. Maybe there IS a place in the EU over the 10 years that saw some improvements economically, but here it certainly feels like we just dropped the ball. Don't get me wrong, I still like living here, it's not a low standard of living sure, just that it could have been better economic growth.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52103330]Losing some culture in favour of economic growth, stability and peace is definitely not bad though.[/QUOTE] Is that often even a choice though, when can you say "losing this piece of culture in particular will improve quality of life"?