Kurzgesagt: Is the European Union Worth It Or Should We End It? - General

[QUOTE=_Axel;52103213]What are you talking about? Commissioners are selected by the European Council -which consists of every member's state democratically elected leader- and the European Parliament. How is that undemocratic?[/QUOTE] It might be people thinking that democracy means voting for literally everyone

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52103330]Losing some culture in favour of economic growth, stability and peace is definitely not bad though.[/QUOTE] Let's say a group of people have just invaded your country and have raided the art museums, churches and other places of culture and intents to either destroy them or sell them off into private hands or keep them for their own collections. You win the war but at considerable lost most of those pieces never make it back into the museums and those which do are damage from fighting, incorrect storage and transports. Would you say this is a good thing or bad thing to have happen to your country?

[QUOTE=RB33;52103550]Is that often even a choice though, when can you say "losing this piece of culture in particular will improve quality of life"?[/QUOTE] I'd say loosing stuff like the hard-line conservatism of the 1950's has definitely improved the lives of many people. I'd also imagine that the cultures that oppress people could go and it would improve peoples lives

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52102528]So who gives those incentives and guidelines? If you were at the helm of that, then it seems that "Change is bad" is the rule of the day. You understand the subjectivity of the subject, so that's something at least, but how do you do what you're asking without basically saying "This is the right opinion" which, I'm guessing is more your opinion, than mine? How do you determine whether change is good or bad? Could you, perhaps I know this is a big stretch, but could you be wrong about whether a change was good or bad? Change is daily. How do you deal with this when you have the stated goal that you have? How do you prevent literally daily change? Enough daily changes changes your culture as a whole, so seriously, how do you even start defining things that are by definition, fuzzy, with as solidly defined lines as you seem to have implied?[/QUOTE] Well, the state care for its people and its culture. That's why they fund culture, making movies, art, keeping traditions possible. So the state would incentivize it and provide assistiance for struggling culture. People who like to put aside culture for other ideals, economic growth and integration exist. Do they give me an option for something else or do they as you seem to think of me push through action? You're not perfect in deciding in what is good or bad, but throwing it away as a thing of the past is worse. You overestimate daily changes, trends are more important and should be controlled if they are more destructive than helpful to existing culture. Some countries already do this with their languages to a high degree. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=gokiyono;52103567]I'd say loosing stuff like the hard-line conservatism of the 1950's has definitely improved the lives of many people. I'd also imagine that the cultures that oppress people could go and it would improve peoples lives[/QUOTE] In the past, yes. Racism, discrimination and barbaric behaviours have existed. For modern western country today, is there still something that can be removed to achieve this?

[QUOTE=RB33;52103550]Is that often even a choice though, when can you say "losing this piece of culture in particular will improve quality of life"?[/QUOTE] No, it's just a thing that happens. The aim isn't to destroy culture, but nor is it to protect it.

I really don't think the EU destroys cultures. Germany still has loads of individual dialects and regional quirks, the Gaelic language in Scotland is actually growing and events that celebrate Scottish culture are at a all time high. I do not see why people can't have both a regional and broader scope 'european' identity.

[QUOTE=Chopstick;52103479]I think the economic growth idea of the EU is still hanging in the balance of being a benefit, we've had austerity for 10 years and nothing much has changed since back then except that our roads are a lot shittier with council's being tight on money and turning off street lights along with budget problems with the NHS meanwhilst that economic benefit lines the pockets of business rather than the average person seeing that we're getting benefit cuts and our wages have stagnated with all the pay freezes and inflation of goods. Still, what could be happening is that we're seeing economic growth in parts of the EU but it's not being shown to be a benefit to some of us within the EU due to the above problems. Maybe there IS a place in the EU over the 10 years that saw some improvements economically, but here it certainly feels like we just dropped the ball. Don't get me wrong, I still like living here, it's not a low standard of living sure, just that it could have been better economic growth.[/QUOTE] The UK hasn't been a member for 10 years though. Also, do you realize most of the things that you describe are not faults of the EU but rather actions from your local and national government? The UK isn't part of the Eurozone, in fact, most of the inflationary effects that the UK is experiencing right now are a direct consequence of [I]Brexit[/I].

