Kurzgesagt: Is the European Union Worth It Or Should We End It? - General

Yes, from now on, let's just ignore?

[QUOTE=Instant Mix;52104957]I've just read through this entire thread and holy crap is RB33 the human manifestation of "fear of change". Culture is an important thing, yes, but holy shit you're absolutely petrified of your culture changing. As it's been stated [B] plenty [/B] of times, a unified EU would not force any members to completely drop their culture and [I] assimilate into the non-cultured EU blob[/I]. There would be a common culture, however the cultural traditions you are morbidly terrified of changing or disappear would still be alive. They'd just rely on the country at hand to keep it up - just like how, today, there's still plenty of gaelic traditions that go on in scotland despite it definitely being something from the past and loads of museums and groups dedicated to practicing and keeping them alive. Whilst at some point these traditions will inevitably fade to a wikipedia page, it won't happen in your lifetime, and lord it's absolutely not something to be freaking out over as much as you are. The benefits of a unified EU outweigh the [B]fear[/B] that some cultures [B] may [/B] slightly change that you personally bear. I'd also like to just point out that RB33's opinion is fairly set and doesn't seem like he's going to shift it, despite the countless well-reasoned arguments he's been presented with. Most of the people on the thread appear to have the same mindset, so honestly at this point (5+ pages), it might be worth it to just let it be.[/QUOTE] I don't want to keep this argument going for more pages but here's my response just to clarify: I'm not afraid of the EU, i'm afraid of what if people like in this thread will do when culture is just an acceptable collateral victim in the strive for progress get into power in the EU. I'm not scared for the mainstream traditions, those will keep living for a long while. It's the local traditions that are already dying or have died. The pressure on them might only increase with the EU, if the EU goes in the wrong direction, progress before culture. The depth of language-like dialects disappearing and will be lost, old forms of music, art and craftsmanship will be lost. I guess it's more general than EU-specific. If we get to have the EU, it should work towards strengthening and preserving culture.

[QUOTE=RB33;52105010]I don't want to keep this argument going for more pages but here's my response just to clarify: I'm not afraid of the EU, i'm afraid of what if people like in this thread will do when culture is just an acceptable collateral victim in the strive for progress get into power in the EU. I'm not scared for the mainstream traditions, those will keep living for a long while. It's the local traditions that are already dying or have died. The pressure on them might only increase with the EU, if the EU goes in the wrong direction, progress before culture. The depth of language-like dialects disappearing and will be lost, old forms of music, art and craftmanship will be lost. I guess is more general than EU-specific. If we get to have the EU, it should work towards strengthening and preserving culture.[/QUOTE] There's one person. One. Marbolo, and yet you conflate everyones opinions with his and ignore everything anyone actually said to just argue against one dude who left a long time ago. The EU, as we have been telling you pretty consistently, actually funds cultural preservation. You have argued against strawmen for pages dude.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52105019]There's one person. One. Marbolo, and yet you conflate everyones opinions with his and ignore everything anyone actually said to just argue against one dude who left a long time ago. The EU, as we have been telling you pretty consistently, actually funds cultural preservation. You have argued against strawmen for pages dude.[/QUOTE] Why even bring up that culture will inevitable die then, is that going to stop me from preserving what I value? People have shown to be more interested in progress than culture while at the same failing to define it. I still think you failed to address some of my points, about why cultural identities should be pushed aside and how that actually results in better lives for people. Other than vague statements and "that's just how it is".

[QUOTE=RB33;52105032]Why even bring up that culture will inevitable die then, is that going to stop me from preserving what I value? People have shown to be more interested in progress than culture while at the same failing to define it. I still think you failed to address some of my points, about why cultural identities should be pushed aside and how that actually results in better lives for people. Other than vague statements and "that's just how it is".[/QUOTE] I'm hoping I am going to be the last post directed towards you, however the second part of your rebuttal completely fails to acknowledge HumanAbyss' first point, which, I shall bold and italicise for you. [b][i]There's one person. One. Marbolo, and yet you conflate everyones opinions with his and ignore everything anyone actually said to just argue against one dude who left a long time ago. [/b][/i] May this please be the final reply to RB33 on this topic

[QUOTE=Instant Mix;52105094]I'm hoping I am going to be the last post directed towards you, however the second part of your rebuttal completely fails to acknowledge HumanAbyss' first point, which, I shall bold and italicise for you. [b][i]There's one person. One. Marbolo, and yet you conflate everyones opinions with his and ignore everything anyone actually said to just argue against one dude who left a long time ago. [/b][/i] May this please be the final reply to RB33 on this topic[/QUOTE] And they were people who had similar beliefs as him and some who argued against me on topics, which we actually agreed on. In the future, please ask before me before some of you assume i'm anti-EU and international cooperation and we end up arguing in vain. A bunch of assumptions from lots of people (including me) made this worse than it had to be. [QUOTE=RB33;52104920][B]Someone said he wants to literally take cultural identities away, the Soviets did that, Hitler tried to. That alone should make us uncomfortable in doing anything close to similar. I did equalize cultural identity with culture, so by that logic. He was trying to make Europe into a big cultural blob by removing the cultural identites/cultures. I was appalled over how you guys could even agree with that.[/B][/QUOTE] I'm sorry if people think i'm stupid for assuming that wrong.

