• Ghosts and the paranormal
    608 replies, posted
[QUOTE=reedbo;38601614]For the record, I don't believe in ghosts nor the supernatural as I have no experience leading me to believe in it. However I do feel that it's quite silly and illogical to say that there is no possibility, with 100% certainty, that the supernatural exists. It just shows that you are close-minded to the FACT that there is knowledge that we don't currently have.[/QUOTE] I'll gladly change my mind in believing magic is bullshit when someone actually proves to me it isn't bullshit.Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, I'm gonna continue believing the scientific consensus that parapsychology is total bunk until the day someone goes "Oh wait, we've got it all wrong!" and actually proves ghosts and telepathy exists.So sorry there're folks out there that are skeptical about things that have no real basis in reality as we see it. If there's someone out there that can prove it, well hot damn we'll gladly change our minds.
[QUOTE=reedbo;38597546] No it isn't, it's simply unexplained or unproven. By using your argument I could claim that nothing actually exists until I myself deem that it does through 'proof'. Things only gain credibility if you lend them credibility. [/QUOTE] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWJTUAezxAI[/media] [editline]26th November 2012[/editline] The point is, even though "there is always a chance", that chance may very. If it's sufficiently low enough, then there's no real reason to bother with it. Did you know that if you throw an ice cube at the sun, there's a chance it will get colder? It's a very, very, [b]very[/b] low chance, but the laws of thermodynamics don't forbid that kind of situation from happening. However, believing that throwing ice at the sun might make it colder is nonsensical in the practical sense because of the low probability of such an occasion happening. In our case, Ghosts have so many inconsistencies with the known laws of physics that the chance of them existing, let alone manipulating anything, is low. Therefor, strongly believing in ghosts is nonsensical.
[QUOTE=reedbo;38601614]For the record, I don't believe in ghosts nor the supernatural as I have no experience leading me to believe in it. However I do feel that it's quite silly and illogical to say that there is no possibility, with 100% certainty, that the supernatural exists.[/QUOTE] Please read what my posts say before stating that I said anything about the existence of ghosts, how likely or unlikely they are, or if the supernatural exists. [QUOTE=reedbo;38601614]It just shows that you are close-minded to the FACT that there is knowledge that we don't currently have.[/QUOTE] It's a FACT that there's knowledge we don't currently have? Well, can you show me that we don't know everything?
[QUOTE=Glorbo;38602554] [editline]26th November 2012[/editline] The point is, even though "there is always a chance", that chance may very. If it's sufficiently low enough, then there's no real reason to bother with it. Did you know that if you throw an ice cube at the sun, there's a chance it will get colder? It's a very, very, [B]very[/B] low chance, but the laws of thermodynamics don't forbid that kind of situation from happening. However, believing that throwing ice at the sun might make it colder is nonsensical in the practical sense because of the low probability of such an occasion happening. In our case, Ghosts have so many inconsistencies with the known laws of physics that the chance of them existing, let alone manipulating anything, is low. Therefor, strongly believing in ghosts is nonsensical.[/QUOTE] James Randi is great. But I'm not asking anyone to prove that ghosts don't exist I'm simply trying to state that the assumption that they don't exist is solely on the information and knowledge that we currently understand. Scientists are learning more and more about our universe every day, learning things that they before assumed did not exist. The beautiful thing about the scientific method is that if a hypothesis is proven wrong it is either thrown out or revised. Do ghosts exists is not a scientific hypothesis so applying the scientific method is only going to result in poor results or one answer. This whole thread was created so you guys could circle jerk and show off you knowledge of 'science' when people can't 'prove' that ghosts exist. I myself am skeptical about ghosts and the supernatural but I'm not saying with 100% certainty that they do not exist nor am I saying that they do exist. [editline]26th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Jookia;38602875]Please read what my posts say before stating that I said anything about the existence of ghosts, how likely or unlikely they are, or if the supernatural exists. It's a FACT that there's knowledge we don't currently have? Well, can you show me that we don't know everything?[/QUOTE] If you're seriously asking that question then why should I even bother arguing with you? [editline]26th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Levithan;38601749]I'll gladly change my mind in believing magic is bullshit when someone actually proves to me it isn't bullshit.Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, I'm gonna continue believing the scientific consensus that parapsychology is total bunk until the day someone goes "Oh wait, we've got it all wrong!" and actually proves ghosts and telepathy exists.So sorry there're folks out there that are skeptical about things that have no real basis in reality as we see it. If there's someone out there that can prove it, well hot damn we'll gladly change our minds.[/QUOTE] As will I. I don't see how you people think that I'm on the other side of the fence. I totally agree. I'll assume they don't exist until proven otherwise but I'm not going to assume that they will never be proven simply because they can't be explained currently.