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52103584]No, it's just a thing that happens. The aim isn't to destroy culture, but nor is it to protect it.[/QUOTE] So why did you say "in favour of economic growth, stability and peace", you can't actually say that we get those in return?

[QUOTE=RB33;52103571]In the past, yes. Racism, discrimination and barbaric behaviours have existed. For modern western country today, is there still something that can be removed to achieve this?[/QUOTE] Stricter enforcement on hate crime, more effort to crackdown on parties like Sverigedemokraterna, higher standards regarding scientific basis for politics. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=RB33;52103612]So why did you say "in favour of economic growth, stability and peace", you can't actually say that we get those in return?[/QUOTE] No, I'm arguing that the EU definitely has improved those things - while there may have been some loss of culture as a result, which is as far as I understand, your point?

[QUOTE=Big Bang;52103591]The UK hasn't been a member for 10 years though. Also, do you realize most of the things that you describe are not faults of the EU but rather actions from your local and national government? The UK isn't part of the Eurozone, in fact, most of the inflationary effects that the UK is experiencing right now are a direct consequence of [I]Brexit[/I].[/QUOTE] The Euro-crisis affects us all, even those without the currency. It's interconnected.

[QUOTE=Mr Kotov;52103590]I really don't think the EU destroys cultures. Germany still has loads of individual dialects and regional quirks, the Gaelic language in Scotland is actually growing and events that celebrate Scottish culture are at a all time high. I do not see why people can't have both a regional and broader scope 'european' identity.[/QUOTE] people seem to forget that the EU actually funds a ton of cultural stuff

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52103613]Stricter enforcement on hate crime, more effort to crackdown on parties like Sverigedemokraterna, higher standards regarding scientific basis for politics.[/QUOTE] You want to crackdown on democratic parties to improve people's life? The party hasn't even been in power and contributed to bad policies yet. [QUOTE]No, I'm arguing that the EU definitely has improved those things - while there may have been some loss of culture as a result, which is as far as I understand, your point?[/QUOTE] I think the EU can exist without losing high amounts of culture, like it's currently. It's union with 27 or so official languages, it hasn't forced us to speak German/French yet and is unlikely to due to being a union and not something more centralized. We have people in this thread that advocate erasing cultural identities, that scares me more than the EU itself currently.

[QUOTE=RB33;52103621]The Euro-crisis affects us all, even those without the currency. It's interconnected.[/QUOTE] It affects the UK significantly less than everybody, in part because of how the amounts of refugees that the UK has actually accepted are tiny, and because they have control over the monetary policy. I'm not making shit up, just look at the numbers. [QUOTE=RB33;52103642] I think the EU can exist without losing high amounts of culture, like it's currently. It's union with 27 or so official languages, it hasn't forced us to speak German/French yet and is unlikely to due to being a union and not something more centralized. We have people in this thread that advocate erasing cultural identities, that scares me more than the EU itself currently.[/QUOTE] Nobody fucking said that, you're being dramatic. I said that your culture will die, I didn't advocate for its death, what I am saying is that it will transform into something else whether you like it or not. You're using "cultural identity" as an euphemism.