[QUOTE=RB33;52104589]What if people want to keep it, can't we just let them? And a new culture doesn't mean a good culture, especially if you already have what you consider a good culture. Some people here seem to want change for change's sake or that culture can be somewhat problematic, because hate and discrimination will be a possibility, well, in a free society people will just do what they like. We shouldn't pressure anyone to change their identity, would anyone here do that if the topic was gender instead? The same arguments could be made there and it would also sound stupid.[/QUOTE] what? yea, they can keep their culture...why do you think that an integrated society is just going to destroy all culture and no one will be able to keep it? And it'll be done against their will? That clearly hasn't happened whatsoever with any place in the EU. Not to mention america, where many states are totally different compared to others. No one is pressuring anyone to change anything. And your last bit doesn't make any sense. Different genders don't live in different communities. The genders have been mixed since the beginning of time.

[QUOTE=Chopstick;52103479]I think the economic growth idea of the EU is still hanging in the balance of being a benefit, we've had austerity for 10 years and nothing much has changed since back then except that our roads are a lot shittier with council's being tight on money and turning off street lights along with budget problems with the NHS meanwhilst that economic benefit lines the pockets of business rather than the average person seeing that we're getting benefit cuts and our wages have stagnated with all the pay freezes and inflation of goods.[/QUOTE] Probably a bit late to this one. But this has very little to do with the EU, and everything to do with our country being a collection of goobers who keep voting the Tories in just as stuff is starting to get good once again. We've been in the EU since the 70s, we've seen economic booms in the decades since. Our public services were really strong for a while too. But every time our economy starts doing well for some unknowable fucking reason people re-elect the Tories who promptly cut services, reduce spending (which causes stagnation of the public sector) and try their damnedest to remove protections put in place by earlier parties to protect the economy. Well, until the nu-labour menace arrived and allowed the whole "too big to fail" thing to become a real problem in the last decade.

[QUOTE=Naught;52105278]what? yea, they can keep their culture...why do you think that an integrated society is just going to destroy all culture and no one will be able to keep it? And it'll be done against their will? That clearly hasn't happened whatsoever with any place in the EU. Not to mention america, where many states are totally different compared to others. No one is pressuring anyone to change anything. And your last bit doesn't make any sense. Different genders don't live in different communities. The genders have been mixed since the beginning of time.[/QUOTE] If it's a new culture, it's not the same culture. You wouldn't say Romans and French people are of the same culture, although they are related. I don't think integration will destroy culture, just if you're careless about it, then it's one of the risks. Everything, i've said has been a hypothetical argument in case it would happen. I only took part in this thread because someone said something that I interpreted as being in favour of that. Yes, but it's about progress vs culture. If you're transgender, some might argue that just having 2 genders would be more stable and so on. Similar to that it would be more stable to just have 1 culture as some might think. Both are stupid, that's my point.

I'm having a hard time seeing much point to your point.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105354]I'm having a hard time seeing much point to your point.[/QUOTE] If you wouldn't argue that 2 genders are more stable, why would you argue that 1 culture is more stable? Maybe, you do argue for both, i don't know.

That doesn't make sense at the most basic level

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52105366]That doesn't make sense at the most basic level[/QUOTE] Less things means less division, which means more stability, i guess.

[QUOTE=RB33;52105362]If you wouldn't argue that 2 genders are more stable, why would you argue that 1 culture is more stable? Maybe, you do argue for both, i don't know.[/QUOTE] I'd argue that the stability is irrelevant? Also, the stability of a culture is based on its appeal. If a culture has lost its appeal is it really worth saving? Not that that matters because as pointed out a ridiculous number of times already: those pieces of cultural identity are still being specifically preserved by the EU regardless of how they appeal to folks. The 'appeal' of having two or more genders is irrelevant to the discussion of genders as well - that's more a discussion about personal freedoms and identity. A culture's appeal doesn't inherently deserve protection - it must be earned. Whether or not the EU decides to prop up a culture has no impact on whether it appeals to people -- that's the base stability you ought be concerned about if you're concerned at all. Edit: If the US paid Mormons so that they could more effectively constantly show up on my doorstep, do you think that will automatically increase the appeal of mormonism to me? All that's accomplished there is increasing my exposure to that culture/religion; it won't change my mind about Mormons or Mormonism on its own. In fact, allowing it to be more easily forced down my throat will only further kill its appeal to me.

