Kurzgesagt: Is the European Union Worth It Or Should We End It? - General

[QUOTE=Marbalo;52103981]Nobody is talking about explicitly removing cultural identities.[/QUOTE] You said it were a "totally acceptable collateral victim", why? Taking into account what I said above. [QUOTE=MrJazzy;52103983]I don't think anyone is arguing for getting rid of our identities, just that europe needs to be more unified and that EU needs to be stronger aswell as more transparent.[/QUOTE] At the cost of losing culture, even? By decreasing the significance of identities, the culture attached to them start to lose their value. With no proper identity having that culture as a core, people will move away from it and adopt different culture. If no one is left to safeguard the culture, it will be forgotten and lost for future generations. It might not even make it into a museum.

[QUOTE=RB33;52103960]I read your post, but the one question that I think remains for me in this thread is why remove cultural identities though? We're not warring against each other now, we have grown more friendly to one another in Europe and now some people want to get rid of our identities. Isn't the progress we have already good enough? Removing them might marginally improve understanding and communication, but so much will be lost though. Once, we get rid of it, it can be hard get back.[/QUOTE] I feel as though the issue of cultural identities, as discussed in this argument/discussion/dialogue/whatever, is a bit of a flawed one, as it assumes that a federal government uniting many nations together into one will cause the nation's cultural identity to disappear. Whilst you may argue that the US is not comparable, I would argue that it is. Whilst it may have some unitary cultural ideas, such as the usage of English as the wider lingua franca, as well as some general things that they all agree with, the US in of itself is very much a mini-Europe in terms of the complexity of its own cultural continuum, from religious minorities such as the Amish and the Mormons, to ethnic minorities such as its Afro-American and Latino-American populations, all of which have their own culture that had persevered even at times when the wider popular culture may have been against them. I believe the argument those who you may say want to "remove" it is that they want its importance to be lessened, though I don't think that is the best way to describe it. Unlike in America for the most part, culture in Europe is in some ways still linked to ethnicity or regionalism. What one would call a patriot in the US would transition to a nationalist in Europe, and nationalism can very much be a dangerous force that can once more rip Europe to shreds as it did in the interwar period, playing a useful role in the rise of fascism in Italy with its views on culture and the superiority of its own culture above others within Europe proper, without getting into the racial aspects that were later exacerbated in Weimar Germany. So, in a peaceful, stable, united, and for some, federal Europe, the more radical aspects that cultural identities can provide may endanger all that I just mentioned in this paragraph. So lessening the importance of these cultural identities, which have large links to the nations that would consist a united Europe, is seen as a necessity. But just lessening their importance would not get rid of them, especially since, as I previously mentioned, a federal Europe would not be stupid enough to try and get rid of other cultures.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52101982]Part. [editline]13th April 2017[/editline] I can't disagree with this enough. I live in immigrant central. I live in an area where the majority is chinese/korean/central asian, and the next largest population group are the people who grew up here, and the next largest demographic is immigrants from eastern europe. We're literally an immigrant culture. I personally have interacted with immigrants who understand the nuances of the language, they get regional differences in the words. It's not like it's impossible to explain that to people. It's difficult, but immigrants aren't a subset of people that lack the skills to socialize properly as a generalization. My experiences living in a culture of immigration is drastically different than the swedes who seem to comment on this topic a bunch. It's literally what i've grown up with.[/QUOTE] Well, it's the same for me really. I grew up when around 30-40 or so % of the kids in this town that I live in was Albanians. Sure, they tried their best to distance themselves as much as possible from us, but in the end they're just as much Swedish as we are now. Today the situations different though. Most immigrants are adults who lived their entire life in another country and even if they've lived here for 5-10 years and know the language inside out, they still don't get the culture around it and I'm guessing they might never be able to do it fully. My town's probably not even 50% Swedish by this point, so this is pretty immigrant central too and whenever I'm doing something related with immigrants I try to speak and befriend them normally like I would with any person, just to find myself having to repeat myself like 3 times and then speak completely dry and dully for the remaining time, because he couldn't understand the tone of my voice was a joke or something like that. It really sucks the fun out the situation and it doesn't feel worth it to try and be friends, when I feel like the dullest person on earth speaking with people like this.

