The Rise and Fall of Command & Conquer - General

[QUOTE=Orkel;52139725]Me and my father both played shit out of the original C&C on the first computer we ever bought. Same with Red Alert, I remember when he came back from work, hopped out of his car with Red Alert in his hand. I still have the disks and packaging. Yeah I figured this out as a kid. Touching the enemy's harvesters would make the AI shit every unit they had on killing the attacker.[/QUOTE] I remember creeping to the enemy base with sandbags snake and building them in place of IonCannonned enemy's buildings so he couldn't rebuild them :v:

[QUOTE=Ta16;52143331]I am a huge fan of Command and Conquer and still play from time to time. We should get together and play a big Comp stomp vs AI sometime. Those interested in playing here's a couple of methods/alternatives: [URL="http://www.openra.net"]OpenRA[/URL] (TD, Dune200, RA1) Free, Open source CNC client - Supports most modern Operating systems (Win/Mac/various linux distros) - Slightly modified graphics and gameplay mechanics, purists need not apply -eventually support for TS/RA2 -install and play, no original game required [/QUOTE] ...And [URL="https://github.com/OpenRA/ra2"]here[/URL] is that unofficial RA2 mod I mentioned previously (there's also a much less actively developed [URL="https://github.com/OpenRA/d2"]Dune 2 mod[/URL], apparently). You won't be able to run this at all if you don't already have a copy of the game (which I don't, so I don't know how complete it is).

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;52143362]I remember creeping to the enemy base with sandbags snake and building them in place of IonCannonned enemy's buildings so he couldn't rebuild them :v:[/QUOTE] I loved having the ability power plant crawl across the map to slap pillboxes or flame towers down at the enemies front door when I played the original Red Alert when I was younger. Good times.

[QUOTE=V12US;52140901]Real time strategy died when the internet basically turned it into real time Korean simulator. Yes, it has strategy, but the bulk of the game is arcadish twitch skills. It's like buying a Military Tactical Realism Sim, and then when you play it it turns out it's actually Overwatch. There's nothing bad about that, but RTS has just gotten so niche that there just isn't a market for it anymore. The skill floor for these games is so utterly ridonkulously high that the average person just can't get any enjoyment out of it. I still think it's amazing to watch people play those games, though.[/QUOTE] except thats how its always been, lol cnc in general (red alert 2, generals, even the original cnc+tiberium sun) all focused around 200-300 apm rushing where you forced out tanks as quickly as possible (within 3-5 minutes) and rushed the enemy. This was the ONLY tactic for multiplayer. Every single pro game ever since pro games started for them, focused around this tactic. Same things even apply to games like age of empires. So no, its always been like this, nothing has actually changed. It's more that rts has always been a niche genre, and the internet community has a whole has changed into one that wants faster and faster games, with more this, and more that, and rts can't really provide for the most part.

[QUOTE=StrykerE;52137714]Someone who claimed that they were a game designer/producer for Generals 2/F2P Command and Conquer posted this on reddit recently: [URL]https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/65pd76/if_you_could_bring_back_any_game_from_your/dgd1geg/[/URL] Dunno how much truth there is to it, but it sounds about right It looked like this before cancellation: [video=youtube;80_x6bmzluc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80_x6bmzluc[/video][/QUOTE] played the alpha can confirm it was the weirdest C&C i have ever played and the choices they did were f2p insanity. no idea if a nda really exists for it anymore since its a fucking dead game so to play it safe im just gonna hold back on it. still have my email for it tho [t]http://i.imgur.com/9hTsR0q.png[/t]

[QUOTE=GHOST!!!!;52141010]If you play online. I never played online because I couldn't be fucked playing against people who were infinitely better than I was, it was just fucking annoying really, it's like the way I look at StarCraft II is the same, singleplayer, awesome, multiplayer, get fucked. Fucking EA and trying to push for Esports shit, arseholes.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=V12US;52140901]Real time strategy died when the internet basically turned it into real time Korean simulator. Yes, it has strategy, but the bulk of the game is arcadish twitch skills. It's like buying a Military Tactical Realism Sim, and then when you play it it turns out it's actually Overwatch. There's nothing bad about that, but RTS has just gotten so niche that there just isn't a market for it anymore. The skill floor for these games is so utterly ridonkulously high that the average person just can't get any enjoyment out of it. I still think it's amazing to watch people play those games, though.[/QUOTE] yeah fuck people who want to play a challenging game that rewards being good, right? This is the exact reason why CnC4 exists, lol. Because EA thought RTS vets would crush newbies and it would be too hard. But even then ranking systems are the norm now so with the exclusion of smurfs, you'd be playing people of similar skill level anyway. [editline]24th April 2017[/editline] and for the record micro will always be a thing in RTS, if you do not like micro then don't play RTS. It's like complaining that you have to click heads on a FPS.

and thats one of the real issues with why rts is so niche, because there are basically two communities to every game, and that isn't really the case with any other genre. The casuals who want to turtle up or just play around offline, and the competitive types that go nuts online. And it's hard to strike a balance where you can get both on your side, especially for playing online. But a lot of people think that starcraft is some big boogeyman that started the whole micro and apm trend, when it really isn't at all, its just the most popular because of it. These things stretch back to when rts basically first started being popular.

