North Korea: Best Korea - General

[QUOTE=tomcat13;24125003]Pre-war Iraq was safer but was a hell of a lot less free. Post-war Iraq has a lot more political freedom but is a hell of a lot less safe. Safety or Freedom? Take your pick. Hell 1930s Germany and 1960s China were very "safe" and didn't have much crime. But what's the point if you ultimately have so few freedoms? Anyway back on topic, I just watched the whole VBS series on North Korea and goddamn. It's just depressing to watch. I could never go on a visit to NK because I would probably be arrested within the first 5 minutes for not kissing glorious leader's butt enough.[/QUOTE] Yeah right, a corrupt government and constant fear of being killed for your beliefs that's real freedom they got going on there man.

[QUOTE=NotMeh;20249278]Communism has nothing to do with North Korea.[/QUOTE] Fascism/Nazism had nothing to do with Germany. OH WAIT

[QUOTE=nivek;24113521]Not really... For those who disrespect the "dear leader", etc. They have a powerful army and nuclear arms.[/QUOTE] They have a SMALL army, and OUTDATED nuclear arms. I mean were talking warheads from 40 years ago, that have not been used, nor repaired.

Ich liebe north korea

[QUOTE=xxncxx;24135338]They have a SMALL army, and OUTDATED nuclear arms. I mean were talking warheads from 40 years ago, that have not been used, nor repaired.[/QUOTE] Oh yeah? It's the most militarized country, fourth largest standing army in the world. I also don't think they yet had warheads like 40 years ago. They didn't have a change to produce their own enriched uranium or plutonium to make the bomb at that time. Anyway if its outdated or not, you could have built a 100 megaton bomb 50 years ago if you had the resources. Only withing the last few years NK has claimed to have successfully detonated a test bomb, and some evidence supports that claim. They also have could collected plutonium from their nuclear reactors. If I remember right, Richard Muller talked some interesting stuff about NK and their nukes on [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BHdsjo-NR4"]his lecture.[/URL]

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;24134197]Yeah right, a corrupt government and constant fear of being killed for your beliefs that's real freedom they got going on there man.[/QUOTE] I don't get it, are you implying that Saddam's government wasn't full of corruption and that he didn't have people killed for their beliefs too? Anyway the North Korean Army is gigantic, but it's mostly made up of masses of infantry supported by armored divisions full of outdated tanks and an airforce of outdated aircraft. Their artillery stockpiles are massive though. They could do a ton of damage to South Korea in a very short period of time, but against SK and US airpower even their gigantic army would be no match in the end. The only thing that kept them from losing the Korean War was China's infantry that replaced their decimated army, and China's army was kept from being decimated by Russia's modern and well trained air force that supported them. But honestly an all out war would never happen anyway, because the U.S. and China are trading partners that are so heavily dependent on one another that any conflict that would disrupt our relationship would be economic suicide.

[QUOTE=tomcat13;24156505]I don't get it, are you implying that Saddam's government wasn't full of corruption and that he didn't have people killed for their beliefs too? Anyway the North Korean Army is gigantic, but it's mostly made up of masses of infantry supported by armored divisions full of outdated tanks and an airforce of outdated aircraft. Their artillery stockpiles are massive though. They could do a ton of damage to South Korea in a very short period of time, but against SK and US airpower even their gigantic army would be no match in the end. The only thing that kept them from losing the Korean War was China's infantry that replaced their decimated army, and China's army was kept from being decimated by Russia's modern and well trained air force that supported them. But honestly an all out war would never happen anyway, because the U.S. and China are trading partners that are so heavily dependent on one another that any conflict that would disrupt our relationship would be economic suicide.[/QUOTE] Nuke them both

[QUOTE=tomcat13;24125003]Pre-war Iraq was safer but was a hell of a lot less free. Post-war Iraq has a lot more political freedom but is a hell of a lot less safe. Safety or Freedom? Take your pick. Hell 1930s Germany and 1960s China were very "safe" and didn't have much crime. But what's the point if you ultimately have so few freedoms? Anyway back on topic, I just watched the whole VBS series on North Korea and goddamn. It's just depressing to watch. I could never go on a visit to NK because I would probably be arrested within the first 5 minutes for not kissing glorious leader's butt enough.[/QUOTE] Any man who sacrifices freedom for safety deserves neither.