But no ones arguing for a monoculture so what are you even saying Like I'll be honest, you're frustrating as hell because you have glazed over entire posts to repeat yourself without even acknowledging things people say and I don't get it.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105392]I'd argue that the stability is irrelevant? Also, the stability of a culture is based on its appeal. If a culture has lost its appeal is it really worth saving? Not that that matters because as pointed out a ridiculous number of times already: those pieces of cultural identity are still being specifically preserved by the EU regardless of how they appeal to folks. The 'appeal' of having two or more genders is irrelevant to the discussion of genders as well - that's more a discussion about personal freedoms and identity. A culture's appeal doesn't inherently deserve protection - it must be earned. Whether or not the EU decides to prop up a culture has no impact on whether it appeals to people -- that's the base stability you ought be concerned about if you're concerned at all.[/QUOTE] It was about the stablility of EU, which would increase with a more unified culture or whatever it was, i don't remember now. If by appeal must be earned, do you mean it's survival of the fittest culture or what? You can be somewhat selective in regards to what cultures to preserve in regards to acceptable principles.

[quote]If by appeal must be earned, do you mean it's survival of the fittest culture or what? [/quote] I mean that [I]people[/I] decide whether or not a culture is worth caring about or discarding in favor of another one. It doesn't matter if the EU paid for the upkeep of every single insignificant historical or cultural site across the whole of the EU 'til the end of time if everybody up and decides German culture is the bomb. It's survival of the most appealing - and what appeals is not something that can be easily controlled by the EU. I believe you're [I]greatly[/I] overestimating the impact small cultural shifts over time are going to have with the EU. If Europe and Africa's cultures could (somewhat) survive the Holy Roman Empire (and Britain, if we're being upfront about things), they can [I]well[/I] survive some small shifts in cultural temperments from the EU.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52105394]But no ones arguing for a monoculture so what are you even saying Like I'll be honest, you're frustrating as hell because you have glazed over entire posts to repeat yourself without even acknowledging things people say and I don't get it.[/QUOTE] Yes and people ignored the questions I asked that weren't repetitive and we went around in circles. What do you want me to acknowledge? People went on about culture is always changing and can't be stopped. I already knew that before entering this thread, sorry, if that wasn't clear. Claiming it over and over again wasn't a counter-argument to what culture preservation I advocate, doctors won't stop saving lives because people die anyway.

[quote]doctors won't stop saving lives because people die anyway.[/quote] Actually, that's false. There are many points (and many good reasons for doing so) where a Doctor might give up and let someone die just as there are many reasons a person may discard their born culture for another culture they find more appealing.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105438]I mean that [I]people[/I] decide whether or not a culture is worth caring about or discarding in favor of another one. It doesn't matter if the EU paid for the upkeep of every single insignificant historical or cultural site across the whole of the EU 'til the end of time if everybody up and decides German culture is the bomb. It's survival of the most appealing - and what appeals is not something that can be easily controlled by the EU. I believe you're [I]greatly[/I] overestimating the impact small cultural shifts over time are going to have with the EU. If Europe and Africa's cultures could (somewhat) survive the Holy Roman Empire (and Britain, if we're being upfront about things), they can [I]well[/I] survive some small shifts in cultural temperments from the EU.[/QUOTE] Yeah, i agreed somewhere in the beginning of this thread that total or even a large destruction of cultures is not likely. Them moving closer together, starting to share similar features and losing other parts is what I expect though. [QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105461]Actually, that's false. There are many points (and many good reasons for doing so) where a Doctor might give up and let someone die just as there are many reasons a person may discard their born culture for another culture they find more appealing.[/QUOTE] Because they are beyond rescue, that's why the doctor is there in the first place, to avoid that. Same with culture preservation, making sure it doesn't go so far that it ends up beyond rescue.