[QUOTE=reedbo;38604510]Do ghosts exists is not a scientific hypothesis so applying the scientific method is only going to result in poor results or one answer.[/quote] it is a completely legitimate scientific hypothesis, in the same way that "does the higgs boson exist" is a scientific hypothesis. [quote]This whole thread was created so you guys could circle jerk and show off you knowledge of 'science' when people can't 'prove' that ghosts exist. I myself am skeptical about ghosts and the supernatural but I'm not saying with 100% certainty that they do not exist nor am I saying that they do exist.[/quote] but why even privilege such a hypothesis? why bring it to your attention when the prior probability is so low? ghosts are on the same level as the international jewish conspiracy, flying saucers and the state of idaho - they're all exceedingly unlikely.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;38604635]it is a completely legitimate scientific hypothesis, in the same way that "does the higgs boson exist" is a scientific hypothesis. but why even privilege such a hypothesis? why bring it to your attention when the prior probability is so low? ghosts are on the same level as the international jewish conspiracy, flying saucers and the state of idaho - they're all exceedingly unlikely.[/QUOTE] Exceedingly unlikely based on our current understanding.
[QUOTE=reedbo;38604660]Exceedingly unlikely based on our current understanding.[/QUOTE] read E. T. Jaynes' discussion of probability where he uses telepathy as a case study, it should clear up some of the confusion.
There is no evidence that is repeatable or can stand up to criticism that explains or proves that ghosts and/or other paranormal/supernatural things actually exist.
[QUOTE=Jookia;38598174]If a boolean is referenced and nobody's around to define it, is it true or false?[/QUOTE] It isn't. [editline]26th November 2012[/editline] Also, not talking about variables, but about statements. [editline]26th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=bisousbisous;38605490]There is no evidence that is repeatable or can stand up to criticism that explains or proves that ghosts and/or other paranormal/supernatural things actually exist.[/QUOTE] This. I don't know why it's not enough for some people to say that [I]there is no evidence[/I], they must say that ghosts [I]don't exist[/I], as if they knew for sure. And don't take me wrong, I think ghosts probably do not exist but if you ask me I would say "I don't know, but I don't have any reason to believe so."
[QUOTE=reedbo;38604510]If you're seriously asking that question then why should I even bother arguing with you?[/QUOTE] Sorry my bad, I thought that if you said something was a fact then I'd be able to ask for the source of the fact or something. [QUOTE=matsta;38607135]It isn't. [editline]26th November 2012[/editline] Also, not talking about variables, but about statements.[/QUOTE] I'm talking about the default stance on a subject with no evidence.
