• Ghosts and the paranormal
    608 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;38570786]But there is more to existence than what you can see, hear and feel; the whole world around you, the whole vastness of Space around you. And there is always more to life after death: more life.[/QUOTE] We can't hear above 25khz frequencies or see infra-red light and other wavelengths, but I really doubt we have ghost and spirits and shit, it doesn't make sense in addition to having no evidence. It's just some ancient spooky primitive voodoo bullshit made up to help humans cope with the fact that one day they will die.
[QUOTE=Barbarian887;38570822] It's just some ancient spooky primitive voodoo bullshit made up to help humans cope with the fact that one day they will die.[/QUOTE] I am inclined to agree with this.
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;38570786]But there is more to existence than what you can see, hear and feel; the whole world around you, the whole vastness of Space around you. And there is always more to life after death: more life.[/QUOTE] Yet the only way you know those things is through experience. (Or, if you wan't, because those things are in the world [I]in which you live[/I].)
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;38570786]But there is more to existence than what you can see, hear and feel; the whole world around you, the whole vastness of Space around you. And there is always more to life after death: more life.[/QUOTE] But that meaning is nothing more than physical existence. Pretty much everything is here because that's just the way things work, right? Every bit of matter ever, every joule of energy, every thought that I'm thinking right now, exists just 'cause. I'm listening to some music that I enjoy, but I know that in reality its just the neural mapping of my brain that is programmed to respond to specific arrangements of sound frequencies spanned over time by releasing dopamine which in turn changes the neural state of my brain, because that's the way my race serendipitously evolved, because by sheer chance the right mixture of amino acids and nutrients mixed together a while back on a planet that just happened to meet the conditions to support carbon-based life, and orbited around a star that had just the right amount of hydrogen mass to supply a reasonable amount of energy to this reasonably-placed planet [b]BY PURE ACCIDENT.[/b] And that's why I'm religious. Because there IS NO MORE to existence than the whole world around me, the whole vastness of Space around me. ... Sorry; kinda got off topic. So anyways, I find that I still have this nagging fear in the back of my head about ghosts and other similar entities, and I'm not even sure why I'm afraid of them if they're supposedly so goddamn ethereal. And this is going against every rational reassurance my mind can provide itself, that this is the stuff of movies and literature. Been reading too much creepypasta I guess.
Those of you that do not believe in ghosts are most likely basing this opinion off of information that you have. But that doesn't mean that the possibility exists that there is some information that we don't have access to that may explain the supernatural. People used to think that the earth was flat until there was evidence proving that it was round. What's to say that thirty years from now someone discovers a way to quantify and prove the existence of the supernatural? I may not believe in ghosts per-say but I do believe that we could be missing a large amount of information that would explain the human consciousness, soul and related supernatural things. To simply dismiss the fact that it could exists simply because it can't be proved yet is just as ignorant as saying that humans are the only conscious beings in the universe.
[QUOTE=BFG9000;38572289]But that meaning is nothing more than physical existence. Pretty much everything is here because that's just the way things work, right? Every bit of matter ever, every joule of energy, every thought that I'm thinking right now, exists just 'cause. I'm listening to some music that I enjoy, but I know that in reality its just the neural mapping of my brain that is programmed to respond to specific arrangements of sound frequencies spanned over time by releasing dopamine which in turn changes the neural state of my brain, because that's the way my race serendipitously evolved, because by sheer chance the right mixture of amino acids and nutrients mixed together a while back on a planet that just happened to meet the conditions to support carbon-based life, and orbited around a star that had just the right amount of hydrogen mass to supply a reasonable amount of energy to this reasonably-placed planet [b]BY PURE ACCIDENT.[/b] And that's why I'm religious. Because there IS NO MORE to existence than the whole world around me, the whole vastness of Space around me. [/QUOTE] This ancient argument? If the Earth wasn't so perfect for life, then a living being couldn't come into existence to ask why everything is perfect. There's an uncountable number of planets in the observable universe, many likely with life. Humans are very insignificant. Also, I have to ask, does it really make more sense to you that a supreme being outside of our universe arranged everything then to simply admit that it was a result of chance?