Right. OK. So then: How does the EU factor in at all into that is my point. People decide whether cultures live or die - how is managing the appeal and heterogeny of cultures in any way the burden of the EU when it wasn't theirs to begin with? Whether or not sites are preserved - people must first [I]want[/I] to visit those sites. Whether or not cultural mores and values are preserved is up to [I]whether people feel those mores and values appeal to them[/I]. It feels like you dropped in here to ramble in about how the homogenization of cultures is going to be the death of the world -- but that has nothing to do with the EU and whether or not its paying for sites to begin with (which it already is -- which means it's already doing everything it should and can to prevent homogenization of culture by 'keeping the door open' even if nobody's willing to walk through it) or is crusading for the homogenization of all culture -- which it isn't. [quote]Same with culture preservation, making sure it doesn't go so far that it ends up beyond rescue.[/quote] And I'm telling you that you're swinging a sword at a windmill and calling it an ogre. That is merely a fantasy because the ultimate fate of a culture doesn't rest in any one person's hands, it rests in the hands of the greater will of the people. Cultures with appeal survive; cultures without don't - no matter how much you may want to preserve them they [I]will[/I] ultimately perish from the world. A culture can't persist outside of a 'body' of people who adhere to it and the context that gave birth to it; you can't just create a 'library of culture', stick it up on a shelf, and expect it to continue to live just as it was when it was alive - or even be returned to life the way it was before. The only real way to preserve a culture is to prevent it from communicating with any other culture.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105501]Right. OK. So then: How does the EU factor in at all into that is my point. People decide whether cultures live or die - how is managing the appeal and heterogeny of cultures in any way the burden of the EU when it wasn't theirs to begin with? Whether or not sites are preserved - people must first [I]want[/I] to visit those sites. Whether or not cultural mores and values are preserved is up to [I]whether people feel those mores and values appeal to them[/I]. It feels like you dropped in here to ramble in about how the homogenization of cultures is going to be the death of the world -- but that has nothing to do with the EU and whether or not its paying for sites to begin with (which it already is -- which means it's already doing everything it should and can to prevent homogenization of culture by 'keeping the door open' even if nobody's willing to walk through it) or is crusading for the homogenization of all culture -- which it isn't.[/QUOTE] Because some argued that cultural identities can be a collateral victim in making the EU better. I don't think the EU should act in a way that does that. So it wasn't me that gave it the burden to aid culture, rather those who use it to oppose it in order to "strengthen" the EU. I very much want the EU to work in favour of preserving culture though. [QUOTE]And I'm telling you that you're swinging a sword at a windmill and calling it an ogre. That is merely a fantasy because the ultimate fate of a culture doesn't rest in any one person's hands, it rests in the hands of the greater will of the people. Cultures with appeal survive; cultures without don't - no matter how much you may want to preserve them they [I]will[/I] ultimately perish from the world. A culture can't persist outside of a 'body' of people who adhere to it and the context that gave birth to it; you can't just create a 'library of culture', stick it up on a shelf, and expect it to continue to live just as it was when it was alive - or even be returned to life the way it was before. The only real way to preserve a culture is to prevent it from communicating with any other culture.[/QUOTE] So why should doctors save lives? That everything will end and might be pointless, isn't a good argument to stop doing productive things. You don't condemn (or do you) people to die when, because they will eventually die anyway. So why should culture be treated differently? Why should people making that their life objective be ridiculed, just because in the end it will gone anyway?

Because doctors don't determine or control whether [I]death exists[/I]. That's not their role in the world - they didn't bring death into it and they won't determine whether things [I]can die[/I]. A doctor may want to save a life. A doctor can't save you from a nuclear bomb exploding in your face. There are limits to what a doctor can do - there are limits to what the EU can do; and superceding those limits is probably bad for all the cultures involved anyway. You're saying, basically, that the EU has a responsibility to control what ideas people share - that's ultimately what erodes cultures and shouldn't be the EU's business to begin with.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105608]Because doctors don't determine or control whether [I]death exists[/I].[/QUOTE] You can control whether culture exist, so why lower yourself to the level of defeat that is the inevitability of death?

Whosoever [B]individually[/B] controls whether cultures exist or not is an existence that is tantamount to a god. Doctors are not [B]Gods[/B]; they can not save you from being torn apart by a nuclear explosion. That is a task that is beyond them - much as 'preventing homogenization of cultures' is beyond the grasp of the EU. You're speaking nonsense.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105624]Whosoever [B]individually[/B] controls whether cultures exist or not is an existence that is tantamount to a god. Doctors are not [B]Gods[/B]; they can not save you from being torn apart by a nuclear explosion. You're speaking nonsense.[/QUOTE] When did I say individually? It will probably always be a group effort. You just want to give up because it's hard, lazy or don't care. Well, don't get in the way of people doing productive work.

[quote][B]When did I say individually?[/B][/quote] [quote]You can control whether culture exist[/quote] Even the most 'Royal You' doesn't cover the scope of persons necessary to preserve or kill a culture here. [quote]You just want to give up because it's hard, lazy or don't care.[/quote] "Why can't you pull that mountain up with your bare hands? You lazy donut!! Well, fine, just stand back and watch me and my friends lift it up with our bare hands."

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105638]Even the most 'Royal You' doesn't cover the scope of persons necessary to preserve or kill a culture here.[/QUOTE] Seriously, are you going to make everything meaningless, because there isn't a 100% chance of success.

can you explain who exactly is taking cultures away from people? who is this devious fellow that steals potatoes from the hands of the irish?

[QUOTE=Mining Bill;52105664]can you explain who exactly is taking cultures away from people? who is this devious fellow that steals potatoes from the hands of the irish?[/QUOTE] Theresa May, probably. I don't know, hopefully nobody. This was a preemptive discussion from my part.