Police Officer Shoots, Kills Firefighter While Being Beaten In The Face - General

[QUOTE=Zambies!;44123459]You can hear a pretty bad crack on the second punch :([/QUOTE] I doubt the cop was that badly hurt, but still p. much justified imo. You don't fuck with cops.

[QUOTE=Apache249;44099283]Yeah whatever you say. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE] I've seen grown men take a tazer without any drink in them so there's that. [editline]4th March 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Bat-shit;44126992]I doubt the cop was that badly hurt, but still p. much justified imo. You don't fuck with cops.[/QUOTE] iirc it was said earlier the dude broke his fuckin eye socket [editline]4th March 2014[/editline] Christ I'm glad some of you guys aren't cops. The last thing I'd want is a drunk beefy bastard like this firefighter roaming the street and beating down people. Yes, it's a shitty situation and it's awful that someone died, but there was no other out. If there was, the cop would probably have taken it, but you dont really think about doing some judo throw to KO the dude ontop of you when he's a 250+ beefed up firefighter with a [b].22[/b] BAC wailing on your face

[QUOTE=No Party Hats;44127617]Christ I'm glad some of you guys aren't cops. The last thing I'd want is a drunk beefy bastard like this firefighter roaming the street and beating down people. Yes, it's a shitty situation and it's awful that someone died, [B]but there was no other out. If there was, the cop would probably have taken it[/B], but you dont really think about doing some judo throw to KO the dude ontop of you when he's a 250+ beefed up firefighter with a [b].22[/b] BAC wailing on your face[/QUOTE] It was said number of times he could have waited for backup instead of trying to wrestle a big, beefy, drunk, uncooperative guy. That would be the safest option. Letting him go and wrestling him are not the only 2 possible options.

Too bad the cop got'em first.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;44127782]It was said number of times he could have waited for backup instead of trying to wrestle a big, beefy, drunk, uncooperative guy. That would be the safest option. Letting him go and wrestling him are not the only 2 possible options.[/QUOTE] I don't think you completely comprehend the situation here. Waiting for backup would either requiring the cop to have the dude wandering about and fucking more stuff up, or having the cop sitting on the dude and trying to hold him down, which would not work either. The cop tried to put himself into a position that allowed for him to have more control of the firefighter while waiting for backup from the looks of it, and that only pissed the firefighter off and made him go over the edge.

[QUOTE=MR-X;44095819]I think the worst part about this case is that the bystanders could have helped the officer out and made the arrest but insteadthey chose the stand by and do absolutely nothing. if one person would have helped the police officer the firefighters life could have possibly been saved.[/QUOTE] boy if I had a dime anyone said "if only the cameraman went and saved them instead" if you listened to the people talking, it was clear they weren't exactly on the cop's side- they were heckling him by asking what the guy he was holding down did. Chances are (regardless of whether they were the firefighter's friends or random bystanders) they started recording the commotion thinking they'd have evidence to post online and rant about how cops are abusive assholes. and even if they DID want to be helpful, what do you as a random third party do? dogpile on top of a beligerent drunk person and an armed officer? What if they ran off [QUOTE=Cureless;44127943]Too bad the cop got'em first.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=thelurker1234;44105952]Those "fuck da poeleec" types are so annoying.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=No Party Hats;44128221]I don't think you completely comprehend the situation here. Waiting for backup would either requiring the cop to have the dude wandering about and fucking more stuff up, or having the cop sitting on the dude and trying to hold him down, which would not work either. The cop tried to put himself into a position that allowed for him to have more control of the firefighter while waiting for backup from the looks of it, and that only pissed the firefighter off and made him go over the edge.[/QUOTE] What don't I comprehend? Before the cop started the wrestling he had the guy on the ground, not cooperating but not attacking the cop either. At that point he could either try to physically subdue him alone which was gruaranteed to escalate the situation or he could stay that way, not letting him go and wait for back up. If the second option fails and the guy starts assaulting the cop you simply end up with the first possibility, with the guy being on the ground and the cop standing up which gives the cop a bit of advantage. Do you understand what I'm saying? It was either risky wrestling or not letting the guy go, waiting for backup which [I]could [/I]end up in risky wrestling. The second option was safer for the cop and thus for the firefighter because it was possible that the cop wouldn't end up in lethal danger and thus wouldn't have to use the gun. What if there would be 2 of those drunk massive firefighters and the cop somehow successfully threw them to the ground? Would you advocate him wrestling them both too or should he just stop them from leaving and wait for back up? Everything you're saying would be valid if the firefighter wasn't a drunk hulk. The risk of the cop losing the physical struggle was too big imo, he should have stalled.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;44128955]What don't I comprehend? Before the cop started the wrestling he had the guy on the ground, not cooperating but not attacking the cop either. At that point he could either try to physically subdue him alone which was gruaranteed to escalate the situation or he could stay that way, not letting him go and wait for back up. If the second option fails and the guy starts assaulting the cop you simply end up with the first possibility, with the guy being on the ground and the cop standing up which gives the cop a bit of advantage. Do you understand what I'm saying? It was either risky wrestling or not letting the guy go, waiting for backup which [I]could [/I]end up in risky wrestling. The second option was safer for the cop and thus for the firefighter because it was possible that the cop wouldn't end up in lethal danger and thus wouldn't have to use the gun. What if there would be 2 of those drunk massive firefighters and the cop somehow successfully threw them to the ground? Would you advocate him wrestling them both too or should he just stop them from leaving and wait for back up? Everything you're saying would be valid if the firefighter wasn't a drunk hulk. The risk of the cop losing the physical struggle was too big imo, he should have stalled.[/QUOTE] And? He's still a drunk hulk who tried beating him into the pavement, what would've stopped him from continuing to go after the cop?

