God damn lmao what is wrong with these parents.
When I have a son, I'll treat him like a regular boy. If he grows up and decides he is a girl then okay thats cool. Not a problem with me. Shit I'll take my son to get his nails done if he want. Who cares.
But forcing this shit on little kids who dont even have much understanding of the world is crazy. "What pronoun do you want today?" Oh fucking please. Look at the kid when he asked that! He looked confused and pondering like he is trying to solve a math question he havent learn about yet. All this dose is confuse them.
Most kids, the very vast majority of kids are going to stick with what they got. Born a girl? Mostly likely going to indentify as a girl. Only a very small percentage of people are transgender. Why force your kids to do this shit just because they MIGHT be turn out to be transgender in the future? L
Let kids be kids instead of socio-political objects you videotape online to show off how progressive you are. Its unhealthy.
[b]@Silly Sil[/b]
No matter which way you cut it, she experienced gender dysphoria. She hated her biological sex and went on HRT for 5 years before realizing that transition wasn't the right solution for her. She still experiences gender dysphoria, but as she put it, she has no gender identity because gender is a social construct. She does not inherently have a gender. Gender was done to her.
The reason why gender identity is an extremely dangerous line of thinking is that it tends to imply that transition is the only option. It creates a lot of situations like, "My gender identity is female, but my biological sex is male. Fuck. The technology for sex reassignment is pretty primitive these days, but since my gender identity is female, transition is the only real option. Everything else would be a compromise." It traps you. It consumes you. It makes you think there's no other way out, because it makes you think the way you view yourself is immutable.
Let's say I would prefer having a vagina to a penis, does that make my gender identity female? What if, later down the line, I realize that I had some muscular issues in my lower abdomen and that was causing pain and thus discontent with my penis? What if I fix this muscular issue and am now content with my penis? Was my gender identity not really female in the first place? That's the danger with the term, because you can never [i]truly[/i] know what your gender identity really is. It is always up in the air.
There are [url=https://thirdwaytrans.com/]tons of other people who went through her experience[/url], I'd also recommend reading these blog posts and videos.
Gender dysphoria is simply discontent/dread/unhappiness/discomfort with one's own gender/sex. It really is that simple. Gender identity is a [i]theory[/i]. You're talking about it as if it's fact. We don't know the truth about it yet.
[b]@hexpunK[/b]
You're right. I misspoke. I really just don't want to get into the "gender identity is a spectrum" bit because it further complicates an already ridiculously complicated concept. Keeping it to just male/female keeps the discussion relatively simple.
Anyway...
Traits that are considered masculine/feminine are mutable. I could prefer one clothing style one day, and another day I could prefer another. Gender identity is immutable. It asserts that the way you feel about yourself cannot be changed and will be that way for the rest of your life. If gender identity is a spectrum, then how would you possibly define it? What is under the gender identity umbrella, and what isn't? What's mutable, and what isn't?
[QUOTE=Not64;52519689]No matter which way you cut it, she experienced gender dysphoria. She hated her biological sex and went on HRT for 5 years before realizing that transition wasn't the right solution for her. She still experiences gender dysphoria, but as she put it, she has no gender identity because gender is a social construct. She does not inherently have a gender. Gender was done to her.[/QUOTE]
She experienced gender dysphoria and hated her female body then she transitioned and felt second gender dysphoria and hated her new male body and then she detransitioned and now has another gender dysphoria or is it back to the first one?
So does he have gender identity in your logic or what? Or she had one then another and now she doesn't have it?
And she identified herself as a woman few times in this video you posted. She explained she did not have "real, meaningful attempts made to process the issues" she was facing at the time, implying if she had she wouldn't go for transition because that was not the solution to the issue she was having at the time. Don't twist her words to fit your narrative.