[QUOTE=BFG9000;38572289]But that meaning is nothing more than physical existence. Pretty much everything is here because that's just the way things work, right? Every bit of matter ever, every joule of energy, every thought that I'm thinking right now, exists just 'cause. I'm listening to some music that I enjoy, but I know that in reality its just the neural mapping of my brain that is programmed to respond to specific arrangements of sound frequencies spanned over time by releasing dopamine which in turn changes the neural state of my brain, because that's the way my race serendipitously evolved, because by sheer chance the right mixture of amino acids and nutrients mixed together a while back on a planet that just happened to meet the conditions to support carbon-based life, and orbited around a star that had just the right amount of hydrogen mass to supply a reasonable amount of energy to this reasonably-placed planet [b]BY PURE ACCIDENT.[/b] And that's why I'm religious. Because there IS NO MORE to existence than the whole world around me, the whole vastness of Space around me.[/QUOTE] Nothing more than physical existence? I would say physical existence is all there is. What other existences do you know of? And what you said about biology is true. It gets very complicated when you zoom in enough with a microscope, it's almost like you enter some new existence. But anyway, even the things that we cannot see or detect that easily are still there, even right next to us, or inside of us. Radiation, or extremely small but vital cell-organs, or low-frequency sounds, they are all still there, real-time. Even on the other side of the Universe as we speak. [editline]27th November 2012[/editline] I mean, that's our existence alright. What we humans have made out of our planet is a totally different matter, but still part of.. existence, so far. [editline]27th November 2012[/editline] Oh shit this has literally 0% to do with ghosts.
[QUOTE=Jookia;38609680]Sorry my bad, I thought that if you said something was a fact then I'd be able to ask for the source of the fact or something. I'm talking about the default stance on a subject with no evidence.[/QUOTE] Because if you don't understand why it's a fact that we don't know every bit of information about everything then there's no point in trying to explain it to you.
[QUOTE=reedbo;38604660]Exceedingly unlikely based on our current understanding.[/QUOTE] Yeah, but I don't have the time and capability (and frankly, im not bothered) to consider [b]everything[/b]. It's easier to assume something is 100% not true when it's sufficiently low enough, just like it's OK to say no current runs through an electrical circuit when you turn it off- In reality, a very very small current still exists, but it's so low that t's easier to ignore it and say it isn't there than to acknowledged it and change your life accordingly.
[QUOTE=reedbo;38613310]Because if you don't understand why it's a fact that we don't know every bit of information about everything then there's no point in trying to explain it to you.[/QUOTE] Are you saying it's impossible to know everything at a point in time?
[QUOTE=Jookia;38616569]Are you saying it's impossible to know everything at a point in time?[/QUOTE] No. It's physically impossible for you and I to know everything. Based on the condition that we are constantly learning something new every day makes it pretty obvious that we currently don't know everything.
[QUOTE=reedbo;38617412]No. It's physically impossible for you and I to know everything.[/QUOTE] Assuming we're talking about humanity rather than individual humans, can I have a source on this? [QUOTE=reedbo;38617412]Based on the condition that we are constantly learning something new every day makes it pretty obvious that we currently don't know everything.[/QUOTE] I don't say we know everything, I'm saying that you're assuming we can't. Not that we won't, but we [b]can't[/b], and that it's a [b]fact[/b].
[QUOTE=Jookia;38617605]Assuming we're talking about humanity rather than individual humans, can I have a source on this? I don't say we know everything, I'm saying that you're assuming we can't. Not that we won't, but we [b]can't[/b], and that it's a [b]fact[/b].[/QUOTE] It's a fact that we [B]currently[/B] don't know everything. I'm not saying that it's impossible that in the future humanity will have figured everything out. Anyways, does your argument over my semantics have any play to this already hard to argue topic?
"Bigfoot" DNA found. I'm sure folks from godlikeproductions will be all over this.
[QUOTE=reedbo;38619382]Anyways, does your argument over my semantics have any play to this already hard to argue topic?[/QUOTE] Well pretty much saying 'we don't know everything' doesn't mean you can cram ideas in to the spaces.
[QUOTE=Jookia;38622553]Well pretty much saying 'we don't know everything' doesn't mean you can cram ideas in to the spaces.[/QUOTE] It also means that you can't tout your opinion that something doesn't exist when there is no definitive proof that it does and doesn't exist. Just because it can't be explained doesn't make it nonexistent.
