Usually the comments on anything remotely like this are completely fucking garbage, and while a lot of it is, I've found some that are honestly pretty interesting, especially these two.
[QUOTE=A commenter named Ross]There was a bit of telling moment around 18:20 that seems at least to appear like this child is actually MORE uncomfortable with the topic of gender than children usually are. Literally leaving the room to avoid it.
Not questioning the parents intention to make the child feel "more freedom" - but the result seems to just be overwhelming confusion. The interviewer even seems a bit surprised at this. Also just for context - while I'm a straight guy I'm born/raised/living in the San Francisco Bay Area. I have several trans friends, there's not a "phobic" bone in my body.
But to summarize my point: perhaps forcefully shoving the "YOU ARE NO GENDER!!!" down a child's throat is equally overwhelming as yelling at your son "BOYS DONT CRY, MAN UP!". It's like instead of telling the child to live up to make/female standards, that's just been replaced with a new standard of "non gender" with its own set of rules to follow. Which is the opposite of freedom.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=A commenter named Alexi]i found it particularly telling that they have entire shelves dedicated to "feminist theory" while having zero masculinity in the home. Even pushing mika to wear only femme clothing. I am bi, I have known and befriended gays and trans. I don't care if they choose that. But these children are not getting that choice, they are being told that gender is bad! but most of all MASCULINITY is bad. Anything obviously male is bad. Also Who the fuck lets a 5 yo play with nailpolish? My daughter didn't get any of that till she was 8.[/QUOTE]
i think, without any science to back me up, that the loss of identity that this causes is problematic. more so than that, it isnt worth riskng a childs life like this either - in the US i saw some figures that ~0.6% of their population is transgender. this is small. it probably does more damage in the long run to raise children like this.
i would never raise my child like this, am not sure how or if its enforced in swedish schools (it probably is) and then, to you the swedish state, i give you my finger
[QUOTE=Cabbage;52508359]because left to their own devices, children will not grow up 'genderless'. Boys and girls behave differently especially at a young age and this can be seen independently of societal 'limits'
As such, you have to actually teach the kids to take on this kind of thinking, which is textbook agenda pushing
[editline]-[/editline]
i guess i should say 'agender' pushing :smug:[/QUOTE]
i would think that the parents would accept it if either or both of the kids ended up deciding they are a boy or a girl and perhaps following more typical gender roles, if that's what the kids wanted to do. like i don't think they're trying to force genderlessness, they're just not trying to push them one way or the other
[QUOTE=Kierany9;52508475]Usually the comments on anything remotely like this are completely fucking garbage, and while a lot of it is, I've found some that are honestly pretty interesting, especially these two.[/QUOTE]
[quote]i found it particularly telling that they have entire shelves dedicated to "feminist theory" while having zero masculinity in the home. Even pushing mika to wear only femme clothing. I am bi, I have known and befriended gays and trans. I don't care if they choose that. But these children are not getting that choice, they are being told that gender is bad! but most of all MASCULINITY is bad. Anything obviously male is bad. Also Who the fuck lets a 5 yo play with nailpolish? My daughter didn't get any of that till she was 8.[/quote]
Let's just ignore they got him a shitton of hot wheels and he obviously loves playing with them.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;52508433]This this this.
Genders should exist like a hair color. You can have any you want untill the paint starting damaging your hair and you go bald.
Those parents metaphorically shave their kids off all their hair and then throw fuckton of wigs at them.
And althought they might look ok from distance, people will always suspect whenever they are undercover skinheads.
Metaphorically speaking.[/QUOTE]
there's a point where an analogy stops making any sense
[QUOTE=karimatrix;52508433]This this this.
Genders should exist like a hair color. You can have any you want untill the paint starting damaging your hair and you go bald.
Those parents metaphorically shave their kids off all their hair and then throw fuckton of wigs at them.
And althought they might look ok from distance, people will always suspect whenever they are undercover skinheads.
Metaphorically speaking.[/QUOTE]
Did this get lost in translation or something?
I was never forced any "gender stereotypes" but this feels bit like lunacy to me.
[editline]26th July 2017[/editline]
Also why do they get tangled with the hair multiple times, are there no men with long hair in Sweden or something?
[QUOTE=Combine 177;52508685]I was never forced any "gender stereotypes" but this feels bit like lunacy to me.
[editline]26th July 2017[/editline]
Also why do they get tangled with the hair multiple times, are there no men with long hair in Sweden or something?[/QUOTE]
Why would long hair automaticly be attributed to being a female?
