[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;36024330]This.
It's even worse when they do that whole 23/24 grams argument and claim it's energy or a soul and not just fucking gases released post mortem.[/QUOTE]
Gas escaping doesn't explain it. However, bad methodology of experiments do.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;36126422]Gas escaping doesn't explain it. However, bad methodology of experiments do.[/QUOTE]
Nah if I remember correctly the experiment was about weighing bodies for a day or two after death and in that time the bodies usually became around 23 grams lighter despite no obvious or apparent change.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_(doctor)[/url]
It's a hilarious read really.
[QUOTE=Sqwerp;36121744]If they do seriously start looking into it then this can negatively reflect upon their academic reputation.[/QUOTE]
No it wouldn't. All scientists want to discover interesting new things and publish them. If a scientist actually managed to prove ghosts existed, imagine the fame they would have. The reason nobody looks seriously into the paranormal is because scientific methodology cannot be used in it.
Can you measure ghosts in any way? Can you prove its not down to natural phenomena that's already well explained? Can you do experiments with them? Can the experiments be repeated? Most importantly, does there exist the ability to prove your theory wrong? (the results of experiments either supporting or discounting a theory)
There's a reason that video won't convince me, and that's because their methodology is shitty.
I have always beleived in ghosts throughout my life. i've always the Epicurean idea that spirits don't have any interest in humans and human affairs. Of course I could be wrong on that part, but, either way I do beleive in ghosts, just that they don't much care about the realm of the living.
[QUOTE=imtehberst;38313391]I have always beleived in ghosts throughout my life. i've always the Epicurean idea that spirits don't have any interest in humans and human affairs. Of course I could be wrong on that part, but, either way I do beleive in ghosts, just that they don't much care about the realm of the living.[/QUOTE]
Why do you believe in them?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38313808]Why do you believe in them?[/QUOTE]
I beleive in them because there could be some pass between the afterlife and our realm, that could allow anything supernatural to come through. It may be becuase they want to see the things that they enjoyed when the were once living, like sunsets and their old households. I beleive that they just want to see these things alone or with other spirits, but they would indeed become frightening and/or hostile to avert any human contact.
[QUOTE=imtehberst;38313842]I beleive in them because there could be some pass between the afterlife and our realm, that could allow anything supernatural to come through. It may be becuase they want to see the things that they enjoyed when the were once living, like sunsets and their old households. I beleive that they just want to see these things alone or with other spirits, but they would indeed become frightening and/or hostile to avert any human contact.[/QUOTE]
I mean why do you think ghosts exist?
Do you have any evidence backing up the existence of ghosts?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38313872]I mean why do you think ghosts exist?
Do you have any evidence backing up the existence of ghosts?[/QUOTE]
Well, not all such legit evidence can actually be proven, but through philosophy, I beleive this idea.
The burden of proof is upon the claimant. You're not gonna be taken seriously by any reasonable person if you go around spouting that ghosts exists without some serious evidence to back it up.
Believing in the existence of ghosts is on par with believing that there are invisible purple elephants walking among us. You can neither prove nor disprove the claim, you can't do anything with it. Discussing it is useless.
[QUOTE=imtehberst;38313907]Well, not all such legit evidence can actually be proven, but through philosophy, I beleive this idea.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and still there remains no compelling reason to believe in ghosts.
A proper index of anything's existence, I feel, is that if it can only be described by a modern person as 'supernatural', it probably does not exist.
First, I shall say that I don't believe in something called [I]ghosts[/I] to which we ascribe certain properties and actions. I do, however, think that there are many unexplained phenomena (even in our everyday lives). But I wouldn't grab an unexplained event and say that it is caused by "ghosts" as a way of explanation. If some of those events you, ghost believers, are telling us about would happen to me, I would say that [U]I honestly have no explanation for that[/U].
For example, considering that I live alone, if some of my underwear would suddenly 'disappear' (or move from the usual place where I put it) and appear in another place folded, I would initially think that I did that without noticing. If it happened to me with some frequency I would start to think that maybe I always do that without noticing, or even something weirder, that it is some kind of 'ritual' of my unconscious mind. That explanation would sound far less-weird to me than inventing some kind of entity I haven't seen and ascribing an action to it.
[QUOTE=imtehberst;38313907]Well, not all such legit evidence can actually be proven, but through philosophy, I beleive this idea.[/QUOTE]
Would you be willing to elaborate on "philosophy"?
[QUOTE=imtehberst;38313907]Well, not all such legit evidence can actually be proven, but through philosophy, I beleive this idea.[/QUOTE]
I can fucking believe that, having studied philosophy, you believe that creating entities from nothing and ascribe them properties like agency is a damn good idea to explain stuff. (Unless, of course, by "ghost" you don't mean what is normally understood as 'ghost', although you would just be stupid for not explicitly stating that.)
[editline]8th November 2012[/editline]
I can imagine that you got some kind of "philosophical proof of the immortality of the soul" that also proves that it can actually interact with physical objects. If you do, please post it. Replying to that will be really funny.
Believing in ghosts is the same as believing in god. Neither have ever been proved to exist, and will never be proved to exist. If you think you've seen a ghost, go and see your doctor immediately.