[QUOTE=AaronM202;44129176]And? He's still a drunk hulk who tried beating him into the pavement, what would've stopped him from continuing to go after the cop?[/QUOTE] What? What do you mean continuing? He wasn't physically attacking the cop until the cop decided to wrestle him. Read my post again you didn't understand what I said at all.

sorry but if you're gonna go and beat up law enforcers don't be surprised when they put bullets in you

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;44129509]What? What do you mean continuing? He wasn't physically attacking the cop until the cop decided to wrestle him. Read my post again you didn't understand what I said at all.[/QUOTE] and the cop began wrestling him because he was resisting and trying to break free. your point?

[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44129894]and the cop began wrestling him because he was resisting and trying to break free. your point?[/QUOTE] this sparks a tantalizing question I'd be curious if we can get a pro-zimmerman/anti-government freedom lovin' type to explain the difference in the two cases here

[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44129894]and the cop began wrestling him because he was resisting and trying to break free. your point?[/QUOTE] I have explained my point in detail here [QUOTE=Silly Sil;44128955]Before the cop started the wrestling he had the guy on the ground, not cooperating but not attacking the cop either. At that point he could either try to physically subdue him alone which was gruaranteed to escalate the situation or he could stay that way, not letting him go and wait for back up. If the second option fails and the guy starts assaulting the cop you simply end up with the first possibility, with the guy being on the ground and the cop standing up which gives the cop a bit of advantage. Do you understand what I'm saying? It was either risky wrestling or not letting the guy go, waiting for backup which could end up in risky wrestling. The second option was safer for the cop and thus for the firefighter because it was possible that the cop wouldn't end up in lethal danger and thus wouldn't have to use the gun. What if there would be 2 of those drunk massive firefighters and the cop somehow successfully threw them to the ground? Would you advocate him wrestling them both too or should he just stop them from leaving and wait for back up? Everything you're saying would be valid if the firefighter wasn't a drunk hulk. The risk of the cop losing the physical struggle was too big imo, he should have stalled.[/QUOTE] But if you want a short version as this one is obviously too long as you ignored it, the point is: if he the cop didn't start the wrestling maybe it wouldn't get to a point where his life was in danger and he had to use lethal force.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;44130174]I have explained my point in detail here But if you want a short version as this one is obviously too long as you ignored it, the point is: if he the cop didn't start the wrestling maybe it wouldn't get to a point where his life was in danger and he had to use lethal force.[/QUOTE] wow thanks for the fantasy explanation of a completely unrealistic situation where you completely ignore the fact that the guy started resisting at 0:38. by the way did i mention i work for the sfpd?

[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130376]wow thanks for the fantasy explanation of a completely unrealistic situation where you completely ignore the fact that the guy started resisting at 0:38. by the way did i mention i work for the sfpd?[/QUOTE] Oh right I forgot that if someone resists getting handcuffed it's 100% certain that he's gonna bash the cops face in in the next minute. Your appeal to authority totally reminded me of that proven fact. I know the guy was resisting it fucking says so in the post you called "fantasy explanation of a completely unrealistic situation". Read what you are replying to. Do you agree or disagree with this statement: if he the cop didn't start the wrestling (and waited for backup, once the firefighter was on the ground, lets say after that 0:38 in the vid) maybe it wouldn't get to a point where his life was in danger and he had to use lethal force.

what's the point in arguing with an armchair lawyer that can't even coherently type what he's trying to convey. [editline]5th March 2014[/editline] p.s. you never acknowledged the guy was resisting arrest in your fantasy "what if" post.