I believe there's something we can't explain, maybe we never will. Perhaps they're just imprints of someone who had a great impact. Maybe they want to finish something, or maybe this is their punishment, for their life was their Hell. Or maybe they don't want to think their dead, they want to be here forever, so they will. I'm open-minded with this kind of stuff, and I've had experiences before (I'm sure you all know about my near-death experience in Afghanistan), and there is definitely something strange that we can't explain. At least we all know who to call, right?
[QUOTE=Moustacheman;38584885]I believe there's something we can't explain, maybe we never will. Perhaps they're just imprints of someone who had a great impact. Maybe they want to finish something, or maybe this is their punishment, for their life was their Hell. Or maybe they don't want to think their dead, they want to be here forever, so they will. I'm open-minded with this kind of stuff, and I've had experiences before (I'm sure you all know about my near-death experience in Afghanistan), and there is definitely something strange that we can't explain. At least we all know who to call, right?[/QUOTE] Saying it can't be explained is a stupid way of saying 'I know it's wrong'.
[QUOTE=FoneJack;38570615]I am not a religious person, but I do believe in some kind of afterlife. I know that there is a lot of evidence pointing towards there not being one, but I like to believe that there is more to existence than what we can see, hear and feel. It's more of a hope than anything I guess.[/QUOTE] The only things that exist are matter and energy. Any crank or kook or magician or priest who says otherwise is full of shit. [editline]25th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=reedbo;38578037]Those of you that do not believe in ghosts are most likely basing this opinion off of information that you have.[/QUOTE] Yes, and until somebody comes up with empirical evidence saying "yeah we got ghosts" then we assume that they do not exist. [QUOTE]But that doesn't mean that the possibility exists that there is some information that we don't have access to that may explain the supernatural.[/QUOTE] There is also a possibility that a dildo is buried at the center of Venus, but that doesn't mean we can assume they exist. [QUOTE]People used to think that the earth was flat until there was evidence proving that it was round.[/QUOTE] They did this via scientific methodology. That same methodology yielded nothing for ghosts. [QUOTE]What's to say that thirty years from now someone discovers a way to quantify and prove the existence of the supernatural?[/QUOTE] Let us not assume they exist until somebody does then. [QUOTE]I may not believe in ghosts per-say but I do believe that we could be missing a large amount of information that would explain the human consciousness, soul and related supernatural things. To simply dismiss the fact that it could exists simply because it can't be proved yet is just as ignorant as saying that humans are the only conscious beings in the universe.[/QUOTE] The soul doesn't exist (I sold mine 3 times for monetary gain, at least implying I can multiply my soul, making it worthless). Human consciousness is gradually being deciphered through Psychology, Neuroscience, Biology, Mathematics and Computer Science. We already know how the brain works to a great extent, and we also know that other mammals are quite similar to us to (Dolphins for example). If you had a computer with enough memory and time, you can get it to simulate a conscious human mind.
[QUOTE=Falubii;38584805]This ancient argument? If the Earth wasn't so perfect for life, then a living being couldn't come into existence to ask why everything is perfect. There's an uncountable number of planets in the observable universe, many likely with life. Humans are very insignificant. Also, I have to ask, does it really make more sense to you that a supreme being outside of our universe arranged everything then to simply admit that it was a result of chance?[/QUOTE] Yes but sentient life? we are few and far between. Heck, we don't even know of any other sentient life out there. And I'm not about to "admit" that it was a "result of chance" just so you know. The chances are just so slim that its impossible to believe. Maybe the chances are just as slim for a "supreme being" to exist for you but its my personal belief, and I'm not about to try and prove it. I was just explaining my own reasons for believing it. [editline]25th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Moustacheman;38584885] At least we all know who to call, right?[/QUOTE] GHOSTBUSTERS! [quote] I'm open-minded with this kind of stuff, and I've had experiences before (I'm sure you all know about my near-death experience in Afghanistan), and there is definitely something strange that we can't explain.[/quote] Watch as they try to deconstruct NDEs using Psychology, logic and probability As for the existence of a soul, I think I have a different idea of it than most of you here. To me, it doesn't exactly control anything mind-wise but rather is an "observer" of sorts.