[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;52508732]Why would long hair automaticly be attributed to being a female?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, this is what I would like to know too considering if we even take look at stuff about history even for as example plenty men have long hair, it is most often the "progressive" people I hear having the most absurd views what is normal for male or female, at least on internet, I've even heard men can't be singers or cooks, meanwhile most known singers and culinarian are men which again makes me think what are these people babbling about.
[QUOTE=Combine 177;52508746]Yeah, this is what I would like to know too considering if we even take look at stuff about history even for as example plenty men have long hair, it is most often the "progressive" people I hear having the most absurd views what is normal for male or female, at least on internet, I've even heard men can't be singers or cooks, meanwhile most known singers and culinarian are men which again makes me think what are these people babbling about.[/QUOTE]
I think it is the same case with the people calling everything sexist, that those people are the most sexist people themselves.
[B]Disclaimer:[/B] I only have a skin deep familiarity with developmental psychology from a few psych classes from College and only anecdotal experience from my own upbringing.
Honestly I think its healthy that their parents are letting them be whatever they see fit. It seems that gender identity is definitely a journey of self discovery. Children are naturally curious and consequentially are also naturally impressionable; thus showing them all the avenues and letting them decide is IMO the best course of action.
Of course they'll need guidance from their parents of the nuances and shades of gray about the world as being sheltered forever no matter what the circumstances (whether it be the progressiveness of Sweden, or being home/private schooling forever, or etc). No matter the best of intentions there will always be some biases that will be passed on to children from their parents. Ideally we'll always try to raise them to be level headed, respectful and generally good individuals but we'll truly see how they turn out by the end of their teenage years.
[B]TL;DR:[/B] Gender is an ever changing aspect of one's psyche that is part of self discovery and really finalizes towards the end of one's formative years (teens).
I think this experiment will make the low birthrates of western society even worse. You can only make babies with a man and a woman (oh no, a gender stereotype), and going this way of genderless upbringing will confuse them. And all this just to appease the 0.01% of the population.
They're warping their children's reality of the world into some genderless utopia which doesn't exist. The boy in the video obviously feel's extremely uncomfortable if people even mention gender, I can only imagine that it will get worse for them growing up.
[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;52508768]I think it is the same case with the people calling everything sexist, that those people are the most sexist people themselves.[/QUOTE]
I've seen this argument used for race issues too and it's never made any sense to me.
EDIT
Nice job rating me dumb without actually explaining how your argument made sense lol you got me
Raising a child "genderless" just sounds to me like you are pushing it into some 3rd category that it doesn't understand and that will mostly cause problems during their development.
[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;52508779]I think this experiment will make the low birthrates of western society even worse. You can only make babies with a man and a woman (oh no, a gender stereotype), and going this way of genderless upbringing will confuse them. And all this just to appease the 0.01% of the population.[/QUOTE]
and yet again, knee jerk contrarians prove themselves to be worse than whatever they're arguing against
[img]https://puu.sh/wTFns/272b97427d.png[/img]
embarrassing
[QUOTE=karimatrix;52508433]This this this.
Genders should exist like a hair color. You can have any you want untill the paint starting damaging your hair and you go bald.
Those parents metaphorically shave their kids off all their hair and then throw fuckton of wigs at them.
And althought they might look ok from distance, people will always suspect whenever they are undercover skinheads.
Metaphorically speaking.[/QUOTE]
Uh what?
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;52508815]and yet again, knee jerk contrarians prove themselves to be worse than whatever they're arguing against
[img]https://puu.sh/wTFns/272b97427d.png[/img]
embarrassing[/QUOTE]
Those are two different things.
[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;52508839]Those are two different things.[/QUOTE]
They aren't. You're arguing against things nobody is saying in both of them. You can't bring yourself to engage in a proper discussion like an adult, so you have to argue against this "everything is sexist" strawman instead
[QUOTE=Gamerman12;52508485]now i'm curious, what are the limits on society you deem not pointless? specifically relating to gender politics that is.[/QUOTE]
Traditional gender roles, while restrictive and philosophically and intellectually indefensible, certainly help with maintaining, or even increasing, population numbers, for example - and for a society competing with other ones, larger population (to a point - this mostly works in the context of historical population numbers) means more manpower, more potential resources gathered, and a potential upper hand in warfare.
I'm starting to think that the concept of "gender identity" isn't real. Sure, you can become the opposite sex if you want to, but I think all of this other stuff that surrounds it to justify it is pretty dangerous. It's kind of like they're taking the success of the gay rights movement and superimposing it on this transgender thing. They're completely different things.
I think my biggest problem with this is that they're kids. Kids have to be lead a certain way in life up until a certain point so they have some form of initial direction, you can't give complete free-roam to a 4 year old.