[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130648]what's the point in arguing with an armchair lawyer that can't even coherently type what he's trying to convey.[/QUOTE] Maybe you should start reading my posts, then you would understand what I'm saying. And how am I a lawyer I never said that the cop did something outside his authority? Also nice job at avoiding the question. I'm gonna try this one last time, try to focus this time. Lets start at that 0:38 you were so kind to point out. The guy is resisting getting handcuffed. He's drunk and fucking giant. You have 2 possibilities. Option 1, you attempt to physically subdue him, this is going to escalate things and you might lose the fight and get in lethal danger. Option 2, don't escalate things anymore, wait for backup, stall. Now this one might lead to two possible outcomes. He either doesn't assault the cop before the backup arrives and there won't be a need to use lethal force, or he does assault the cop which just brings you back to option nr 1. Do you understand now? I can't word it any simpler. Option 2 was safer. If there was 2 or 3 guys that you have managed to surprise and knock to the floor you wouldn't be trying to handcuff them all on your own, you'd tell them not to move, keep your gun ready and wait for backup, or would you jump into 3v1 wrestling match? [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130648]p.s. you never acknowledged the guy was resisting arrest in your fantasy "what if" post.[/QUOTE] ps [QUOTE=Silly Sil;44111332]The reason the cop started wrestling him was BECAUSE the guy wouldn't cooperate and let the cop put handcuffs on him.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Silly Sil;44128955]not cooperating but not attacking the cop either[/QUOTE] It's almost like you haven't read what I said but still say stuff like "you can't even coherently type what you are trying to convey."

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;44130752]Maybe you should start reading my posts, then you would understand what I'm saying. And how am I a lawyer I never said that the cop did something outside his authority? Also nice job at avoiding the question. I'm gonna try this one last time, try to focus this time. Lets start at that 0:38 you were so kind to point out. The guy is resisting getting handcuffed. He's drunk and fucking giant. You have 2 possibilities. Option 1, you attempt to physically subdue him, this is going to escalate things and you might lose the fight and get in lethal danger. Option 2, don't escalate things anymore, wait for backup, stall. Now this one might lead to two possible outcomes. He either doesn't assault the cop before the backup arrives and there won't be a need to use lethal force, or he does assault the cop which just brings you back to option nr 1. Do you understand now? I can't word it any simpler. Option 2 was safer. If there was 2 or 3 guys that you have managed to surprise and knock to the floor you wouldn't be trying to handcuff them all on your own, you'd tell them not to move, keep your gun ready and wait for backup, or would you jump into 3v1 wrestling match? ps It's almost like you haven't read what I said but still say stuff like "you can't even coherently type what you are trying to convey."[/QUOTE] and you're not getting it since apparently the situation could have been easily handled considering you weren't there. you keep spouting that the officer has 2 options. no he doesn't. he has one, and that's to subdue the subject. he took it upon himself to handcuff him AFTER HE WAS ALREADY ON THE GROUND, at which point the subject started resisting arrest. now pause. at this moment in time, you expect the officer to start thinking, "hmm, maybe i should call for backup?" you call for backup based on your judgment of whether or not you need the extra hands, and for this case it wasn't necessary considering the guy was already on the ground in a submissive position. must be easy to overthink the situation after the fact without the proper knowledge. [editline]5th March 2014[/editline] congratulations on quoting a DIFFERENT post from the one you initially quoted. way to get your point across of me not knowing how to read dingus. also the second quote doesn't state he's resisting arrest, it's stating that he's doing nothing.

"what did he do?" What a fucking bitch, these fucking bystanders I swear. Just let the man do his job, you are already filming him for christ sake.