[QUOTE=BFG9000;38596022]Yes but sentient life? we are few and far between. Heck, we don't even know of any other sentient life out there. And I'm not about to "admit" that it was a "result of chance" just so you know. The chances are just so slim that its impossible to believe. Maybe the chances are just as slim for a "supreme being" to exist for you but its my personal belief, and I'm not about to try and prove it. I was just explaining my own reasons for believing it.[/QUOTE] Once you believe in a supereme being it gets even more complicated: what created the supreme being? It's much more simple to just accept chance. And the chances aren't slim as you say. The universe is huge, and it's perfectly acceptable that life exists here and probably elsewhere in space.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38589347]The only things that exist are matter and energy. Any crank or kook or magician or priest who says otherwise is full of shit.[/QUOTE] Nice way to debate. And no, 'matter' and 'energy' are still too abstract. To really get [I]what[/I] exists you have to get rid of all those abstractions.
[QUOTE=KlaseR;38596076]Once you believe in a supereme being it gets even more complicated: what created the supreme being? It's much more simple to just accept chance. And the chances aren't slim as you say. The universe is huge, and it's perfectly acceptable that life exists here and probably elsewhere in space.[/QUOTE] Well hurr durr of course its huge and of course life probably exists in more than one place [quote] we are few and far between [/quote] I can't imagine sentient life elsewhere, though. unless it is in some unfathomable form that we've never imagined here on Earth.
[QUOTE=BFG9000;38596125]Well hurr durr of course its huge and of course life probably exists in more than one place[/QUOTE] then don't say the chances are too slim.
[QUOTE=BFG9000;38596125]I can't imagine sentient life elsewhere, though. unless it is in some unfathomable form that we've never imagined here on Earth.[/QUOTE] There are other sentient creatures on Earth than humans. And I don't see why you believe life evolving to intelligence is so rare. [QUOTE=BFG9000;38596022]And I'm not about to "admit" that it was a "result of chance" just so you know. The chances are just so slim that its impossible to believe. Maybe the chances are just as slim for a "supreme being" to exist for you but its my personal belief, and I'm not about to try and prove it. I was just explaining my own reasons for believing it. [/QUOTE] Actually in my mind it's considerably less likely that there is a supreme being outside of spacetime. [QUOTE=BFG9000;38596022]words[/QUOTE] Also this trashes the argument that there must be a god because of how perfect our world is. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle[/url]
[QUOTE] Yes, and until somebody comes up with empirical evidence saying "yeah we got ghosts" then we assume that they do not exist. [/QUOTE] I'm not saying that we should assume they exist I'm saying that we shouldn't immediately discredit the possibility of their existence simply because we don't currently have evidence proving that they exist. Likewise, we also don't have evidence proving that ghosts don't exist. [QUOTE] There is also a possibility that a dildo is buried at the center of Venus, but that doesn't mean we can assume they exist. [/QUOTE] I'm not saying that we should assume they exist I'm saying that you can't deny their existence unless there is evidence proving that they don't exist. [QUOTE] They did this via scientific methodology. That same methodology yielded nothing for ghosts. [/QUOTE] Using the same knowledge that we currently have, you do realize that the scientific method goes both ways right? [QUOTE] Let us not assume they exist until somebody does then. [/QUOTE] I never said we should assume they exist. [QUOTE] The soul doesn't exist (I sold mine 3 times for monetary gain, at least implying I can multiply my soul, making it worthless). Human consciousness is gradually being deciphered through Psychology, Neuroscience, Biology, Mathematics and Computer Science. We already know how the brain works to a great extent, and we also know that other mammals are quite similar to us to (Dolphins for example). If you had a computer with enough memory and time, you can get it to simulate a conscious human mind. [/QUOTE] I guess I shall restate my point seeing as how you're doing nothing but saying "no ur wrong because evidence" [QUOTE] To simply dismiss the fact that it could exists because it can't be proved yet is just as ignorant as saying that humans are the only conscious beings in the universe. [/QUOTE] [editline]25th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Jookia;38586148]Saying it can't be explained is a stupid way of saying 'I know it's wrong'.[/QUOTE] No it's not, unexplained =/= wrong.