[QUOTE=Conna;38365931]Believing in ghosts is the same as believing in god. Neither have ever been proved to exist, and will never be proved to exist. If you think you've seen a ghost, go and see your doctor immediately.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. The belief even has the same basic structure:
700 B.C
1. Thunders are known 'to happen'
2. People start asking why they actually happen.
3. They invent an [I]agent[/I] (i.e. "the god of thunder") and ascribe him the power to cause thunder just so they can have an explanation of that event (a very lazy one though).
4. Mythology is created.
TODAY
1. Strange events are know 'to happen.'
2. People start asking why they actually happen, since they cannot easily explain those events with their current knowledge.
3. They invent an [I]agent[/I] ("ghost") and ascribe him/her the power to do whatever it takes to explain the phenomena
4. Ghosts stories are created.
The basic process is fundamentally the same. It is actually a [B]lazy[/B] form of explanation.(Although steps 2 to 3 can be discussed. I really hope someone realizes the problem with steps 2 and 3 in 'TODAY' so we can discuss them.)
I believe in the paranormal.
I Wish I seen this thread alittle earlier because I wrote a research paper over paranormal phenomena like two weeks ago lol.
But i've researched it and many skeptics call people dumb/unintelligent that believe in the paranormal.
Parapsychology is a major aspect, and they may not be able to prove that it is real ghosts or not, but the science that we have today also cannot prove some paranormal events.
More and more people are believing in ghosts. Many scientist call into question the witness's claims on an event and say people blame something not on chance but in what they believe in.
Both sides have valued arguments that can be taken into account when it comes to the paranormal because we do not know what is out there, and even our current science/physics today cannot explain ALL events and just say its not credible due to the source.
[QUOTE=Ricenchicken;38366298][I]Both sides have valued arguments[/I] that can be taken into account when it comes to the paranormal because we do not know what is out there, and even our current [U]science/physics today cannot explain ALL events and just say its not credible due to the source.[/U][/QUOTE]
As I said before, even if those events are not explained by current physics, there needs to be a good enough explanation to really be taken as such. I do not accuse ghost believers to be 'dumb', only lazy.
I think that ghosts are precisely an attempt to explain things that science cannot explain, although a very crappy one. If you ask a person who believes is ghosts what a ghost is they will probably reply with an "I don't know, just mysterious floating things."
[U]If you cannot describe the basic properties of a ghost and his way of functioning (of acting and interacting with objects) then you haven't really explained anything, you just gave a goddamn name to something you can't explain. Why not stop at the "I don't know why this happened"? why to invent ghosts?[/U]
Unexplained phenomenon is not unexplained phenomena.
[QUOTE=Jookia;38366579]Unexplained phenomenon is not unexplained phenomena.[/QUOTE]
What is the difference and why is this relevant to the discussion?
[QUOTE=matsta;38366883]What is the difference and why is this relevant to the discussion?[/QUOTE]
Well I must've been hit with a rock. I meant: "Unexplained phenomenon is not unexplain[b]able[/b] phenomena."
[QUOTE=Ricenchicken;38366298]I believe in the paranormal.
I Wish I seen this thread alittle earlier because I wrote a research paper over paranormal phenomena like two weeks ago lol.
But i've researched it and many skeptics call people dumb/unintelligent that believe in the paranormal.
Parapsychology is a major aspect, and they may not be able to prove that it is real ghosts or not, but the science that we have today also cannot prove some paranormal events.
More and more people are believing in ghosts. Many scientist call into question the witness's claims on an event and say people blame something not on chance but in what they believe in.
Both sides have valued arguments that can be taken into account when it comes to the paranormal because we do not know what is out there, and even our current science/physics today cannot explain ALL events and just say its not credible due to the source.[/QUOTE]
Calling something into question or not being able to explain an event has no bearing on the likelihood of it being a ghost (whatever definition of 'ghost' you may be using). You [I]believing[/I] that some exists on the basis of not being able to explain what it would be otherwise is by no means a good argument.
In such a case, "I don't know what it is" is a far better response and makes less unwarranted assumptions about being able to explain something from the fact that you can't explain it.
Oh wow do we really need a debate on this too..
I bet this is sadly a really debated subject in America
I've never seen a ghost, except computer-generated imagery of ghosts. So they definitely do exist on some level.. I wonder where we got the idea of them anyway.
I don't believe in them, but they do make a good story.
I used to believe in ghosts, but now I don't. I took some pictures at a friend's house that have weird lights on them, and at the time I thought it was ghosts. Now, however, I'm not sure what caused it. Some of it can be explained, like how the shapes are repeated because the exposure was set to 3 seconds at the time, but I still don't know where the lights came from.
I'm sure that if I were more versed in scientific phenomenon, I could explain it, but I no longer believe in ghosts.
Believe whatever you choose to, but spend a night at Fort Henry and try and tell me that there are no such things as ghosts...
People are going to draw stupid conclusions about any weird light they see or noise they hear if they are in a place with a reputation for hauntings.
I firmly believe ghosts are just another product of the human mind, much like many other things.
I'm going to bring up extraterrestrials again. I'll just paraphrase a good point brought up by Neil deGrasse Tyson. Rates of UFO sightings among the amateur astronomy community are lower than that of the general population. That doesn't make any sense considering how often they're looking at the sky. It's pretty clear that people who report flying saucers and such just don't know what they're looking at, and let their imaginations fill in the blanks.
[QUOTE=Uberpro;38370636]Oh wow do we really need a debate on this too..
I bet this is sadly a really debated subject in America[/QUOTE]
what does america have to do with this?
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