[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130808]and you're not getting it since apparently the situation could have been easily handled considering you weren't there.[/QUOTE] Who the fuck said easy? There was no safe way out of this and still doing the job. [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130808]you keep spouting that the officer has 2 options. no he doesn't. he has one, and that's to subdue the subject. [/QUOTE] Okay so if there was 5 people on the ground resisting getting handcuffed you'd advocate he should wrestle them all? [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130808]he took it upon himself to handcuff him after he was already on the ground, at which point the subject started resisting arrest.[/QUOTE] Yes, from the "you're not putting handcuffs on me" the firefighter went "I'm gonna punch your face into the pavement" because of that attempt. All I'm saying is that MAYBE it wouldn't get to that if he waited for backup. [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130808]now pause. at this moment in time, you expect the officer to start thinking, "hmm, maybe i should call for backup?"[/QUOTE] No I expect cops to throw themselves at a mob of angry people because that's his job completely not giving a fuck about their safety. lol If that was a drunk scrawny hipster I wouldn't argue, it would be inconceivable outcome. But that's a drunk hulk you're trying to wrestle the chance of him overpowering the cop was too big. [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130808]you call for backup based on your judgment of whether or not you need the extra hands, and for this case it wasn't necessary considering the guy was already on the ground in a submissive position.[/QUOTE] What the fuck do you mean the assistance wasn't necessary? The cop almost fucking died and had to use lethal force to protect his life. And that "judgment" the cop passed, cost a man his life. [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130808]must be easy to overthink the situation after the fact without the proper knowledge.[/QUOTE] Must be hard typing all that bullshit excuses because you can't look at this objectively as you're taking sides very strongly. You're going "disregard the chance of getting overpowered, must subdue the criminal". That gets people killed, both cops and the ones they are after as things get out of hand as they did here. For the 3rd time. Would you argue the same thing if it was 2-3 firefighters on the ground? No? Why not? [editline]5th March 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130808]congratulations on quoting a DIFFERENT post from the one you initially quoted. way to get your point across of me not knowing how to read dingus.[/QUOTE] You've been replying to this thread for some time dingus. [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130808]also the second quote doesn't state he's resisting arrest, it's stating that he's doing nothing.[/QUOTE] "Not cooperating". What else could it mean, dingus?

it feels like the only way to get through your thick skull is to explain your stupid "what if" fantasy of 5 million firefighters and explain why these 2 situations are nothing alike. first off, read my post. [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130808]you call for backup based on your judgment of whether or not you need the extra hands, and for this case it wasn't necessary considering the guy was already on the ground in a submissive position.[/QUOTE] second, congratulations on not reading [QUOTE=Silly Sil;44130919]No I expect cops to throw themselves at a mob of angry people because that's his job completely not giving a fuck about their safety. lol[/QUOTE] i'm saying this is what YOU'RE saying. third, [QUOTE=Silly Sil;44130919]What the fuck do you mean the assistance wasn't necessary? The cop almost fucking died and had to use lethal force to protect his life. And that "judgment" the cop passed, cost a man his life.[/QUOTE] once again, [b]AFTER THE FACT[/b]. you keep talking as if the officer knew he was going to get his eye socket broken. [editline]5th March 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Silly Sil;44130919]"Not cooperating". What else could it mean, dingus?[/QUOTE] do you also have amnesia? "not cooperating [b]but not attacking[/b]"

[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130981]it feels like the only way to get through your thick skull is to explain your stupid "what if" fantasy of 5 million firefighters and explain why these 2 situations are nothing alike.[/QUOTE] Strawmen are fun. Go ahead explain the difference between 1 and say 2 firefighters. The only difference is in balance of power. That's the point, the cop overestimated his chances and it got into a situation where he could die. [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130981] first off, read my post. [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130808]you call for backup based on your judgment of whether or not you need the extra hands, and for this case it wasn't necessary considering the guy was already on the ground in a submissive position.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE] Like I said above, his judgment was wrong. He thought he could take him alone and it ended up in the cop almost dying. That was exactly his mistake. Again if this was a scrawny hipster I wouldn't question it but it wasn't inconceivable that a drunk hulk is going to overpower you if you try to wrestle him. [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130981]second, congratulations on not reading i'm saying this is what YOU'RE saying.[/QUOTE] It was sarcasm I thought that would be clear after exaggerating so much and adding "lol" at the end. I'll rephrase it, I expect cops not to jump into situations where the chance of them getting into lethal danger is significant. For instance trying to handcuff a drunk aggressive hulk alone. [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130981] third, once again, [B]AFTER THE FACT[/B]. you keep talking as if the officer knew he was going to get his eye socket broken.[/QUOTE] No he only knew that he's up against a drunk hulk. And after 0:38 that he's not going to let get himself handcuffed without a fight. Yes I did expect the cop to go "fuck this might get out of hand if I'll try to overpower him physically" at that point. [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130981]do you also have amnesia? "not cooperating [B]but not attacking[/B]"[/QUOTE] What? What are you even arguing now here? I said that the firefighter didn't attack the cop until he started wrestling him to which you went: "yeah but he resisted at 0:38". And I said, yeah, he resisted getting handcuffed but he wasn't attacking the cop at this point. So I don't know what are you on about here dingus.

at this point you might as well be advocating that all police officers have the ability to stop time and see the outcome of different decisions. [editline]5th March 2014[/editline] because you keep ignoring split decision making, and confusing it with [b]AFTER THE FACT[/b] judgement calls anybody without any experience of knowledge, like you, can make on a forum.