[QUOTE=reedbo;38596818]I'm not saying that we should assume they exist I'm saying that we shouldn't immediately discredit the possibility of their existence simply because we don't currently have evidence proving that they exist. Likewise, we also don't have evidence proving that ghosts don't exist.[/QUOTE] Well until you do have evidence, I can throw it out of the window of mainstream thought until you can actually prove it. [QUOTE]I'm not saying that we should assume they exist I'm saying that you can't deny their existence unless there is evidence proving that they don't exist.[/QUOTE] The problem is that ghosts cannot be testable with scientific methodology (cannot be falsified). If you can't do that, it's a pretty big indicator that its full of shite. [QUOTE]No it's not, unexplained =/= wrong.[/QUOTE] Let us pretend for a moment, that an onion bhaji is at the center of Uranus. Watch. You see what I am saying? There is an onion bhaji at the centre of Uranus. With our present knowledge, we do not know if there is an onion bhaji at the centre of Uranus. Shall we say "it is unexplained for the time being" or shall we happily discard it as nonsense simply because its a meaningless statement?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38597257] Well until you do have evidence, I can throw it out of the window of mainstream thought until you can actually prove it. [/QUOTE] Then that makes you close-minded. [QUOTE] The problem is that ghosts cannot be testable with scientific methodology (cannot be falsified). If you can't do that, it's a pretty big indicator that its full of shite. [/QUOTE] No it isn't, it's simply unexplained or unproven. By using your argument I could claim that nothing actually exists until I myself deem that it does through 'proof'. Things only gain credibility if you lend them credibility. [QUOTE] Let us pretend for a moment, that an onion bhaji is at the center of Uranus. Watch. You see what I am saying? There is an onion bhaji at the centre of Uranus. With our present knowledge, we do not know if there is an onion bhaji at the centre of Uranus. Shall we say "it is unexplained for the time being" or shall we happily discard it as nonsense simply because its a meaningless statement?[/QUOTE] Now you're being ridiculous. There's plenty of personal experiences that lend people to believe that ghosts and the paranormal exist, simply outright calling it bullshit makes you close-minded. Instead of calling it nonsense leave it as an open possibility, if the supernatural is just that then would the rules of the natural sciences not apply the same way? Also, how about you stop ignoring my previous statement. If you claim: "If it can't be falsified then it's full of shite," then would you insist that humans are the only conscious beings in the universe?
[QUOTE]Now you're being ridiculous. There's plenty of personal experiences that lend people to believe that ghosts and the paranormal exist, simply outright calling it bullshit makes you close-minded. Instead of calling it nonsense leave it as an open possibility, if the supernatural is just that then would the rules of the natural sciences not apply the same way?[/QUOTE] Those personal experiences have since been explained. Those experiences were down to natural events, and not the supernatural. Find me [b]one[/b] thing that is supernatural and we cannot explain. [QUOTE]Also, how about you stop ignoring my previous statement that. If you claim: "If it can't be falsified then it's full of shite," then would you insist that humans are the only conscious beings in the universe?[/QUOTE] no we have dolphins too There is an onion bhaji at the centre of Uranus, just it's unproven yet.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38597603]Those personal experiences have since been explained. Those experiences were down to natural events, and not the supernatural. Find me [b]one[/b] thing that is supernatural and we cannot explain. no we have dolphins too There is an onion bhaji at the centre of Uranus, just it's unproven yet.[/QUOTE] We aren't getting anywhere in this argument because you don't argue philosophically only scientifically. Sorry but there is no point discussing anything if you're just going to refute it based on "It can't be proven". You can't quantify something that has been unproven so there is no point in applying you "scientific thought". This is more like arguing undetermination more than anything. I'll come back once you decide to stop discussing from a close-minded view point. Science is not meant to prove anything as the truth and by insisting that the supernatural doesn't exist your claiming the opposite is true.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38597257]There is an onion bhaji at the centre of Uranus. With our present knowledge, we do not know if there is an onion bhaji at the centre of Uranus. Shall we say "it is unexplained for the time being" or shall we happily discard it as nonsense simply because its a meaningless statement?[/QUOTE] Ok, I think you're confusing [I]meaningless[/I] with [I]unverifiable[/I]. I can understand what "There is an onion bhaji at the centre of Uranus" means, though I can't find verify that statement. If you're going to argue Vienna-circle-like, you should at least know the difference between them. Reedbo is actually right in saying that you can't deny the existence of something that is unverifiable. But, then, that doesn't mean that we can't find the hypothesis unfounded or simply not reasonable. Overall ghosts are almost never the best explanation for strange phenomena.