Who's to say who [I]deserves[/I] what? Some people want to be safe, that's up to them. Other's want to be free, which is also their choice. Personally I'd settle for a balance between the two. No point in absolute freedom if you're dead in a weeks time.

If you sacrifice freedom for safety to me it shows cowardice.

I just read a book called "Nothing to Envy: Ordinary Lives in North Korea". It follows the lives of a few ordinary DPRK citizens on various points of the social ladder, from the elite members of the Communist party, all the way down to street orphans during the so-called "Arduous March". A very good read, tells a lot about the history and social structure of the country. [url]http://www.amazon.com/Nothing-Envy-Ordinary-Lives-North/dp/0385523904[/url]

[QUOTE=bravehat;24157220]If you sacrifice freedom for safety to me it shows cowardice.[/QUOTE] It shows sensibility to me. Apt analogy: Wearing a helmet in a warzone is going to restrict your heads mobility, but it could save your life. Having laws in general restrict all of us, but keep society from devolving into anarchy. Is your stance that we should all be free to do whatever we want, but at the same time all have to fend for ourselves? I think that'd be a horrible way to live. Surely its best to leave the bulk of the fighting/civil protection to those who are trained for it, so the rest of us can get on with enjoying life.

[QUOTE=Kade;24157965]It shows sensibility to me. Apt analogy: Wearing a helmet in a warzone is going to restrict your heads mobility, but it could save your life. Having laws in general restrict all of us, but keep society from devolving into anarchy. Is your stance that we should all be free to do whatever we want, but at the same time all have to fend for ourselves? I think that'd be a horrible way to live. Surely its best to leave the bulk of the fighting/civil protection to those who are trained for it, so the rest of us can get on with enjoying life.[/QUOTE] On the flip side we should avoid laws that are too restrictive of course.

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." Ben Franklin. I tend to agree for the most part. While limitations must be applied and order kept, to sacrifice one's freedoms for the sake of security is taking away humanity for the sake of keeping humans.

[QUOTE=Kade;24157965]It shows sensibility to me. Apt analogy: Wearing a helmet in a warzone is going to restrict your heads mobility, but it could save your life. Having laws in general restrict all of us, but keep society from devolving into anarchy. Is your stance that we should all be free to do whatever we want, but at the same time all have to fend for ourselves? I think that'd be a horrible way to live. Surely its best to leave the bulk of the fighting/civil protection to those who are trained for it, so the rest of us can get on with enjoying life.[/QUOTE] You completely missed what I meant. I don't mean we should be an anarchy, I mean stuff like this. In pre war Iraq you had no freedoms but were relatively safe. In post war Iraq you have the freedom to vote and have a say, if you are willing to give those up for that relative safety again, in my eyes you deserve neither.

I hope this hasn´t been posted already [QUOTE]What's It Like to Be a Tourist in North Korea? An American business professor, Patrick Chovanec, visits fields, casinos, and kindergartens in North Korea -- and explains how the Hermit Kingdom is and is not like Mordor.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/08/16/a_tourist_in_pyongyang"]http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/08/16/a_tourist_in_pyongyang[/URL]

[QUOTE=bravehat;24158151]In post war Iraq you have the freedom to vote and have a say, if you are willing to give those up for that relative safety again, in my eyes you deserve neither.[/QUOTE] People who are scared out of their minds from years of war, seeing friends, family and strangers get blown apart day in day out, people who just want some peace for a while by any means necessary; you deem these people unworthy of freedom and security? My main beef is with the quotation itself though. I've always hated it. The connotations of it are that ANY sacrifice of freedom is a bad thing, which is absurd. It's a very sweeping quotation "Any man who sacrifices freedom for safety deserves neither." - seems rather brash. "Any man who unreasonably sacrifices most of his freedom for an excessive amount of safety still deserves both, but perhaps needs some help to become more well adjusted" - is a much more balanced and thought out statement. (and yes I am purposely taking the piss a bit)

It's a slippery slope... on the other end of the argument, sacrificing too much freedom for safety turns our once happy little democracy into something none of us want. :suicide:

This would be a more informative thread but I can't see the pics. Mind re uploading them to a different site so they will load?