What made me love every part of C&C games up to YR is the feel of being a true commander. Your job is to decide the order to build stuff, plan your moves to enemy base and then sit back and watch your army fuck shit up. While Starcraft was all about playing as a dedicated babysitter for every unit, telling them not only what to do but also where to step or which mineral to mine in case of scv/drone.

[QUOTE=Naught;52143709]and thats one of the real issues with why rts is so niche, because there are basically two communities to every game, and that isn't really the case with any other genre. The casuals who want to turtle up or just play around offline, and the competitive types that go nuts online. And it's hard to strike a balance where you can get both on your side, especially for playing online. But a lot of people think that starcraft is some big boogeyman that started the whole micro and apm trend, when it really isn't at all, its just the most popular because of it. These things stretch back to when rts basically first started being popular.[/QUOTE] You can boil just about most genre's player communities into casual and try hard. That's why online FPSes have specific modes for ranked and casual play (TF2, CSGO, Siege etc), just like MOBAs so this is hardly an issue for RTSes specifically and thats fine.

[QUOTE=Ta16;52143814]You can boil just about most genre's player communities into casual and try hard. That's why online FPSes have specific modes for ranked and casual play (TF2, CSGO, Siege etc), just like MOBAs so this is hardly an issue for RTSes specifically and thats fine.[/QUOTE] there isnt nearly as big of a gap between the casual and competitive community in fps and other genres, compared to rts.

[QUOTE=ashxu;52143685]yeah fuck people who want to play a challenging game that rewards being good, right? This is the exact reason why CnC4 exists, lol. Because EA thought RTS vets would crush newbies and it would be too hard. But even then ranking systems are the norm now so with the exclusion of smurfs, you'd be playing people of similar skill level anyway. [editline]24th April 2017[/editline] and for the record micro will always be a thing in RTS, if you do not like micro then don't play RTS. It's like complaining that you have to click heads on a FPS.[/QUOTE] I think people are also overhyping micro when it comes to being decent. In starcraft 2 for example you can make it to platinum just purely working on your macro (tiers are the same as overwatches.) For bronze-gold it's just plain having a bigger army because you managed your economy better that will make you win. For that up until platinum-diamond it's properly scouting and building a smarter army than your enemy. Until you get to diamond you can micro like dogshit and still be okay. Although I do think there's a strong place for games that aren't super micro-intensive too. Ashes of the singularity is a pretty good example.

I think everything wrong with CNC4 can be condensed into one image of the scorpion tank design. [img]https://i.ytimg.com/vi/fo0mXZh9Sxo/hqdefault.jpg[/img] Whoever designed it must have had severe brain damage.

[QUOTE=Da_Maniac_;52143983]I think everything wrong with CNC4 can be condensed into one image of the scorpion tank design. [img]https://i.ytimg.com/vi/fo0mXZh9Sxo/hqdefault.jpg[/img] Whoever designed it must have had severe brain damage.[/QUOTE] I think whoever designed that tank took the name too literally. It looks like they glued parts of nod buildings and units together and called it a day. They glued a Obelisk of Nob to the tail, ripped parts off of the TibSun Hand of Nod as the claw to the body that reminds me of the attack bike in a way.

Fuck EA and fuck all of their games. Last game I played that was published by EA was Dead Space 3. In 2013. Couldn't care less for their reskinned FIFA and Madden bullshit every year, Battlefield doesn't interest me anymore and Battlefront was massively dissapointing. Titanfall appears to be good though, especially the second installment. Still, they killed off so many talented studios I hope they go out of business but that probably won't happen because of the EA Sports series. Who the fuck even plays FIFA or Madden or whatever?

It's not really the games that have changed over the years, it's connectivity. Back when people were playing Red Alert or TibSun, online play was rare and you didn't know that you were shit. Now with online play being so ubiquitous, players are confornted early with the fact that taking it easy and slow is not efficient and people who are much, much better than you exist. People complain about the intense micro and the rigid build orders of Starcraft, but AoE and other older games have the exact same problems when you start playing on a high enough level. EDIT: As an example of micro in SupCom for example, you have hoverbombing, which is a micro intensive trick to keep your bomber plane hovering instead of flying about, thus getting the maximum DPS out of it. In general, SupCom has a ridiculous amounts of potential for micro because of the way the game handles projectiles (vast majority of projectiles in the game can be dodged because they are not homing).

