Kurzgesagt: Is the European Union Worth It Or Should We End It? - General

Why are you still saying the same fucking thing after 6 pages? You are continuously raising the same argument against different people and giving the same answers without progressing this in any way. What exactly are you trying to say? What do you want from the EU? What is it that you want changed from the way things currently are?

[QUOTE=RB33;52104736]It's the same argument as to not do anything because it won't matter anyway. Only lazy or indifferent people use that in real life to not do stuff. You might not care, but do you have to label people as wasting their time for contributing to things here and now? Things they like, like you guys probably contribute to the things, you yourselves enjoy.[/QUOTE] I don't think you're even getting my argument Hold onto your traditions if you want to, no one is stopping you. I'm not saying be lazy or indifferent. I'm saying understand what you're asking of culture as a whole. For it to stop changing across an entire culture is unrealistic. My dad grew up on a farm in the east, when those rail cars rolled out it meant a change for the lively hoods of farmers in that area. It changed the local culture. How do you stop that?

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52104722]No that'd be sad, but that's not what we're talking about when we're talking about the "costs" of a more unified europe. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] I'm only mentioning fika cause it's an example of a cultural tradition. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] In fact I believe all those things you mentioned in that post would be even safer in a more unified europe.[/QUOTE] Midsommar, Jultomten (the Swedish one), Valborgsmässoafton and the traditions surrounding that, all the local cultural initiatives, the large richness in language and dialects, old traditional music. I'm not okay with losing that, just to be in a economic club when we're already doing fine. It isn't worth losing what we are and have. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Big Bang;52104761]Why are you still saying the same fucking thing after 6 pages? You are continuously raising the same argument against different people and giving the same answers without progressing this in any way. What exactly are you trying to say? What do you want from the EU? What is it that you want changed from the way things currently are?[/QUOTE] Additional protections for local culture would be great, otherwise I want you guys staying out of EU decison-making regarding culture.

Good thing you won't lose it. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] Same to you. Never get involved with anything regarding culture and bless us all.

[QUOTE=RB33;52104770]Midsommar, Jultomten (the Swedish one), Valborgsmässoafton and the traditions surrounding that, all the local cultural initiatives, the large richness in language and dialects, old traditional music. I'm not okay with losing that, just to be in a economic club when we're already doing fine. It isn't worth losing what we are and have. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] Additional protections for local culture would be great, otherwise I want you guys staying out of EU decison-making regarding culture.[/QUOTE] Why would that disappear without a reason

[QUOTE=RB33;52104770]Midsommar, Jultomten (the Swedish one), Valborgsmässoafton and the traditions surrounding that, all the local cultural initiatives, the large richness in language and dialects, old traditional music. I'm not okay with losing that, just to be in a economic club when we're already doing fine. It isn't worth losing what we are and have.[/QUOTE] And none of those things will go away as long as there are still people who care about them. Unification may lead to your children not caring as much about it as you, and their children caring even less, but that's just how it works. You're scared of a ghost.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52104767]I don't think you're even getting my argument Hold onto your traditions if you want to, no one is stopping you. I'm not saying be lazy or indifferent. I'm saying understand what you're asking of culture as a whole. For it to stop changing across an entire culture is unrealistic. My dad grew up on a farm in the east, when those rail cars rolled out it meant a change for the lively hoods of farmers in that area. It changed the local culture. How do you stop that?[/QUOTE] I'm not anti-technology, that doesn't mean we have to kill off traditions that are hundreds of years old and made us into what we are now. We have already kept traditions that technology made obsolete long ago, we still like doing them. They are fun and lets us delve deep into our cultural roots and understand our ancestors.

Who has threatened those traditions? Even I celebrated Midsommar after being less than a month in Sweden with my roommates, it's in no way something that is being phased out. I fucking told you about one of the dialects that [I]is[/I] in danger of going extinct due to the urbanization of Sweden and that is a fundamental part of the Scanian identity and you dismissed it, saying it was terrible. I'm not too sure you're qualified to be an arbiter of what cultures to preserve either.

