Kurzgesagt: Is the European Union Worth It Or Should We End It? - General

I didn't say it was meaningless. I said that your objections are meaningless. You may as well tell people 'Stop! Don't talk to each other; don't you see you're only destroying your cultures!" It's not [I]up to you[/I] whether a culture is preserved or not. The most you can do is try and save what you can from a culture that's rapidly becoming another. That's called 'cultural history' and people have been keeping that on their own for thousands of years. Expecting that you can simply take up where they left off demonstrates a flawed understanding of what a culture is. When the culture stops caring about its own cultural history, there's little you can do to save the whole of it. Since we're talking about doctors here: when do you stop trying to save every bit of a person? Say the body dies - do you try to save the brain? If that's impossible, do you try to save the heart? The arm? The pinkie toe? It's a phyrric effort. You can preserve the memory of a culture to an extent but you can't preserve a [I]culture[/I] unless you remove the ability for it to exchange its ideas with other cultures. Further, stating 'the pinkie toe' of the host body represents the person that it belonged to would be simply delusional. The same goes for stating a few artifacts can explain the whole context of a society; there are many things which are not objects or locations but are instead mindsets and contextual upbringings that can't be preserved when the original culture dies off or merges into another.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105682]I didn't say it was meaningless. I said that your objections are meaningless. You may as well tell people 'Stop! Don't talk to each other; don't you see you're only destroying your cultures!" It's not [I]up to you[/I] whether a culture is preserved or not. The most you can do is try and save what you can from a culture that's rapidly becoming another. That's called 'cultural history' and people have been keeping that on their own for thousands of years. Expecting that you can simply take up where they left off demonstrates a flawed understanding of what a culture is. When the culture stops caring about its own cultural history, there's little you can do to save the whole of it. Since we're talking about doctors here: when do you stop trying to save every bit of a person? Say the body dies - do you try to save the brain? If that's impossible, do you try to save the heart? The arm? The pinkie toe? It's a phyrric effort. You can preserve the memory of a culture to an extent but you can't preserve a [I]culture[/I] unless you remove the ability for it to exchange its ideas with other cultures.[/QUOTE] So because i can't make a culture immortal, i can't work to prolong its life?

I suppose that depends on what you're willing to call 'life'. Personally, I don't think you keeping that pinkie toe in a jar constitutes 'keeping the owner of that pinkie toe alive' (and I'd really disagree with you saying 'this pinkie toe represents the life of the person it once was!') but you're free to disagree I guess.

[QUOTE=RB33;52104721]It might destroy customs and traditions that kept cultures unique for centuries, if not cared for. Why is it okay to get rid of living history but material things tend to cared for? Both are part of history and culture.[/QUOTE] EU actively cares for customs and tradition via culture preservation programs running as we speak. Preserving culture is good and all, but cultures evolving, mixing and generally living isn't a bad thing. Our ways of living are generally better from 100 years ago because our cultures have evolved. The point of preservation however is to not forget how things used to be.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105706]I suppose that depends on what you're willing to call 'life'. Personally, I don't think you keeping that pinkie toe in a jar constitutes 'keeping the owner of that pinkie toe alive' (and I'd really disagree with you saying 'this pinkie toe represents the life of the person it once was!') but you're free to disagree I guess.[/QUOTE] The speakers of the Banat Bulgarian, Crimean Tatar, Csángó dialect, Gagauz, Judezmo, Nogay, Romani, Rusyn, Torlakian dialect, Transylvanian Saxon and Yiddish are probably grateful for the efforts to preserve their languages and separate culture. And those are just the languages in Romania. You just think they might as well be dead, since they are not fit enough for you. I strongly disagree, diversity is strength.

[quote]You just think they might as well be dead, since they are not fit enough for you. I strongly disagree, diversity is strength.[/quote] You're deluded. You can't preserve an entire culture by just preserving its language. I think original members of those cultures would actually be a little insulted that you think their cultures were limited to just that much. Do you preserve me if you 'keep living in my memory by saying yar occassionally'? You can't preserve a whole culture because you can't preserve its context or its people. You can only preserve the memory of it - the artifacts. But artifacts do not a culture make. For the record, I've 'died' some 9 or so times in my 30 years so far. Trying to keep 'the 9 year old me' alive is a farcical effort. Keep my old sketchbook - some videos of me rambling about stuff back then - you won't preserve "me".