[QUOTE=Damian0358;52103987]I feel as though the issue of cultural identities, as discussed in this argument/discussion/dialogue/whatever, is a bit of a flawed one, as it assumes that a federal government uniting many nations together into one will cause the nation's cultural identity to disappear. Whilst you may argue that the US is not comparable, I would argue that it is. Whilst it may have some unitary cultural ideas, such as the usage of English as the wider lingua franca, as well as some general things that they all agree with, the US in of itself is very much a mini-Europe in terms of the complexity of its own cultural continuum, from religious minorities such as the Amish and the Mormons, to ethnic minorities such as its Afro-American and Latino-American populations, all of which have their own culture that had persevered even at times when the wider popular culture may have been against them.[/QUOTE] These are large or isolated cultures existing in a country which is united through a shared language and pop culture. The need of the federal government to bring cultures closer together isn't there, which it probably would be if there existed several large diverse cultural minorites, more than just being subcultures. The US have pressured minorites into becoming part of the majority culture historically. [QUOTE]I believe the argument those who you may say want to "remove" it is that they want its importance to be lessened, though I don't think that is the best way to describe it. Unlike in America for the most part, culture in Europe is in some ways still linked to ethnicity or regionalism. What one would call a patriot in the US would transition to a nationalist in Europe, and nationalism can very much be a dangerous force that can once more rip Europe to shreds as it did in the interwar period, playing a useful role in the rise of fascism in Italy with its views on culture and the superiority of its own culture above others within Europe proper, without getting into the racial aspects that were later exacerbated in Weimar Germany. So, in a peaceful, stable, united, and for some, federal Europe, the more radical aspects that cultural identities can provide may endanger all that I just mentioned in this paragraph. So lessening the importance of these cultural identities, which have large links to the nations that would consist a united Europe, is seen as a necessity. But just lessening their importance would not get rid of them, especially since, as I previously mentioned, a federal Europe would not be stupid enough to try and get rid of other cultures.[/QUOTE] Isn't Europe already peaceful though and mostly cooperative, why further lessen what many Europeans hold dear to their hearts?

[QUOTE=RB33;52103985] At the cost of losing culture, even? [/QUOTE] Sweden lost its traditions of being an imperial, monarchist state because the people of Sweden felt that it was a backwards and worthless. But Sweden didn't lose its culture. Swedes still speak Swedish. Swedes can still have children. Swedes still have Swedish names. Swedes can still celebrate their holidays. A United Europe would still allow for Swedes to be Swedes, for Irish to be Irish, for Finns to be Finns. It wouldn't make being culturally unique illegal. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=RB33;52104019]The US have pressured minorites into becoming part of the majority culture historically.[/QUOTE] Yes because, historically, the United States held an extreme stance on unity via homogenization of cultures, and the public looked down on Catholics (especially Irish), blacks, mestizos, Italians, etc. The US was very much against the idea of public displays of one's area of heritage until the late 30s/40s (WWII helped somewhat), mainly due to fears of separatism or elitism amongst classes. The European Union is not like that. To make such a comparison is intellectually dishonest at best and downright asinine at worst.

Cultural identities aren't going to be "removed", but if we as Europeans are to unify, we'll start finding our current ideas of cultural identity old-fashion and regressive. As globalization progresses by things like the internet, nationalism and tradition prove to be rather poor arguments for policy.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52104026]Sweden lost its traditions of being an imperial, monarchist state because the people of Sweden felt that it was a backwards and worthless. But Sweden didn't lose its culture. Swedes still speak Swedish. Swedes can still have children. Swedes still have Swedish names. Swedes can still celebrate their holidays. A United Europe would still allow for Swedes to be Swedes, for Irish to be Irish, for Finns to be Finns. It wouldn't make being culturally unique illegal.[/QUOTE] If people start to feel cultural unity is more important, there might be movements to bring European culture closer to each other and lose some uniqueness as a result. People here says the identity should be lessened and there will always be more extreme people, so couldn't this become an issue in 30-50 years? [QUOTE][editline]14th April 2017[/editline] Yes because, historically, the United States held an extreme stance on unity via homogenization of cultures, and the public looked down on Catholics (especially Irish), blacks, mestizos, Italians, etc. The US was very much against the idea of public displays of one's area of heritage until the late 30s/40s (WWII helped somewhat), mainly due to fears of separatism or elitism amongst classes. The European Union is not like that. To make such a comparison is intellectually dishonest at best and downright asinine at worst.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying that, i'm saying that the US is not comparable because all of its major cultures are far too similar to be compared to vast cultural differences of the EU. The pressure comment was just to show what the US did, not that the EU will take the same path.