[QUOTE=RB33;52104798]I'm not anti-technology, that doesn't mean we have to kill off traditions that are hundreds of years old and made us into what we are now. We have already kept traditions that technology made obsolete long ago, we still like doing them. They are fun and lets us delve deep into our cultural roots and understand our ancestors.[/QUOTE] You're arguing against no one You've never had an actual opponent in this thread but you've repeated the same shit for 6 pages. No one is saying "let's remove this culture.". You're arguing against no one

[QUOTE=RB33;52104798]I'm not anti-technology, that doesn't mean we have to kill off traditions that are hundreds of years old and made us into what we are now. We have already kept traditions that technology made obsolete long ago, we still like doing them. They are fun and lets us delve deep into our cultural roots and understand our ancestors.[/QUOTE] [B]?????[/B] Like legit what kind of hyperbole are you doing here. You seem to think the EU is some kind of "ok, how do we illegalize traditions and culture" organ or some shit.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52104784]Why would that disappear without a reason[/QUOTE] It being pushed away due to foreign influence and pressure, a further centralization and standardization of the language and culture. [QUOTE=MrJazzy;52104788]And none of those things will go away as long as there are still people who care about them. Unification may lead to your children not caring as much about it as you, and their children caring even less, but that's just how it works. You're scared of a ghost.[/QUOTE] You just said it will happen, then you say it's a ghost. You know, that's why some people care and try to do something about it instead of just going "it will just die anyway, don't even try preserve stuff".

[QUOTE=RB33;52104818]It being pushed away due to foreign influence and pressure, a further centralization and standardization of the language and culture. You just said it will happen, then you say it's a ghost. You know, that's why some people care and try to do something about it instead of just go "it will just die anyway, don't even try preserve stuff".[/QUOTE] He's not even saying that. It will happen you cannot stop that. It doesn't mean anyone here has ever told you "don't".

[QUOTE=Big Bang;52104801]Who has threatened those traditions? Even I celebrated Midsommar after being less than a month in Sweden with my roommates, it's in no way something that is being phased out. I fucking told you about one of the dialects that [I]is[/I] in danger of going extinct due to the urbanization of Sweden and that is a fundamental part of the Scanian identity and you dismissed it, saying it was terrible. I'm not too sure you're qualified to be an arbiter of what cultures to preserve either.[/QUOTE] The most common after Christmas probably, also the top excuse to get drunk, it isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Some of the examples are long-term, as we integrate and join culturally with Europe. These things will gradually disappear. Faster than if we actively try to preserve them.

[QUOTE=RB33;52104827]The most common after Christmas probably, also the top excuse to get drunk, it isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Some of the examples are long-term, as we integrate and join culturally with Europe. These things will gradually disappear. [B]Faster than if we actively try to preserve them.[/B][/QUOTE] Can you please explain what do you particularly mean by this? [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] Also how do you think we should go about "preserving culture".

[QUOTE=RB33;52104818]You just said it will happen, then you say it's a ghost. You know, that's why some people care and try to do something about it instead of just going "it will just die anyway, don't even try preserve stuff".[/QUOTE] You can't honestly expect people to hold on to these traditions for generations and generations. You can't control the evolution of culture, you certainly can't stop it. I think people like you who are so passionate about culture are great, and it's up to you to preserve the culture you care about, by taking part in traditions and telling others about them - not by fighting the unification of europe. Globalism, climate change, human rights, poverty are the kinds of issues a unified Europe could adress.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52104807]You're arguing against no one You've never had an actual opponent in this thread but you've repeated the same shit for 6 pages. No one is saying "let's remove this culture.". You're arguing against no one[/QUOTE] I admit, I have been carried away at times, talking against points no one made. Still, this started with that cultural identity is something worth sacrificing for greater integration and progress in Europe. I disagree, why should you sell away a large part of your identity? You will disagree with me as we have seen, I don't think it's worth it. You haven't accepted my arguments and priorities, sometimes that's just how it is. We really have nothing more to say to each other, we fundamentally disagree over what's important.