I've watched a few documentaries on North Korea now and the place seems terrible. What I really want to know is how the people are living outside of their main city of Pyongyang...

[QUOTE=W00tbeer1;24177272]I've watched a few documentaries on North Korea now and the place seems terrible. What I really want to know is how the people are living outside of their main city of Pyongyang...[/QUOTE] They aren't. They work all day in fields or livestock, and don't get any food. They're regularly rounded up and shot and their children are abducted and taken into the city for education before being not returned to their families. Famine, disease, no running water, no power.

I'm absolutely loving the fact their government has recently called upon a 'destruction no one has ever experienced before' among the US and South Korea. If they attack the USs military in any way in todays world, the battle will last less than a day with an embarrassing demise in their country, the worst case scenario is if China gets involved, which would probably not happen since we're their staple for their economic growth.

[QUOTE=Detective P;24177402]They aren't. They work all day in fields or livestock, and don't get any food. They're regularly rounded up and shot and their children are abducted and taken into the city for education before being not returned to their families. Famine, disease, no running water, no power.[/QUOTE] I want to see somebody take the risk to film the farmers and country people of North Korea... all we get to see is the 'staged' city life.

FYI pre-war Iraq was tons better than Iraq became after the US decided to invade.

[QUOTE=archangel125;24182407]FYI pre-war Iraq was tons better than Iraq became after the US decided to invade.[/QUOTE] It's ironic because most people today blame everything war related on Obama now rather than the one who started the mess and Americas decline (bush)

I love North Korea, it's so surreal.

[QUOTE=ep9832;20258737] [IMG]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4022/4252526457_27a9bdd1ff_b.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] North Korea doesn't look like much of an shithole in this picture, seems like things are rather alright. I'm quite sure lot of bad things said about NK are ridiculously overexcessed, but I'm not saying that things are good either there. [editline]04:24PM[/editline] Actually, remove the flags, the giant-ass hotel, and replace the people with scandinavian people, and it would look like a picture taken from Finland

WE should liberate the north coreans. It will give us another trading partner.

[QUOTE=NickFury6;24181434]the worst case scenario is if China gets involved, which would probably not happen since we're their staple for their economic growth.[/QUOTE] Actually, world's economy is China's bitch right now, they can do whatever the fuck they want without any fear of getting bankrupt.

[QUOTE=Raiskauskone;24185468]North Korea doesn't look like much of an shithole in this picture, seems like things are rather alright. I'm quite sure lot of bad things said about NK are ridiculously overexcessed, but I'm not saying that things are good either there. [editline]04:24PM[/editline] Actually, remove the flags, the giant-ass hotel, and replace the people with scandinavian people, and it would look like a picture taken from Finland[/QUOTE] All those buildings? Empty. Almost all of them. The giant hotel in the background? Empty, no one has ever stayed in it. It cost millions to build. Those people? 14 hour work days, one TV station broadcasting propaganda, and it's rare that they have more than a few bites to eat. And that's good by NK standards. Just outside the city there's a mass famine, constant flooding, death squads, concentration and prison camps, it's hell there, but they keep up appearances and only let the media see a small portion of the actual country to keep the west thinking it doesn't look that bad. Really, don't fall for it. [editline]04:33PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Raiskauskone;24185563]Actually, world's economy is China's bitch right now, they can do whatever the fuck they want without any fear of getting bankrupt.[/QUOTE] Yeah, this. China could go to all internal industry in a week without any problems, becoming totally self-sufficient if they just absorbed the private industry based there, and we'd all go bankrupt. They'd sip on their western champaign and we'd be in ruins in no time flat. that's why we never talk back to China,and why we never will get into it unless it's necessary. War with China starts? Well they pull out economy out from underneath us and we cripple in a few days.