[QUOTE=Talishmar;52105725]EU actively cares for customs and tradition via culture preservation programs running as we speak. Preserving culture is good and all, but cultures evolving, mixing and generally living isn't a bad thing. Our ways of living are generally better from 100 years ago because our cultures have evolved. The point of preservation however is to not forget how things used to be.[/QUOTE] Still doesn't make it a good thing either. Fun traditions which unite people in the same ways as their ancestors, unique languages will be lost and make our combined languages less diverse, stories will be forgotten, old music, art and craftsmanship as well. It's just sad and just saying "well, we got progress instead" doesn't replace what we lost. [editline]15th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105743]You're deluded. You can't preserve an entire culture by just preserving its language. I think original members of those cultures would actually be a little insulted that you think their cultures were limited to just that much. Do you preserve me if you 'keep living in my memory by saying yar occassionally'? You can't preserve a whole culture because you can't preserve its context or its people. You can only preserve the memory of it - the artifacts. But artifacts do not a culture make. For the record, I've 'died' some 9 or so times in my 30 years so far. Trying to keep 'the 9 year old me' alive is a farcical effort. Keep my old sketchbook - some videos of me rambling about stuff back then - you won't preserve "me".[/QUOTE] You're just impossible and arguing for the sake of wanting things to be impossible. "Don't even try that, why make your own life choices and priorites when it's impossible!" Stop caring about what other people do with their life, that's their choice. Feel like it's a waste or whatever, that doesn't change what they want to do.

What are you even rambling about? I'm telling you that you can't hold the whole world in your hands no matter [I]how[/I] hard you'd like to and you're yelling 'Well, maybe I can! Who are you to tell other people what they can and can't hold?!' And you're even basically saying 'who cares! I'm saving something, that means I'm saving a culture!' I'm not saying it isn't noble to try and preserve a culture. I'm saying you'll only keep a small part of it at best - even in the best case scenario. And a culture simply [B]can't[/B] be reduced to its artifacts - it can only truly live when it is practiced and retains its context. Over time, that means things will homogenize so long as people want to homogenize because things [I]will[/I] be lost. Just because you want the world to change doesn't mean the world will change for you. You want a culture to survive? Convince that culture to like their own culture more than they like others (and ensure the 'context' of that culture never changes -- so their ecosystem, their relationships with their neighbors, their economy, their religions, etc.). That's it. That's literally all you can do if you want to save an entire culture. Edit: And, just to reiterate, the EU [I]still[/I] has nothing to do with that and [I]shouldn't[/I] have anything to do with that.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105793]What are you even rambling about? I'm telling you that you can't hold the whole world in your hands no matter [I]how[/I] hard you'd like to and you're yelling 'Well, maybe I can! Who are you to tell other people what they can and can't hold?!' And you're even basically saying 'who cares! I'm saving something, that means I'm saving a culture!' I'm not saying it isn't noble to try and preserve a culture. I'm saying you'll only keep a small part of it at best - even in the best case scenario. Over time, that means things will homogenize so long as people want to homogenize. Just because you want the world to change doesn't mean the world will change for you. You want a culture to survive? Convince that culture to like their own culture more than they like others. That's it. That's literally all you can do if you want to save an entire culture.[/QUOTE] You seem to care very much that it's hard to preserve cultures. Anyone like you standing on the sidelines going "it's impossible, give up" is just very strange. Why can you only keep a small part? You might even spark a new era of that culture as have happened somewhat at times in history. I don't know where you got this that people wouldn't even want their own culture, many cultures want to be closer to their past. [QUOTE]Edit: And, just to reiterate, the EU [I]still[/I] has nothing to do with that and [I]shouldn't[/I] have anything to do with that.[/QUOTE] Why though? Shouldn't the EU serve the people of the union, including minorites?

this thread is a master class in not fucking reading

[quote]Why can you only keep a small part?[/quote] Allow me to tickle your brain with this short exercise and illuminate how you can only keep a small part. Your goal is to retain the [I]entire living context[/I] of my existence when I was 12 years old back in 1998. How do you accomplish this? Please, feel free to assume a gratuitous amount of funding and public/governmental support. Note: If you do not retain the entire living context, it would be dumb to claim what you have retained is 'me'. This is what it means to retain an entire culture and, as I'm sure I'll very shortly remind you, this is only attempting to preserve [I]one person[/I]. Preserving a living culture is orders of magnitude harder.