[QUOTE=Not64;52519689]The reason why gender identity is an extremely dangerous line of thinking is that it tends to imply that transition is the only option. It creates a lot of situations like, "My gender identity is female, but my biological sex is male. Fuck. The technology for sex reassignment is pretty primitive these days, but since my gender identity is female, transition is the only real option. Everything else would be a compromise." It traps you. It consumes you. It makes you think there's no other way out, because it makes you think the way you view yourself is immutable.[/QUOTE]
Only if you define it as either male or female like you are doing. Not everyone with gender dysphoria undergoes transition.
[QUOTE=Not64;52519689]Let's say I would prefer having a vagina to a penis, does that make my gender identity female? What if, later down the line, I realize that I had some muscular issues in my lower abdomen and that was causing pain and thus discontent with my penis? What if I fix this muscular issue and am now content with my penis? Was my gender identity not really female in the first place? That's the danger with the term, because you can never [I]truly[/I] know what your gender identity really is. It is always up in the air.[/QUOTE]
That's why you rule out all the things that have symptoms of gender dysphoria before diagnosing someone with gender dysphoria and give them HRT.
If you have paranoid dillusions that if you don't eat all the food from the fridge it will eat you, you have something that from the outside looks like bulimia but it isn't.
[QUOTE=Not64;52519689]There are [URL="https://thirdwaytrans.com/"]tons of other people who went through her experience[/URL], I'd also recommend reading these blog posts and videos.[/QUOTE]
Yeah because we have a craze for pumping HRTs into people who say they have gender dysphoria without properly evaluating this. I've told you, there's a myriad of reasons you can have that will make you feel disconnected with your body or confused about your gender and it's a terrible mistake made by supposed professionals to give these people HRT.
[QUOTE=Not64;52519689]Gender dysphoria is simply discontent/dread/unhappiness/discomfort with one's own gender/sex. It really is that simple. Gender identity is a [I]theory[/I]. You're talking about it as if it's fact. We don't know the truth about it yet.[/QUOTE]
But the model of gender dysphoria without gender identity makes no sense whatsoever. If your theory isn't consistent it can't be worse than mine.
[QUOTE=Not64;52519689]You're right. I misspoke. I really just don't want to get into the "gender identity is a spectrum" bit because it further complicates an already ridiculously complicated concept. Keeping it to just male/female keeps the discussion relatively simple.[/QUOTE]
Why? It actually fixes all your problems. But you seem to be super content with opposing the term gender identity to the point of defining it in a way that it doesn't make sense.
Refute this please "Okay then, my definition of sexuality is: you are either straight or gay. But I know there are bisexual people out there therefore sexuality is a social construct, it doesn't exist and nobody has it." or this one "Humans have sex and it's either male or female, but there are exceptions so no one has sex and it's a social construct" in a way that doesn't refute your argument about gender identity.
[QUOTE=Not64;52519689]Traits that are considered masculine/feminine are mutable. I could prefer one clothing style one day, and another day I could prefer another. Gender identity is immutable. It asserts that the way you feel about yourself cannot be changed and will be that way for the rest of your life. If gender identity is a spectrum, then how would you possibly define it? What is under the gender identity umbrella, and what isn't? What's mutable, and what isn't?[/QUOTE]
What do you mean how do you define it? It's how you feel about yourself on the male-female scale, how would you define yourself psychologically, as in ignoring your physical state. For the vast majority it's going to be somewhere close to either of the extremes. But it doesn't have to be, exactly how it is with sex.
I would prefer you respond to my post as a whole instead of break it up into chunks. I am not a fan of the "split up quote chain" method of discourse. I feel it is the equivalent of interrupting me in the middle of talking in real life. It also tends to split up the core discussion into 10 or so sub-discussions, losing the core discussion in the process.
[QUOTE=Not64;52520212]I would prefer you respond to my post as a whole instead of break it up into chunks. I am not a fan of the "split up quote chain" method of discourse. I feel it is the equivalent of interrupting me in the middle of talking in real life. It also tends to split up the core discussion into 10 or so sub-discussions, losing the core discussion in the process.[/QUOTE]
Yeah you go ahead and make 20 different arguments and tell me to reply to them as a whole. In a discussion face to face we would talk about each point individually one by one. Or else we would never actually address individual points and just talk in vague generalizations. You have an opportunity here to talk in details but you don't want to do that. Fine.