[B]However[/B], I'm more than happy having schools and parents tell kids when they reach an older age that they can identify as a different gender if they choose to. Think of it like religion, when people are brought up in religious families, the kids usually become part of the religion straight away based on the parents' wishes. However, a good parent should let the kid decide at an older age if they want to continue following that religion or not, and support their decision.
Maybe that's not the best analogy, but it's certainly better than another one in this thread
[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;52508779]I think this experiment will make the low birthrates of western society even worse. [/QUOTE]
We have a big enough population, would a lower birth rate really be so terrible that society collapses? Would it even be bad?
Japan needs it more anyways
[editline]26th July 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52509313]I think my biggest problem with this is that they're kids. Kids have to be lead a certain way in life up until a certain point so they have some form of initial direction, you can't give complete free-roam to a 4 year old.[/QUOTE]
Tbh the best way to raise a kid seems to 'Give them a strong authority figure*, give them direction, but also let them control their lives'
[QUOTE=J!NX;52509359]We have a big enough population, would a lower birth rate really be so terrible that society collapses? Would it even be bad?
Japan needs it more anyways
[editline]26th July 2017[/editline]
Tbh the best way to raise a kid seems to 'Give them strong authority, give them direction, but also let them control their lives'[/QUOTE]
When the birth rate gets lower than what's needed to replenish the existing population, yes, that IS objectively terrible for a society. Just look at the economic and demographic crisis Japan is in.
Seems to be less as without gender but more with an excess of it.
Also guys if we're talking about helping the low birthrates of western societies, this isn't where the fight is. The only known for sure way to deal with it though long-term is by curtailing womens rights and rolling back technology (as these led us to today) tho so uh... good luck with that.
For now until we figure something out there's immigration to deal with the issue.
[QUOTE=J!NX;52509359]Tbh the best way to raise a kid seems to 'Give them strong authority, give them direction, but also let them control their lives'[/QUOTE]
That depends where you draw the line. Giving a kid strong authority is them basically saying "I don't want to go to school so I won't, and I want to eat sweets all day". Some kids are more realistic than others, but at this age they will want control without fully knowing the consequences of their actions, and their thought process and likes/dislikes are very susceptible to change at that age.
Kids can get freedom and authority where deemed appropriate, though. They can take part in group activities and make decisions in these, decide who their friends are, decide what toys they want, etc.
When I think about gender I think about people making important life choices to possibly go on hormone therapy or go for operations to ensure they don't end up depressed or feel like they're in the wrong body, although obviously some people can change gender and just change what they wear, or just simply identify as a different gender and not change anything about their appearance. But still, is this the kind of thing you want to be thinking about as a kid? It seems like too much of an important decision to make at an age where you aren't really supposed to be making important decisions by yourself
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52509552]That depends where you draw the line. Giving a kid strong authority is them basically saying "I don't want to go to school so I won't, and I want to eat sweets all day". Some kids are more realistic than others, but at this age they will want control without fully knowing the consequences of their actions, and their thought process and likes/dislikes are very susceptible to change at that age.[/QUOTE]
I more meant, being the authority rather than giving them it, terrible wording
though your argument still applies of/c perfectly well. It works both ways I agree, since being too authoritative and forcing your kid to go to school and totally banning them from sweets would also be bad.
though of/c making them feel like they have control over their lives is pretty important
[QUOTE=djjkxbox;52509552]That depends where you draw the line. Giving a kid strong authority is them basically saying "I don't want to go to school so I won't, and I want to eat sweets all day". Some kids are more realistic than others, but at this age they will want control without fully knowing the consequences of their actions, and their thought process and likes/dislikes are very susceptible to change at that age.
Kids can get freedom and authority where deemed appropriate, though. They can take part in group activities and make decisions in these, decide who their friends are, decide what toys they want, etc.
When I think about gender I think about people making important life choices to possibly go on hormone therapy or go for operations to ensure they don't end up depressed or feel like they're in the wrong body, although obviously some people can change gender and just change what they wear, or just simply identify as a different gender and not change anything about their appearance. But still, is this the kind of thing you want to be thinking about as a kid? It seems like too much of an important decision to make at an age where you aren't really supposed to be making important decisions for yourself[/QUOTE]
The reason why they push it on kids is because the earlier you start HRT, the better. If you're MtF and start HRT at 12 you will be indistinguishable from other girls. But if you start at 18, then testosterone has already done a fair amount of damage to your body. There really is no clear cut answer as to how to solve this. I guess all we can hope for is the tech to get better.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