[QUOTE=RB33;52105836]You seem to care very much that it's hard to preserve cultures. Anyone like you standing on the sidelines going "it's impossible, give up" is just very strange. Why can you only keep a small part? You might even spark a new era of that culture as have happened somewhat at times in history. I don't know where you got this that people wouldn't even want their own culture, many cultures want to be closer to their past.[/QUOTE] A culture is made up of the people that exist within it, it's passed down, and through that passing down is often diluted as the younger generation re-decides what is important to them. How you plan to stop this is beyond me, but you keep just saying "you guys are just quitters". No. Not at all. One fucking person has said you should stop, but everyone else has not despite the [B]fact[/B] you shove that into their mouths with literally every fucking post. You are being dishonest in my honest opinion. If people in your culture decide to just stop caring about something, that is their decision. Earlier you said you wouldn't be a cultural fascist but it honestly seems like nothing less can satisfy you. Those people are a group, you're part of that group, collectively you'll determine what you keep and don't as time goes on. Sure, preserve what you can, but when the people practicing a custom no longer choose to practice it, it honestly seems like you want to force them to continue. In your words, it's very strange.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105855]Allow me to tickle your brain with this short exercise and illuminate how you can only keep a small part. Your goal is to retain the [I]entire living context[/I] of my existence when I was 12 years old back in 1998. How do you accomplish this? Please, feel free to assume a gratuitous amount of funding and public/governmental support. Note: If you do not retain the entire living context, it would be dumb to claim what you have retained is 'me'. This is what it means to retain an entire culture.[/QUOTE] Have I claimed that it is possible to retain an entire culture or that I wish to do so? I want there to be a good job as there possibly can be, i don't aim to achieve actual impossible stuff but you seem to be more pessimistic than me and with a wider definition of impossible.

[QUOTE=RB33;52105880]Have I claimed that it is possible to retain an entire culture or that I wish to do so? I want there to be a good job as there possibly can be, i don't aim to achieve actual impossible stuff but you seem to be more pessimistic than me.[/QUOTE] Good god dude, people are just trying to spell out the reality of the situation with your entirely idealistic view of how things should be. Perserve what you want, but as you've seemed to imply all thread even after conceeding it, the EU is not out to destroy cultures. The people inside those cultures are the only ones who choose whether it lives or dies and what parts do and don't continue on. You're not going to be the arbiter of that and you were even hypocritically dismissive of a subset of a language earlier in this thread, so I can't really understand your view at all and you have failed to explain it by just reiterating the same shit. I would like to understand, honestly I would. What do you [B]actually[/B] want to happen? What does the preservation of cultures mean to you? What does it mean when they change to you? I don't even know if you've got these concepts worked out for yourself at this point in the conversation.