[QUOTE=RB33;52103642]You want to crackdown on democratic parties to improve people's life? The party hasn't even been in power and contributed to bad policies yet. I think the EU can exist without losing high amounts of culture, like it's currently. It's union with 27 or so official languages, it hasn't forced us to speak German/French yet and is unlikely to due to being a union and not something more centralized. We have people in this thread that advocate erasing cultural identities, that scares me more than the EU itself currently.[/QUOTE] I think that a democratic party shouldn't be a threat to democracy itself, but I'm only bringing it up as a suggestion because I don't think that party should exist but I also think one should be very weary of taking on political parties in a democracy, so take that part with a bit of salt. And yeah, I agree with your second paragraph to a degree but I don't think more centralization in the EU is bad. Maybe I haven't payed attention well enough but I haven't really seen anyone advocate erasing cultural identities - only people saying they don't care about preserving said cultural identities.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;52103650]It affects the UK significantly less than everybody, in part because of how the amounts of refugees that the UK has actually accepted are tiny, and because they have control over the monetary policy. I'm not making shit up, just look at the numbers. Nobody fucking said that, you're being dramatic. I said that your culture will die, I didn't advocate for its death, what I am saying is that it will transform into something else whether you like it or not. You're using "cultural identity" as an euphemism.[/QUOTE] I'm not and I asked you to clarify if you feel i'm not being honest. I once again quote Marbalo, who made me comment in this thread to start with: [QUOTE=Marbalo;52098127]Cultural identity becoming a potential victim is a totally acceptable collateral victim of this process, because it serves very little purpose beyond cultivating aggressive nationalism, distrust of arbitrarily condemned "foreigners", and sews the seeds of isolationism in both the public and the government. All of these things are factually bad for the economy and the quality of life of citizens. It would basically be an empire that isn't hellbent on war, monarchies, or subjugation - but rather a superstate built upon the foundations of economic and military cooperation, and would get us much closer to the concept of a unified Earth. If this goal involves mass riots and unrest from people who are offended at the concept of letting go of their "cultural identities" (whatever that means, the definition is so vague, broad and subjective you cant even pinpoint what it actually is), then so be it. In a very short period of time, people will suddenly start living more comfortably than ever before in history, and money is the greatest persuader. Who cares about flags when your children could have the best education and the greatest financial stability they could ever hope for?[/QUOTE] If we get rid of cultural identites, we will no longer have French food, German words or Swedish traditions. Do we all become some vague kind of European then?

[QUOTE=RB33;52103669]I'm not and I asked you to clarify if you feel i'm not being honest. I once again quote Marbalo, who made me comment in this thread to start with: If we get rid of cultural identites, we will no longer have French food, German words or Swedish traditions. Do we all become some vague kind of European then?[/QUOTE] Why the fuck would French cuisine disappear lol You'll still have your precious culture, no one is going to take that away from you. It will just look way, way different from what it does now.

Who exactly here is looking to destroy culture?

[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52103695]Why the fuck would French cuisine disappear lol You'll still have your precious culture, no one is going to take that away from you. It will just look way, way different from what it does now.[/QUOTE] It would be known as European cuisine, because French no longer exist as an identity. At some point, it will be different enough to be counted as something else and it won't be the same thing anymore. I'm not speaking Old Norse, am I and Italians are not speaking latin anymore, Americans stopped being British and so on. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=MrJazzy;52103704]Who exactly here is looking to destroy culture?[/QUOTE] Some are content with sacrificing it for economic gains and a common European identity, culture will be destroyed as a result of that. If we move close together, there likely won't be space for smaller, local traditions. Getting rid of cultural identities will be an even more severe blow towards local culture and in favour of larger cultures.

[QUOTE=RB33;52103706]Some are content with sacrificing it for economic gains and a common European identity, culture will be destroyed as a result of that. If we move close together, there likely won't be space for smaller, local traditions. Getting rid of cultural identities will be an even more severe blow towards local culture and in favour of larger cultures.[/QUOTE] So the pro is co-operation and a better economy and the con is that people forget traditions?

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52103720]So the pro is co-operation and a better economy and the con is that people forget traditions?[/QUOTE] Yes, it often happens when you combine smaller groups of people into a larger group. What characteristics the smaller group have will gradually dissappear in favor of the majority's values.