[QUOTE=reedbo;38597746]Science is not meant to prove anything as the truth and by insisting that the supernatural doesn't exist your claiming the opposite is true.[/QUOTE] Science does the next best thing (which is to disprove something). I stand with centuries of scientific knowledge and I couldn't give a ha’penny jizz. Fact is that the concept of supernatural in itself cannot be falsified, and therefore cannot be subject to usual scientific methodology. If you can't make a statement that can be proven wrong, most of your views are worthless. [editline]26th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=matsta;38597922]Reedbo is actually right in saying that you can't deny the existence of something that is unverifiable.[/QUOTE] Yes you can.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38597946][QUOTE=I]Reedbo is actually right in saying that you can't deny the existence of something that is unverifiable.[/QUOTE]Yes you can.[/QUOTE] Sorry, what I meat to say is that you can't prove a fact to be "not true" by saying it is unverifiable.
[QUOTE=matsta;38597999]Sorry, what I meat to say is that you can't prove a fact to be "not true" by saying it is unverifiable.[/QUOTE] Well if you can't verify it, it's not true.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38598043]Well if you can't verify it, it's not true.[/QUOTE] You can't say the statement is "not true" because you would be saying it is false and by saying that you claim to know the truth-value of the statement when you just declared that you can't verify it.
[QUOTE=matsta;38598058]You can't say the statement is "not true" because you would be saying it is false and by saying that you claim to know the truth-value of the statement when you just declared that you can't verify it.[/QUOTE] You need evidence to back up your statement. If no evidence can be collected to back it up, the statement has no value until you get some kind of empirical evidence.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38598099]You need evidence to back up your statement. If no evidence can be collected to back it up, the statement has no value until you get some kind of empirical evidence.[/QUOTE] this also means that it can't be regarded as "false" because [I]"false" is a truth-value[/I].
[QUOTE=reedbo;38596818]No it's not, unexplained =/= wrong.[/QUOTE] Saying it [b]can't[/b] be explained is another way of saying 'don't attack my fragile belief system'. [QUOTE=matsta;38598112]this also means that it can't be regarded as "false" because [I]"false" is a truth-value[/I].[/QUOTE] If a boolean is referenced and nobody's around to define it, is it true or false?
[QUOTE=Jookia;38598174]Saying it [b]can't[/b] be explained is another way of saying 'don't attack my fragile belief system'. If a boolean is referenced and nobody's around to define it, is it true or false?[/QUOTE] For the record, I don't believe in ghosts nor the supernatural as I have no experience leading me to believe in it. However I do feel that it's quite silly and illogical to say that there is no possibility, with 100% certainty, that the supernatural exists. It just shows that you are close-minded to the FACT that there is knowledge that we don't currently have.
[QUOTE=reedbo;38601614]For the record, I don't believe in ghosts nor the supernatural as I have no experience leading me to believe in it. However I do feel that it's quite silly and illogical to say that there is no possibility, with 100% certainty, that the supernatural exists. It just shows that you are close-minded to the FACT that there is knowledge that we don't currently have.[/QUOTE] It's not illogical at all. If it isn't falsifiable, that's a pretty clear indication you are making shit up. Ghosts for some reason tend to "sentient" despite lacking a brain, and for some reason if they can pass through things, how come they are not pulled down by gravity? (or better yet, if they can't affect the physical world, then how do photons bounce off them in such a way so as to allow humans to see them?)
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