[quote]Have I claimed that it is possible to retain an entire culture[/quote] Yes. [quote]or that I wish to do so?[/quote] Very much so. [quote]i don't aim to achieve actual impossible stuff[/quote] Except: You do. Here's the brass tacks. Save all the language you want. Save all the artifacts you can. You will [I]not[/I] save the culture. Whether a culture lives or dies has nothing to do with those languages or artifacts - they are [I]byproducts[/I] of the original culture they came from and can't represent its whole. A culture is made up of ideas, people, and context -- [I]none[/I] of which can be 'saved' or 'archived' in anywhere near close to an 'unbiased' fashion - which means even the things you save will be a telephone game over the original culture. If you can not preserve a culture's context, you are not 'saving that culture'. All you are doing is remembering what is [B]noteworthy [/B] about that culture - which is what everyone is [B]already doing[/B]. You're [I]trying to save a world that doesn't need and perhaps even [U]doesn't want[/U] saving.[/I]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52105862]A culture is made up of the people that exist within it, it's passed down, and through that passing down is often diluted as the younger generation re-decides what is important to them. How you plan to stop this is beyond me, but you keep just saying "you guys are just quitters". No. Not at all. One fucking person has said you should stop, but everyone else has not despite the [B]fact[/B] you shove that into their mouths with literally every fucking post. You are being dishonest in my honest opinion. If people in your culture decide to just stop caring about something, that is their decision. Earlier you said you wouldn't be a cultural fascist but it honestly seems like nothing less can satisfy you. Those people are a group, you're part of that group, collectively you'll determine what you keep and don't as time goes on. Sure, preserve what you can, but when the people practicing a custom no longer choose to practice it, it honestly seems like you want to force them to continue. In your words, it's very strange.[/QUOTE] If they might be unaware of these traditions, as many young people are, are we not allowed to make them aware of them, try to incentivize it and let them try them before giving up? Much is forgotten not by choice, but rather lack of it. Because they seldom get the chance to try it. Modern society, technology and standardization have taken a toll on traditons and local culture. (I have probably said that 10 times already, if some doesn't understand me at this point, they probably won't.) [QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105899]Yes. Very much so. Except: You do. Here's the brass tacks. Save all the language you want. Save all the artifacts you can. You will [I]not[/I] save the culture. Whether a culture lives or dies has nothing to do with those languages or artifacts - they are [I]byproducts[/I] of the original culture they came from and can't represent its whole. A culture is made up of ideas, people, and context -- [I]none[/I] of which can be 'saved' or 'archived' in anywhere near close to an 'unbiased' fashion - which means even the things you save will be a telephone game over the original culture. If you can not preserve a culture's context, you are not 'saving that culture'. All you are doing is remembering what is [B]noteworthy [/B] about that culture - which is what everyone is [B]already doing[/B]. You're [I]trying to save a world that doesn't need and perhaps even [U]doesn't want[/U] saving.[/I][/QUOTE] So people shouldn't do it because you find it to be unworthy? People won't even remember what's noteworthy if people aren't trying to preserve what they can.

[quote] make them aware of them[/quote] You should probably take another look at what you wrote just there. I know [I]of[/I] Mormons. That doesn't mean I want to be [I]forced to learn about Mormons[/I]. You're basically telling people they're not [I]allowed[/I] to [B]not [/B] care about their own culture - that your desire that their culture lives on supercedes their desire to discard it. Forcing an old culture down a new culture's throat will only cause it to distance and hate the older culture even if it didn't do so before. In short: You're not just trying to lead a horse to water and get it to drink, you're strapping it down on a table and yelling 'DRINK YOU MOTHERF#@ER' as you shovel water down its throat - all in the name of preserving a dead 'horse culture'. It is as comedic an image as it is horrifying (and tone-deaf). [quote]So people shouldn't do it because you find it to be unworthy?[/quote] J'accuse! It is [I]you[/I] who is telling people they shouldn't discard their cultures because they find them to be unworthy or unfitting.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105916]You should probably take another look at what you wrote just there. I know [I]of[/I] Mormons. That doesn't mean I want to be [I]forced to learn about Mormons[/I]. You're basically telling people they're not [I]allowed[/I] to [B]not [/B] care about their own culture - that your desire that their culture lives on supercedes their desire to discard it. Forcing an old culture down a new culture's throat will only cause it to distance and hate the older culture even if it didn't do so before. In short: You're not just trying to lead a horse to water and get it to drink, you're strapping it down on a table and yelling 'DRINK YOU MOTHERF#@ER' as you shovel water down its throat - all in the name of preserving a dead 'horse culture'. It is as comedic an image as it is horrifying (and tone-deaf).[/QUOTE] You're forced to learn math and languages in school. How oppressive that is, why are you acting like it's something horrible to learn? You're assuming that people will hate it without anything to back that up. [QUOTE]J'accuse! It is [I]you[/I] who is telling people they shouldn't discard their cultures because they find them to be unworthy or unfitting.[/QUOTE] Society pushes them in one direction, making them adapt to a new world with little choice. You act like everyone got a choice, that is very generalizing of you.