[QUOTE=V12US;52140901]Real time strategy died when the internet basically turned it into real time Korean simulator. Yes, it has strategy, but the bulk of the game is arcadish twitch skills. It's like buying a Military Tactical Realism Sim, and then when you play it it turns out it's actually Overwatch. There's nothing bad about that, but RTS has just gotten so niche that there just isn't a market for it anymore. The skill floor for these games is so utterly ridonkulously high that the average person just can't get any enjoyment out of it. I still think it's amazing to watch people play those games, though.[/QUOTE] The APM madness is something that usually happens in every RTS that isn't TA or SupCom, it just arises out of the need to make the absolutely most efficient use of your time and units. Personally, I think Relic RTSes especially know how to give you time to breathe and think about what to do, while still keeping the game at a brisk pace.

[QUOTE=Hans-Gunther 3.;52145082]The APM madness is something that usually happens in every RTS that isn't TA or SupCom, it just arises out of the need to make the absolutely most efficient use of your time and units. Personally, I think Relic RTSes especially know how to give you time to breathe and think about what to do, while still keeping the game at a brisk pace.[/QUOTE] TA and SupCom both require high APM if you want to play on a higher level.

Out of curiosity guys, what is your opinion on turn-based strategies? They at least don't seem to have an APM problem.

Turn-based games are slow and doesn't give you the instant action an RTS can. Both can be good, but one can't really replace the other for me.

[QUOTE=RB33;52145512]Turn-based games are slow and doesn't give you the instant action an RTS can. [b]Both can be good, but one can't really replace the other for me.[/b][/QUOTE] That's my opinion of turn-based strategy games, down to the wire. There's absolutely nothing wrong with TBS, but it really is an entirely different beast from RTS. It's a bit like comparing Myst to Portal - they're both puzzle games, but they play entirely differently.

[QUOTE=Nikita;52145507]Out of curiosity guys, what is your opinion on turn-based strategies? They at least don't seem to have an APM problem.[/QUOTE] TBS, RTS, and Grand Strategy are all completely different genres. Crusader Kings 2 is nothing like Civilization, which is nothing like Starcraft.

i mean chess and go are pretty popular and those are turn based strategy they arent really the same thing tho lol. It's akin-ish to comparing overwatch to CS:GO you might say. Completely different worlds even if they both fit under "strategy."

It's insane that people think playing slow and taking it easy is "the superior way" to enjoy the game while lashing out on people that are inherently better than them because they do things faster.

[QUOTE=CruelAddict;52147922]It's insane that people think playing slow and taking it easy is "the superior way" to enjoy the game while lashing out on people that are inherently better than them because they do things faster.[/QUOTE] What?

[QUOTE=kilerabv;52147952]What?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=V12US;52140901]Real time strategy died when the internet basically turned it into real time Korean simulator. Yes, it has strategy, but the bulk of the game is arcadish twitch skills. It's like buying a Military Tactical Realism Sim, and then when you play it it turns out it's actually Overwatch. There's nothing bad about that, but RTS has just gotten so niche that there just isn't a market for it anymore. The skill floor for these games is so utterly ridonkulously high that the average person just can't get any enjoyment out of it. I still think it's amazing to watch people play those games, though.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=GHOST!!!!;52141010]If you play online. I never played online because I couldn't be fucked playing against people who were infinitely better than I was, it was just fucking annoying really, it's like the way I look at StarCraft II is the same, singleplayer, awesome, multiplayer, get fucked. Fucking EA and trying to push for Esports shit, arseholes.[/QUOTE]

Everyone doesn't want to play a high-speed game, i'm probably among the slowest and defensive players there is. I like slow expansion, that sort of play is also more suited against AI.

[QUOTE=RB33;52148156]Everyone doesn't want to play a high-speed game, i'm probably among the slowest and defensive players there is. I like slow expansion, that sort of play is also more suited against AI.[/QUOTE] I needed SC2 to beat that habit out of me, since in any RTS it's quite literally one of the worst tactics that can be done. 3 hours Age of Mythology skirmishes when I was a kid were fun tho

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52148313]I needed SC2 to beat that habit out of me, since in any RTS it's quite literally one of the worst tactics that can be done. 3 hours Age of Mythology skirmishes when I was a kid were fun tho[/QUOTE] In some RTS, it really should be a viable strategy. I think there can be a limit on how much fun blitzing across a map can be, once in a while you should meet some static defences and figure out how to beat them, in other ways than just through speed.

Most RTS games have the One True Strategy that guarantees a victory-or-tie, and once mp players figure out what it is they all start using it. In that way you don't really have a choice in how to play, and being forced to either follow a script or lose kind of takes out the "strategy" and just leaves a "real-time game".

[QUOTE=Nikita;52148929]Most RTS games have the One True Strategy that guarantees a victory-or-tie, and once mp players figure out what it is they all start using it. In that way you don't really have a choice in how to play, and being forced to either follow a script or lose kind of takes out the "strategy" and just leaves a "real-time game".[/QUOTE] The game is flawed in that case and should be balanced for at least a couple equally valid strategies.