[QUOTE=RB33;52103706]It would be known as European cuisine, because French no longer exist as an identity. At some point, it will be different enough to be counted as something else and it won't be the same thing anymore. I'm not speaking Old Norse, am I and Italians are not speaking latin anymore, Americans stopped being British and so on.[/QUOTE] Are any of these things really that bad? Culture evolving is a bad thing? [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=RB33;52103727]Yes, it often happens when you combine smaller groups of people into a larger group. What characteristics the smaller group have will gradually dissappear in favor of the majority's values.[/QUOTE] And so even if it leads to people living better lives than they otherwise would have, we should fight change and hold on to these traditions?

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52103729]Are any of these things really that bad? Culture evolving is a bad thing?[/QUOTE] Is it really good to combine identities? Is it bad to be be unique? [QUOTE]And so even if it leads to people living better lives than they otherwise would have, we should fight change and hold on to these traditions?[/QUOTE] Why can't traditions and culture be something, we also want to fight for? It can go together with progress. You don't have to sacrifice culture to live a good or better life. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Marbalo;52103735]In the US, where all states were combined into one single federal government, there are still different cultures. Every state has their own traditions, their own foods, their own accents and dialects, and their own history. Nothing was forgotten or left behind by unification. Again, you are going in circles arguing over the same shit even when people already explained to you why you're wrong. Please take the time to actually read and understand what is being said to you instead of just knee-jerking everytime you see the words "cultural identity".[/QUOTE] No, you're wrong. If the cost of strengthening Europe is getting rid of identities, you're doing something wrong and hurting our history and culture. Having the EU is about uniting despite differences, not getting rid of who we are. US states has always had very similar cultures, shared the same language and all have traditions from the same origin. It's not comparable to Europe.

[QUOTE=RB33;52103743]Is it really good to combine identities? Is it bad to be be unique? Why can't traditions and culture be something, we also want to fight for? It can go together with progress. You don't have to sacrifice culture to live a good or better life.[/QUOTE] Sure, but the EU isn't a threat to traditions and cultures.

I feel as though one issue in this whole conversation is the vague usage of "culture" and "identity" used here. Culture doesn't always equal identity. A good example of this are Jewish people, who may have identified themselves as people of a specific state at times, but kept their culture alive through practice. The same would happen in a federal Europe; traditions don't just disappear the moment people switch their identity, otherwise diasporas wouldn't be a thing. A counter-example to the previously mentioned Occitan Vergonha are the Sorbs, and to a lesser extent, the Slovenes and Slovaks - despite never having their own proper country (and still don't for the Sorbs), their culture persevered even as the Germans, Austrians and Hungarians tried to get rid of it. Now the latter two have their own countries, whilst the Sorbs have cultural rights in the German regions they live in. If we did have a federal Europe, I would imagine it would adopt a system more akin to Germany, where minority languages are recognized and protected, rather than the one in France, where only French is mandated and promoted to the detriment of all its minority languages.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52103752]Sure, but the EU isn't a threat to traditions and cultures.[/QUOTE] It is, if it's used as a tool to erase identities. I hope it will never be used as such and that the member nations put an end to it in that case, as is reasonable.

[QUOTE=RB33;52103760]It is, if it's used as a tool to erase identities. I hope it will never be used as such and that the member nations put an end to it in that case, as is reasonable.[/QUOTE] Fair enough.