[QUOTE=RB33;52103985]At the cost of losing culture, even? By decreasing the significance of identities, the culture attached to them start to lose their value. With no proper identity having that culture as a core, people will move away from it and adopt different culture. If no one is left to safeguard the culture, it will be forgotten and lost for future generations. It might not even make it into a museum.[/QUOTE] Something that many have already mentioned is that the European Union already does much to fund, promote and possibly even flaunt the cultures that are a part of its member states. Europe's diversity is something the EU would never forsaken, and if there were a time where we had a federal Europe, it would more than likely safeguard its cultures, becoming their defender and protector. Heck, a federal Europe might even take the opportunity to grow appreciation for the many native minority cultures that exist, such as the Kashubians and the Aromanians, and make sure no one ever forgets that they are a thing too. It would serve as the Vanguard of Europe's many cultures, making sure none of them would ever be lost. [QUOTE=RB33;52104019]Isn't Europe already peaceful though and mostly cooperative, why further lessen what many Europeans hold dear to their hearts?[/QUOTE] Whilst it is already peaceful, our cooperation could use some work. Another issue with cultural identities is that they may hold and harbor outdated views towards other cultural identities or nations with its basis for such views being in, among other things, history. For example, as a result of the history of the Serbs and its own historiography, many Serbs may hold lesser views of the Turks, remembering their times under the Ottoman Empire, believing that they could do nothing to forgive them for what they had done to them during that occupation, and I would imagine similar views exist in Bulgaria, Greece, Macedonia, and to a lesser extent, Albania, Bosnia, and Romania. The animosity that had formed between the French and the Germans and lasted until the end of WW2 would shape their cultural identities in a negative direction. So, that would be another reason next to the one previously mentioned why people would want to lessen the importance of cultural identities.

[QUOTE=RB33;52104051]If people start to feel cultural unity is more important, there might be movements to bring European culture closer to each other and lose some uniqueness as a result. People here says the identity should be lessened and there will always be more extreme people, so couldn't this become an issue in 30-50 years?[/QUOTE] No probably not because all the people who shriek about "But what about the culture!" probably never actually cared about the culture in the first place until foreigners were involved.

[QUOTE=Damian0358;52104052]Something that many have already mentioned is that the European Union already does much to fund, promote and possibly even flaunt the cultures that are a part of its member states. Europe's diversity is something the EU would never forsaken, and if there were a time where we had a federal Europe, it would more than likely safeguard its cultures, becoming their defender and protector. Heck, a federal Europe might even take the opportunity to grow appreciation for the many native minority cultures that exist, such as the Kashubians and the Aromanians, and make sure no one ever forgets that they are a thing too. It would serve as the Vanguard of Europe's many cultures, making sure none of them would ever be lost.[/QUOTE] This is an optimistic viewpoint and we still have to see what the EU will do. [QUOTE]Whilst it is already peaceful, our cooperation could use some work. Another issue with cultural identities is that they may hold and harbor outdated views towards other cultural identities or nations with its basis for such views being in, among other things, history. For example, as a result of the history of the Serbs and its own historiography, many Serbs may hold lesser views of the Turks, remembering their times under the Ottoman Empire, believing that they could do nothing to forgive them for what they had done to them during that occupation, and I would imagine similar views exist in Bulgaria, Greece, Macedonia, and to a lesser extent, Albania, Bosnia, and Romania. The animosity that had formed between the French and the Germans and lasted until the end of WW2 would shape their cultural identities in a negative direction. So, that would be another reason next to the one previously mentioned why people would want to lessen the importance of cultural identities.[/QUOTE] Which is why you educate people to not feel hate for things that happened long before they were born. Not lessen cultural identites, the identities do so much more good than bad, that's seems to be lost in this thread. People's being united as one people have composed music, written books and invented lots of traditions for themselves to share a common identity. With lessening the importance, this culture will also lose importance and usage. The diversity of the world has contributed so much for culture and history, I can only see it decrease if it loses importance. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52104054]No probably not because all the people who shriek about "But what about the culture!" probably never actually cared about the culture in the first place until foreigners were involved.[/QUOTE] Well, that's a huge generalization. Some of them will have deeper motivations than that, as do I.