[QUOTE=RB33;52104846]I admit, I have been carried away at times, talking against points no one made. Still, this started with that cultural identity is something worth sacrificing for greater integration and progress in Europe. I disagree, why should you sell away large part of your identity? You will disagree with me as we have seen, I don't think it's worth it. You haven't accepted my arguments and priorities, sometimes that's just how it is. We really have nothing more to say to each other, we fundamentally disagree over what's important.[/QUOTE] Well you're fear mongering that your culture will be destroyed when that's not the case Joining the EU isn't going to destroy your culture and it's pretty baseless to post for 6 pages about how that's the only outcome

[QUOTE=RB33;52104846]I admit, I have been carried away at times, talking against points no one made. Still, this started with that cultural identity is something worth sacrificing for greater integration and progress in Europe. I disagree, why should you sell away large part of your identity? You will disagree with me as we have seen, I don't think it's worth it. You haven't accepted my arguments and priorities, sometimes that's just how it is. We really have nothing more to say to each other, we fundamentally disagree over what's important.[/QUOTE] And you still haven't managed to explain why cultural identity means so much that it's more important to preserve it than to have progress.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52104855]Well you're fear mongering that your culture will be destroyed when that's not the case Joining the EU isn't going to destroy your culture and it's pretty baseless to post for 6 pages about how that's the only outcome[/QUOTE] It was never about the EU having to destroy anyone's culture, it will contribute to it naturally, that's just how international cooperation and cultural exchange is. From my part, this discussion was about that people wanted to use the EU as a tool to make the natural progression go even faster and actively try to wipe away cultural identities. Which are already on the decline with a continent-spanning union.

Foreign influence from what? Europe? You're aware how much of Swedish culture is actually pan-European, how much of it is specifically German in origin? Swedish culture is richer because of its connection to Europe. The European Union [I]pays[/I] for cultural preservation projects. It has never attempted to get rid of the specific culture of any one region.

[QUOTE=RB33;52104867]It was never about the EU having to destroy anyone's culture, it will contribute to it naturally, that's just how international cooperation and cultural exchange is. From my part, this discussion was about that people wanted to use the EU as a tool to make the natural progression go even faster and actively try to wipe away cultural identities. Which are already on the decline with a continent-spanning union.[/QUOTE] No, people wanted the EU to crack down on undemocratic countries and prevent unstable economies.

[QUOTE=Dom Pyroshark;52104833]Can you please explain what do you particularly mean by this? [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] Also how do you think we should go about "preserving culture".[/QUOTE] With the EU, cultural influence will spread more across borders and make already weak parts of the local culture go away. By incentivizing and encourage people to take part in traditions and local culture. Teach young people their cultural background in schools. [QUOTE=MrJazzy;52104842]You can't honestly expect people to hold on to these traditions for generations and generations. You can't control the evolution of culture, you certainly can't stop it. I think people like you who are so passionate about culture are great, and it's up to you to preserve the culture you care about, by taking part in traditions and telling others about them - not by fighting the unification of europe. Globalism, climate change, human rights, poverty are the kinds of issues a unified Europe could adress.[/QUOTE] I'm not against a working EU, I will oppose an EU that does not have the best interests of it's people in mind (including their culture).

[QUOTE=RB33;52104885]With the EU, cultural influence will spread more across borders and make already weak parts of the local culture go away. By incentivizing and encourage people to take part in traditions and local culture. Teach young people their cultural background in schools.[/QUOTE] And literally 0 people in this thread have a problem with this, it's exactly what should be done to preserve culture - and EU would only help that.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52104888]And literally 0 people in this thread have a problem with this, it's exactly what should be done to preserve culture - and EU would only help that.[/QUOTE] Still lots of people seem to think there's no point of preserving culture in this thread. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=MrJazzy;52104862]And you still haven't managed to explain why cultural identity means so much that it's more important to preserve it than to have progress.[/QUOTE] We are rich (compared to the rest of the world), we got food, we got computer games. Then we have to get rid of culture to somehow keep that edge? Why is trading in culture for more "progress" something we should do? We already have it good, so why take away identities and culture? Is there a limit to what we are willing to trade away for the progress we seek? Can't we just be content?