[quote]You're forced to learn math and languages in school[/quote] Neither of which have anything to do with cultures and, without a basic grasp of either, living in society in general anywhere in the world becomes near impossible. What is your point here, even? Are you saying that the tradition of taking my shoes off on a mat in front of a door is as essential to my waking life as is [I]basic mathematics[/I]? As [B][I]English[/I][/B]? How far are you willing to stretch that? Why are you acting like people who don't care about their own culture secretly want to learn about it? You're assuming people will like it when they are already abandoning their own culture in favor of others - and have been doing so for millenia because people talk and talking is how ideas are exchanged and new ideas adopted/trialed. You should probably consider that the people in these cultures [I]may not care as much about preserving their culture as you do[/I].

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52105894]Good god dude, people are just trying to spell out the reality of the situation with your entirely idealistic view of how things should be. Perserve what you want, but as you've seemed to imply all thread even after conceeding it, the EU is not out to destroy cultures. The people inside those cultures are the only ones who choose whether it lives or dies and what parts do and don't continue on. You're not going to be the arbiter of that and you were even hypocritically dismissive of a subset of a language earlier in this thread, so I can't really understand your view at all and you have failed to explain it by just reiterating the same shit. I would like to understand, honestly I would. What do you [B]actually[/B] want to happen? What does the preservation of cultures mean to you? What does it mean when they change to you? I don't even know if you've got these concepts worked out for yourself at this point in the conversation.[/QUOTE] Outside forces influence the choices of people of a culture though. I have mentioned incentives, teaching traditions and culture in school, make it so people remember it or try to keep it alive. Change doesn't have to be bad, what's more important is keeping helpful traditions alive. And not to give up on them, often because of nothing else than not being aware of them or modernity pushes people away from the old stuff. People should appreciate what got us here and take care of the legacy. I guess this is what happens when your family are craftsmen or are active in the preservation of traditions.

[quote] Change doesn't have to be bad, what's more important is keeping helpful traditions alive. [/quote] Ah, and here it is - the needle I shall break your argument's back on. What you're saying here is: A culture is what [I]I[/I] find is important/relevant about it. But it doesn't work that way because a culture isn't one part, or many parts, or even [I]most[/I] parts that you can draw from it - it's the [I]collective whole[/I]. Traditions are not a culture. A people, their living context, and their relationships with other cultures and neighbors - that's the real culture. You've been arguing this whole time about saving cultures. I'm glad you've settled that it's impossible and that what you want is to preserve traditions and important historical relics. Which, by the way, [B]people have been doing for all of human history, the EU is monetarily backing, and which those cultures themselves are doing on their own.[/B] Edit: So again, I'll state - I don't much see the point of your point.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105964]Neither of which have anything to do with cultures and, without a basic grasp of either, living in society in general anywhere in the world becomes near impossible. What is your point here, even? Are you saying that the tradition of taking my shoes off on a mat in front of a door is as essential to my waking life as is [I]basic mathematics[/I]? As [B][I]English[/I][/B]? How far are you willing to stretch that? Why are you acting like people who don't care about their own culture secretly want to learn about it? You're assuming people will like it when they are already abandoning their own culture in favor of others - and have been doing so for millenia because people talk and talking is how ideas are exchanged and new ideas adopted/trialed. You should probably consider that the people in these cultures [I]may not care as much about preserving their culture as you do[/I].[/QUOTE] That you can survive being teached culture without going mad? [QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52106019]Ah, and here it is - the needle I shall break your back on. What you're saying here is: A culture is what [I]I[/I] find is important about it. But it doesn't work that way. Traditions are not a culture. A people, their living context, and their relationships with other cultures and neighbors - that's the real culture. You've been arguing this whole time about saving cultures. I'm glad you've settled that it's impossible and that what you want is to preserve traditions and important historical relics. Which, by the way, [B]people have been doing for all of human history, the EU is monetarily backing, and which those cultures themselves are doing on their own.[/B][/QUOTE] Holy shit, how much can you care about it being this incredibly specific and being right. Are you just sitting in front of your keyboard just waiting to catch me on some technicality to prove yourself right? This discussion is over, you're not discussing in good faith and just want to be correct. At least, I have made some concessions in this thread.