Im not going to say that they do or don't exist. What I will say is that while people believe it might aswell be true. 2000 years ago people believed the earth was flat. 2000 Years ago people believed that the earth was the center of the universe. People believing made things true. Until someone comes along and says something that we all can believe then it will remain a mystery.
[QUOTE=reedbo;38627657]It also means that you can't tout your opinion that something doesn't exist when there is no definitive proof that it does and doesn't exist. Just because it can't be explained doesn't make it nonexistent.[/QUOTE] It does, however, mean that there is no reason to assume it exists. [editline]28th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=mrx5001;38629209]Im not going to say that they do or don't exist. What I will say is that while people believe it might aswell be true. 2000 years ago people believed the earth was flat. 2000 Years ago people believed that the earth was the center of the universe. People believing made things true. Until someone comes along and says something that we all can believe then it will remain a mystery.[/QUOTE] 2000 years ago people believed in ghosts. Then we discovered the physics of the world around us and saw that there was nothing to indicate that ghosts exist. Or that is is even plausible that they exist. That's something we can all believe, isn't it?
I mean something final. Something that everyone can believe because people out there still believe in paranormal things. Something that can explain the bumps and knocks in the night. Something that can make people who do believe in ghosts stop believing.
[QUOTE=Chrille;38629613]It does, however, mean that there is no reason to assume it exists. [editline]28th November 2012[/editline] 2000 years ago people believed in ghosts. Then we discovered the physics of the world around us and saw that there was nothing to indicate that ghosts exist. Or that is is even plausible that they exist. That's something we can all believe, isn't it?[/QUOTE] Which is exactly why I don't currently believe in ghosts. There's a big difference in saying "I don't believe in something but maybe it could exist" and "I don't believe in something but there's no way it could exist". Especially for something that can't be proven nor disproved such as ghosts.
[QUOTE=reedbo;38627657]Just because it can't be explained doesn't make it nonexistent.[/QUOTE] Name me one thing that can't be explained.
[QUOTE=Jookia;38631443]Name me one thing that can't be explained.[/QUOTE] The Universe.
[QUOTE=Jookia;38631443]Name me one thing that can't be explained.[/QUOTE] When began time? ,Where does the universe end? ,how did everything begin and what was before that?
[QUOTE=Chrille;38629613]2000 years ago people believed in ghosts. Then we discovered the physics of the world around us and saw that there was nothing to indicate that ghosts exist. Or that is is even plausible that they exist. That's something we can all believe, isn't it?[/QUOTE] That's quite the generalization you have there, "2000 years ago people believed in ghosts." (Almost like as if some dumb fucks today didn't?) 2000 years ago not everyone believed in ghosts. When you live your life without witnessing a single sight of a ghost or a god or something, while having your mind occupied the whole time by a whole bunch of other things like daily routines involving carrying water, baking bread, et cet., ghosts wouldn't even come to your mind. Especially seeing after you've lived long enough without ever actually witnessing a ghost, only in the form of rumors.. or scary sounds in the night or instinctive fear.
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;38636209]That's quite the generalization you have there, "2000 years ago people believed in ghosts." (Almost like as if some dumb fucks today didn't?) 2000 years ago not everyone believed in ghosts. When you live your life without witnessing a single sight of a ghost or a god or something, while having your mind occupied the whole time by a whole bunch of other things like daily routines involving carrying water, baking bread, et cet., ghosts wouldn't even come to your mind. Especially seeing after you've lived long enough without ever actually witnessing a ghost, only in the form of rumors.. or scary sounds in the night or instinctive fear.[/QUOTE] I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say, but I'm sure that you missed my point.
[QUOTE=SteenRNS;38635941]When began time? ,Where does the universe end? ,how did everything begin and what was before that?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=reedbo;38631950]The Universe.[/QUOTE] Why can't we explain these things?
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