[QUOTE=Marbalo;52103812]What? Yes it is. German culture is closely intertwined with French culture, Polish culture is closely intertwined with Baltic culture, etc etc. Every culture borrows from its neighbor one, or more, traits because culture is fluid. That how culture works. In many ways US culture is very similar to European culture because that's what happens when people share a border for several hundred years or more. Let me once more (for the 4th time this thread) explain to you why you're not grasping what is being said; Europe will become more united and culturally mixed. [I]If[/I] - the situation demands it, and some cultures end up being retroactively made obsolete or changed into something else entirely over the course of decades or centuries, [I]then so be it.[/I] It's not the intended end-goal, it's a possible side-effect, and one that is [I]totally acceptable[/I] to any sane individual who doesn't deal with political-cultural theories. Because - it's acceptable when the rewards are better living conditions across every single measure of well-being. People will develop new and better cultures based not on hardship or outdated traditions, but rather on cooperation, and the celebration of unity. I'm not the one that's trying to prove you wrong here, even. Just look at history. Look at today. Cultures come and go because that's the nature of cultures. Therefore I ask why you're arguing about it being wrong to replace cultures with other cultures (for almost 2 days straight) when the process is [I]happening right now[/I], just like it has been happening since the dawn of man?[/QUOTE] They are not that intertwined. The US is not comparable, you're comparing a single country which have existed for 300 years with an entire continent with written down history since Rome and the ancient Greeks. One of these is far more complicated and diverse than the other and it's not the US. You're still very optimistic in your views regarding the EU. So if the Soviet Union succeed in their communist experiment at the cost making everyone ethnic Russian over time, it would have been worth it? And "things will inevitably change so why bother trying to counteract it" isn't a good argument. Becaue I want MY culture, i don't want some mixed European blob, i wouldn't want the Soviet Union trying to turn my people into Russians. Is that so hard to understand, i simply like and am content with what i have.

[QUOTE=RB33;52103833]They are not that intertwined.[/QUOTE] The level of intertwinedness may not be as apparent to you, mainly because of Europe's deep history. We have a complex cultural continuum depended on many factors, from the history of the region and the political stature and control in the area, to the availability of transport, trade, spread of information and technology, as well as the dialect continuum. The famous Viennoiseries made popular by the French have their origins in Vienna as indicative of the name, or the previously mentioned Swedish custom of fika are both examples of this cross/inter-cultural connection Europe has, and once you narrow it down to more specific regions, such as the Balkans or Central Europe, these connections become even greater. In many ways, culture doesn't die in the way you may think it would (or at least how I interpret your views), same with languages. Both evolve and adapt to their surroundings. The only way you could say a culture died is by saying that its current incarnation isn't that culture. Old Norse culture 'died' by evolving into the modern Scandinavian cultures. Roman culture 'died' by evolving into the modern Romance cultures. And whilst one would understandably want to keep what they view as their culture, the proper version of it, that simply isn't possibly as shown by history. They will organically evolve into something new, something different from before. It'll keep some traditions, but discard others as deemed necessary by the times. Ancient Greek pederasty, Norse-style ship burials, to name just a few examples, naturally fell off culturally. Examples of states forcing their own culture against the will of their minorities, such as the Russianization that existed during the Soviet Union, the unfortunate Serbianization that existed in the latter years of Yugoslavia, especially after Tito's death, and the Mandarinization in China, are common enough that the idea of cultural evolution may seem inherently dangerous for you, since it in some ways alters it. However, I have no doubt in my mind that a federal Europe would not be stupid enough to try this, and keep a European identity along with all the cultures that would exist in such a united state. Otherwise, we'd just have a repeat of what happened with so many other multicultural states that tried the same thing, from the previously mentioned Soviet Union, the Ottoman Empire in its later years, to Austria-Hungary, and so forth.

I read your post, but the one question that I think remains for me in this thread is why remove cultural identities though? We're not warring against each other now, we have grown more friendly to one another in Europe and now some people want to get rid of our identities. Isn't the progress we have already good enough? Removing them might marginally improve understanding and communication, but so much will be lost though. Once, we get rid of it, it can be hard get back.

[QUOTE=RB33;52103960]I read your post, but the one question that I think remains for me in this thread is why remove cultural identities though? We're not warring against each other now, we have grown more friendly to one another in Europe and now some people want to get rid of our identities. Isn't the progress we have already good enough? Removing them might marginally improve understanding and communication, but so much will be lost though. Once, we get rid of it, it can be hard get back.[/QUOTE] I don't think anyone is arguing for getting rid of our identities, just that europe needs to be more unified and that EU needs to be stronger aswell as more transparent.