It's not incredibly specific. You're saying the sky is made of donuts; that you could save the [I]concept[/I] of a thing. That's not an incredibly specific fact - that's a basic fact that you're now waving your hands over and saying 'that's not what I meant at all'. I think it's you who are arguing in bad faith now by refusing to admit to being wrong on that - and instead have tried to slyly move the goalposts of your own debate in order to avoid that.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52106049]It's not incredibly specific. You're saying the sky is made of donuts; that you could save the [I]concept[/I] of a thing. That's not an incredibly specific fact - that's a basic fact that you're now waving your hands over and saying 'that's not what I meant at all'. I think it's you who refuses to admit to being wrong - and instead have tried to slyly move the goalposts of your own debate in order to avoid that.[/QUOTE] No, your goalposts have been different than from what I have tried to argue. I say one thing, then you come up with these preconditions that you say must be true, then you declare yourself right after claiming it's impossible, somehow people always have a choice in culture and are terrified of learning culture in school without really explaining any of it, other than that's just how it is.

No Firgof Umbra has been arguing consistently.

I enjoy you still implying things like that 'I claim it's impossible to save the whole context of a culture' as if there could be doubt in that because it is actually impossible, as I've demonstrated and you've failed to rebuff. And for good reason: It's impossible. Where did I say people were terrified of learning about their old cultures? I said they were disinterested -- that other cultures have more relevant appeal because they more fit the context those people find themselves in now. (Remember? 'Survival of the most appealing'?) Also that it's not about opportunity - there's plenty of opportunity. People simply are either too busy or don't care - and shoving it down their throats won't fix that. Your goalposts have forever been 'I want to prevent cultural homogenization!'. Well, RB33, about that: To prevent homogenization and 'save' cultures you have two options: Convince them to like their own culture more (somehow, which is especially hard if that culture doesn't work well with their present societal context anymore) or 'save the culture' - which is a very short-handed way of saying 'close all the borders, forbid contact with the outside, and somehow perfectly preserve all the living conditions, religions, economy, relationships, birth/dirth rates, and so forth that the culture sprang into existence from indefinitely until people adopt it again - which may be never but gosh darn it we'll try'.

You assume these things to be true without any hesitation and that it has to be the case, why? Explain your reasoning. [QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105964]Why are you acting like people who don't care about their own culture secretly want to learn about it? You're assuming people will like it when they are already abandoning their own culture in favor of others - and have been doing so for millenia because people talk and talking is how ideas are exchanged and new ideas adopted/trialed. You should probably consider that the people in these cultures [I]may not care as much about preserving their culture as you do[/I].[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52105916]You're basically telling people they're not [I]allowed[/I] to [B]not [/B] care about their own culture - that your desire that their culture lives on supercedes their desire to discard it. Forcing an old culture down a new culture's throat will only cause it to distance and hate the older culture even if it didn't do so before.[/QUOTE]

I know lots about culture here. I don't want to practice it. You must think me a monster or some impossible creature. You're literally saying "What you say can't be true because what I say is true!" which is so ridiculous for you to call someone else dishonest over.

Sure, I'll walk you through it. Here's your first hurdle to see if you're even paying attention: You're arguing about homogenization of cultures. That means homogenization is happening right now, right? What causes homogenization? What keeps culture heterogenous? I've already (and many many other people as well) said it a few times but I'd like to see if you've been paying attention. Answer me that and gain the next piece of the puzzle you can't seem to solve! If you're unwilling or unable to answer it, you either don't care or you just fundamentally don't know what the word 'culture' means. (In either case that would mean you're not worth the time it'd take to respond to anymore)

Should americans practice their cultural heritages of 50 years ago, of 100 years ago? What age do you want to be preserved? All of them? Most of them? You seem to have no understanding of what you ask.