[QUOTE=RB33;52104072]This is an optimistic viewpoint and we still have to see what the EU will do.[/QUOTE] It may be, but we have enough examples from reality for such a viewpoint to be justified. [QUOTE=RB33;52104072]Which is why you educate people to not feel hate for things that happened long before they were born. Not lessen cultural identites, the identities do so much more good than bad, that's seems to be lost in this thread. People's being united as one people have composed music, written books and invented lots of traditions for themselves to share a common identity. With lessening the importance, this culture will also lose importance and usage.[/QUOTE] I would call this an optimistic viewpoint as well. National historiography, at least that which had been developing for several centuries, spread through oral tales before being written down, can be incredibly difficult to change, and hatred within one's nation can be used to the advantage of many, including politicians and pseudohistorians, especially those less informed in topics such as history. Hatred isn't easy to educate people not to have. Also, we return once more to the vague usage of "culture" and "identity". You seem to believe that cultural identity is inextricably linked to culture proper, when it is just the feeling of identification with a culture, and thus does not directly influence culture proper as much. This confusion may be why you believe the lessening of cultural identities is bad for you, since you believe their lessening would lead to a lessening of culture proper. Culture influences identity more, not vice versa. If that weren't the case, than many of the minority cultures I've previously mentioned would more than likely not exist today.

Am okey with cultures dies.

[QUOTE=Damian0358;52104087]I would call this an optimistic viewpoint as well. National historiography, at least that which had been developing for several centuries, spread through oral tales before being written down, can be incredibly difficult to change, and hatred within one's nation can be used to the advantage of many, including politicians and pseudohistorians, especially those less informed in topics such as history. Hatred isn't easy to educate people not to have.[/QUOTE] Harder than teaching people to not value cultural identities? [QUOTE]Also, we return once more to the vague usage of "culture" and "identity". You seem to believe that cultural identity is inextricably linked to culture proper, when it is just the feeling of identification with a culture, and thus does not directly influence culture proper as much. This confusion may be why you believe the lessening of cultural identities is bad for you, since you believe their lessening would lead to a lessening of culture proper. Culture influences identity more, not vice versa. If that weren't the case, than many of the minority cultures I've previously mentioned would more than likely not exist today.[/QUOTE] You can have more than one identity though. Many cultures are dying and have died as a result of lessening the importance of certain identities. Something else has been more appealing and have replaced that culture, a common identity have been raised as a bar for everyone to adjust themselves to. If a European identity becomes the primary identity for many people, their other culture will decline. Whatever characteristics associated with being European becomes more important to achieve than keeping their old culture.

Their old culture will simply be mixed with the new one. How fucking hard is that to understand?

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[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52104171]Their old culture will simply be mixed with the new one. How fucking hard is that to understand?[/QUOTE] This is exactly what's bad, why is that hard to understand? You fail to see the risks in what you're talking about or simply don't care. Both which are a shame for disappearing culture and traditions.

[QUOTE=RB33;52104514]This is exactly what's bad, why is that hard to understand? You fail to see the risks in what you're talking about or simply don't care. Both which are a shame for disappearing culture and traditions.[/QUOTE] I mean...it'll just make a new culture. You don't have to hold onto every old ideal from the past, this is how humanity has evolved. The native americans here still hold onto a lot of their old culture and traditions, even after being integrated into 'american' society and culture.

[QUOTE=Naught;52104539]I mean...it'll just make a new culture. You don't have to hold onto every old ideal from the past, this is how humanity has evolved. The native americans here still hold onto a lot of their old culture and traditions, even after being integrated into 'american' society and culture.[/QUOTE] What if people want to keep it, can't we just let them? And a new culture doesn't mean a good culture, especially if you already have what you consider a good culture. Some people here seem to want change for change's sake or that culture can be somewhat problematic, because hate and discrimination will be a possibility, well, in a free society people will just do what they like. We shouldn't pressure anyone to change their identity, would anyone here do that if the topic was gender instead? The same arguments could be made there and it would also sound stupid.

Holy shit, cultures are constantly evolving. It doesn't matter what you, I, your government, the EU, or anyone else does, the culture you know will eventually be gone and replaced with a new one.

[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52104631]Holy shit, cultures are constantly evolving. It doesn't matter what you, I, your government, the EU, or anyone else does, the culture you know will eventually be gone and replaced with a new one.[/QUOTE] When? Tomorrow, in 10 years or 500 years. I'm not that stupid that i think cultures are immortal but that doesn't matter. My views are not invalidated because change is inevitable with enough time.