[QUOTE=RB33;52104894]Still lots of people seem to think there's no point of preserving culture in this thread.[/QUOTE] That may have something to do with your very first two posts in this thread. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=RB33;52104894]Still lots of people seem to think there's no point of preserving culture in this thread. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] We are rich (compared to the rest of the world), we got food, we got computer games. Then we have to get rid of culture to somehow keep that edge? Why is trading in culture for more "progress" something we should do? We already have it good, so why take away identities and culture? Is there a limit to what we are willing to trade away for the progress we seek?[/QUOTE] You haven't answered my question and instead interpreted it as some sort of claim that has nothing to do with what I'm actually asking. And this isn't about us in Sweden, it's bigger than that.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52104906]That may have something to do with your very first two posts in this thread.[/QUOTE] Someone said he wants to literally take cultural identities away, the Soviets did that, Hitler tried to. That alone should make us uncomfortable in doing anything close to similar. I did equalize cultural identity with culture, so by that logic. He was trying to make Europe into a big cultural blob by removing the cultural identites/cultures. I was appalled over how you guys could even agree with that.

[QUOTE=RB33;52104885]With the EU, cultural influence will spread more across borders and make already weak parts of the local culture go away. By incentivizing and encourage people to take part in traditions and local culture. Teach young people their cultural background in schools.[/QUOTE] So? That's been happening for centuries now and as long it people are doing it willingly, I don't see a problem with this. No one can force culture away but you also cannot force it to stay in the same shape.

Are you talking about this? [QUOTE=Marbalo;52098127]A united Europe is a step in the right direction. Cultural identity becoming a potential victim is a totally acceptable collateral victim of this process, because it serves very little purpose beyond cultivating aggressive nationalism, distrust of arbitrarily condemned "foreigners", and sews the seeds of isolationism in both the public and the government. All of these things are factually bad for the economy and the quality of life of citizens.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52104906]You haven't answered my question and instead interpreted it as some sort of claim that has nothing to do with what I'm actually asking. And this isn't about us in Sweden, it's bigger than that.[/QUOTE] I was talking about Europe, our culture is who we are. From our first words, social interactions through working life. What we do, how it's appropriate to act with others, what we like as entertainment (although, this has grown more individual over time). Why we celebrate Christmas every year, light a fire on Valborg and wave a flag for our country or culture. Without it, we lose much of who we are. That's why it's important. [editline]14th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=MrJazzy;52104931]Are you talking about this?[/QUOTE] Yes, I thought I made this clear a couple of times.

I've just read through this entire thread and holy crap is RB33 the human manifestation of "fear of change". Culture is an important thing, yes, but holy shit you're absolutely petrified of your culture changing. As it's been stated [B] plenty [/B] of times, a unified EU would not force any members to completely drop their culture and [I] assimilate into the non-cultured EU blob[/I]. There would be a common culture, however the cultural traditions you are morbidly terrified of changing or disappear would still be alive. They'd just rely on the country at hand to keep it up - just like how, today, there's still plenty of gaelic traditions that go on in scotland despite it definitely being something from the past and loads of museums and groups exist dedicated to practising them and keeping them alive. Whilst at some point these traditions will inevitably fade to a wikipedia page, it won't happen in your lifetime, and lord it's absolutely not something to be freaking out over as much as you are. The benefits of a unified EU outweigh the [B]fear[/B] that some cultures [B] may [/B] slightly change that you personally bear. I'd also like to just point out that RB33's opinion is fairly set and doesn't seem like he's going to shift it, despite the countless well-reasoned arguments he's been presented with. Most of the people on the thread appear to have the same mindset, so honestly at this point (5+ pages), it might be worth it to just let it be.