You're fucking wrong. How about that? No? A bit more in detail then.
You are making the definition of gender identity purposefully overly restrictive in order to justify calling it bullshit. You're going "but there can only be 2 genders, therefore gender doesn't exist".
For the third time: [B]Refute this please[/B] [U]"Okay then, my definition of sexuality is: you are either straight or gay. But I know there are bisexual people out there therefore sexuality is a social construct, it doesn't exist and nobody has it." [/U]or this one "[U]Humans have sex and it's either male or female, but there are exceptions so no one has sex and it's a social construct"[/U] in a way that doesn't refute your argument about gender identity.
And your examples of people getting HRT due to unprofessionalism of psychologists and then detransitioning is not proof that gender identity is fluid or whatever.
Also you still haven't explained, even though I've asked multiple times, how does that work that people without dysphoria don't have gender identity but people who have dysphoria do. Joe's gender identity is male (that's how he identifies himself even if hypothetically removed from his body), his sex is male, he doesn't have gender dysphoria. How does it work that if I would kidnap him keep him sedated and used some miracle HRT on him that would turn him into a woman-Joe in few days, he would hate his body if he woke up and would [B]never[/B] adjust to it? Or more realistic example, how is it possible that not one child who was brought up as the other sex (either boy brought up as a girl or the opposite) never accepted that and always went back to their "original" gender? Your model would allow them to "reason themselves" into that new sex since they aren't locked to their gender identity, correct?
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;52520944]You're fucking wrong. How about that? No? A bit more in detail then.[/QUOTE]
I had a feeling this discussion was pointless. Believe whatever you want to believe.
[QUOTE=Not64;52521415]I had a feeling this discussion was pointless. Believe whatever you want to believe.[/QUOTE]
I think you missed the part of my post where I stopped making jokes about your wish to avoid talking about details and addressed some of your points. But whatever, pretend it's not there and believe what you want to believe.
You really got some nerve to call discussion with me pointless when it's you who ignored a number of arguments I've made towards you.
I don't want to get involved in these comments, I just want to put out there that I believe its sickening to suede a child's understanding of genders before they are old enough to make their own decisions backed by logic and reasoning.
[QUOTE=Luafox;52521720]isn't that what you do if you tell them they're a boy/girl and they have to play with cars/dolls and wear pants/dresses[/QUOTE]
I probably have really bad reading going on here on my part but is this reply aimed just to the swayed part or the logic and reasoning part.
[QUOTE=Luafox;52521720]isn't that what you do if you tell them they're a boy/girl and they have to play with cars/dolls and wear pants/dresses[/QUOTE]
Not really. The problem with children is they do not fully understand the concept of gender till like 6-7. Before that depending on the age they do not fully understand the differences between sex, gender identity and gender expression. An example of this is when you ask a child running naked on a beach with other little naked children what the other kid's genders are and they respond "I don't know they aren't wearing either pants or dresses".
Not that I excuse forcing children to wear certain clothes or play with certain toys.
[QUOTE=Luafox;52522100]the swayed part, sorry for not being clearer[/QUOTE]
Ah, then I agree with you fully, it is dumb to associate liking things and practicing things with gender.
Not to talk about when we start associating liking and practicing to gender it just becomes nonsense battle where people throw around varying opinions, and when things are purely based on opinions at that point saying something is male or female is informative as saying something is good or bad, it tells us nothing because everyone has their own opinions on what is good or bad and using good and bad work as example quite well because shaming males(don't crucify me for saying this) and by that I mean more negative things are lobbed to "male" category for some reason, who said being nice is female thing? I've personally met more nice males than females so to me personally being nice is male thing.
And even then if we try to look at nature and other animals as whole for what is normal for males or females we quite quickly notice beauty would be male characteristic which is some reason for humans considered as female characteristic quite often.
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