[QUOTE=RB33;52104638]When? Tomorrow, in 10 years or 500 years. I'm not that stupid that i think cultures are immortal but that doesn't matter. My views are not invalidated because change is inevitable with enough time.[/QUOTE] Yes, your views aren't invalidated. You're perfectly within your rights to be afraid of the inevitable. Unfortunately you being afraid of it isn't going to stop it, and no one else really gives a fuck. It'd be like if I came on here and was like "Hey everyone!!! Death is scary!!!! We need to stop it from happening!!" and when people respond with "death is just a part of life, you can't stop it from happening" I'd say "guys you aren't helping!!!!!!" Part of becoming an adult is learning to cope with reality. Deal with it.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;52104652]Yes, your views aren't invalidated. You're perfectly within your rights to be afraid of the inevitable. Unfortunately you being afraid of it isn't going to stop it, and no one else really gives a fuck. It'd be like if I came on here and was like "Hey everyone!!! Death is scary!!!! We need to stop it from happening!!" and when people respond with "death is just a part of life, you can't stop it from happening" I'd say "guys you aren't helping!!!!!!" Part of becoming an adult is learning to cope with reality. Deal with it.[/QUOTE] So why care about healthcare, if we're all going to die? That's the same argument then. Culture is doomed to change and we are all doomed to die. So why even do anything about them? This is not a good argument.

[QUOTE=RB33;52103985]At the cost of losing culture, even? By decreasing the significance of identities, the culture attached to them start to lose their value. With no proper identity having that culture as a core, people will move away from it and adopt different culture. If no one is left to safeguard the culture, it will be forgotten and lost for future generations. It might not even make it into a museum.[/QUOTE] This is okay and you have yet to provide a good reason as to why it isn't. The people who don't want to forget their culture are the ones who will carry on these traditions and in the situation that there are no such people, that's fine. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] People will have fika pauses until there are no more people who want to have fika pauses.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52104666]This is okay and you have yet to provide a good reason as to why it isn't. The people who don't want to forget their culture are the ones who will carry on these traditions and in the situation that there are no such people, that's fine. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] People will have fika pauses until there are no more people who want to have fika pauses.[/QUOTE] Would it be okay for you if we lost documents from ancient Greece, statues from Rome and music and paintings from renaissance artists? To never be seen again, permanently lose that part of our history and foundation of our current culture. [QUOTE]People will have fika pauses until there are no more people who want to have fika pauses.[/QUOTE] I shouldn't have mentioned it, now you think fika is the epitome of culture.

[QUOTE=RB33;52104681]Would it be okay for you if we lost documents from ancient Greece, statues from Rome and music and paintings from renaissance artists? To never be seen again, permanently lose that part of our history and foundation of our current culture.[/QUOTE] Unification doesn't somehow destroy ancient monuments or history lmao

People simply aren't always going to act and think the way they do now. That just isn't how people work. That isn't what people [I]want[/I] to do. You can get upset at people not wanting to do what you want them to do for the rest of your life, or you can get over it.

I honestly don't have a clue what you want or how you want it to be achieved People in cultures change. In your life things will change. My dad was born in 1942, he saw the deployment of refrigerated rail cars when he was 10, and a whole huge change followed. How are you going to stop this? If it was 100 years ago, what would you be asking gets stopped back then? Yeah progress and change are scary but no one is trying to destroy your culture, but it will die and you can't stop that.

[QUOTE=ThatSwordGuy;52104712]Unification doesn't somehow destroy ancient monuments or history lmao[/QUOTE] It might destroy customs and traditions that kept cultures unique for centuries, if not cared for. Why is it okay to get rid of living history but material things tend to cared for? Both are part of history and culture.

[QUOTE=RB33;52104681]Would it be okay for you if we lost documents from ancient Greece, statues from Rome and music and paintings from renaissance artists? To never be seen again, permanently lose that part of our history and foundation of our current culture.[/QUOTE] No that'd be sad, but that's not what we're talking about when we're talking about the "costs" of a more unified europe. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] I'm only mentioning fika cause it's an example of a cultural tradition. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] In fact I believe all those things you mentioned in that post would be even safer in a more unified europe.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52104720]I honestly don't have a clue what you want or how you want it to be achieved People in cultures change. In your life things will change. My dad was born in 1942, he saw the deployment of refrigerated rail cars when he was 10, and a whole huge change followed. How are you going to stop this? If it was 100 years ago, what would you be asking gets stopped back then? Yeah progress and change are scary but no one is trying to destroy your culture, but it will die and you can't stop that.[/QUOTE] It's the same argument as to not do anything because it won't matter anyway. Only lazy or indifferent people use that in real life to not do stuff. You might not care, but do you have to label people as wasting their time for contributing to things here and now? Things they like, like you guys probably contribute to the things, you yourselves enjoy.