[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44131194]at this point you might as well be advocating that all police officers have the ability to stop time and see the outcome of different decisions.[/QUOTE] I have explained to you numerous times that the outcome was conceivable BEFORE it happened, dingus. I expect cops to do this [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44130808]you call for backup based on your judgment of whether or not you need the extra hands[/QUOTE] And in this case he overestimated his chances. That is all I'm saying. I don't understand how it's still not getting through to you. [editline]5th March 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44131194]because you keep ignoring split decision making, and confusing it with [B]AFTER THE FACT[/B] judgement calls anybody without any experience of knowledge, like you, can make on a forum.[/QUOTE] How the hell is seeing that the guy is fucking huge and aggressive [B]AFTER THE FACT[/B]? And again the appeal to authority. What do you expect me to say? "Yeah the cop didn't overestimate his chances at all, everything went according to plan, I don't know what I'm talking about"? Because it cleary didn't go according to plan, I don't need a training or experience to see that.

a) how is the outcome conceivable before it happened? are you a fucking magician? did the officer magically know that he was going to get grappled and then have his eye socket broken? b) i'm not overestimating anything??? if anything, you're the one that's underestimating his choices by saying he should have called for backup because apparently he knew he was going to get his eye socket broken. c) the guy is not aggressive when he's in a submissive position. he only becomes aggressive when the handcuffs come out. [editline]5th March 2014[/editline] holy fuck you're more delusional than i thought.

[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44131349]a) how is the outcome conceivable before it happened? are you a fucking magician? did the officer magically know that he was going to get grappled and then have his eye socket broken?[/QUOTE] Yay more strawmen. Where the fuck did I say that he should have known that he will get his eye socket broken? I said, the guy is giant and aggressive and that there's a good chance you're not gonna overpower him alone. Is this an irrational assessment? [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44131349]b) i'm not overestimating anything???[/QUOTE] Who said you're overestimating something. I said the cop overestimated himself. Read. [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44131349] if anything, you're the one that's underestimating his choices by saying he should have called for backup because apparently he knew he was going to get his eye socket broken.[/QUOTE] Same strawman again in one post. Already replied to it. [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44131349]c) the guy is not aggressive when he's in a submissive position. he only becomes aggressive when the handcuffs come out.[/QUOTE] The cop intervened when the firefighter was assaulting a taxi driver. But I guess it would be delusional of me to think that would mean he's aggressive, right dingus? [QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44131349]holy fuck you're more delusional than i thought.[/QUOTE] I'm delusional? You are the one saying that there was no way in hell that he could have anticipated that a giant aggressive man will overpower him when he'll be trying to handcuff him alone. We know [I]after the fact [/I]that he overestimated himself, and there was enough information to come to the same conclusion [B]BEFORE THE FACT [/B]when the guy was assaulting the taxi driver, and certainly after 0:38.

Well yeah the video shows the cop already had him on the ground.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;44131448]Yay more strawmen. Where the fuck did I say that he should have known that he will get his eye socket broken? I said, the guy is giant and aggressive and that there's a good chance you're not gonna overpower him alone. Is this an irrational assessment? Who said you're overestimating something. I said the cop overestimated himself. Read. Same strawman again in one post. Already replied to it. The cop intervened when the firefighter was assaulting a taxi driver. But I guess it would be delusional of me to think that would mean he's aggressive, right dingus? I'm delusional? You are the one saying that there was no way in hell that he could have anticipated that a giant aggressive man will overpower him when he'll be trying to handcuff him alone. We know [I]after the fact [/I]that he overestimated himself, and there was enough information to come to the same conclusion [B]BEFORE THE FACT [/B]when the guy was assaulting the taxi driver, and certainly after 0:38.[/QUOTE] You are literally arguing nothing You are wrong, that is all.

[QUOTE=fireball397;44132972]You are literally arguing nothing You are wrong, that is all.[/QUOTE] I'm done. Either there was no way in hell of anticipating that you won't apprehend a beefy, drunk and aggressive guy alone or everything went according to plan. You're right. The cop clearly didn't overestimate his chances or had no indication to expect that this would happen, even tho he had to break a fight between him and a cab driver before the video started.

The firefighter must have been drinking some heavy shit.