You can't use "there are some things you can't measure using Science" as a point for paranormal events, if you can't measure it, it can't have an effect you.
[QUOTE=Errorproxy;35337842]Dang how long did you guys live there.[/QUOTE]
Too long at least 6 years.
I still live next to it it's in my back yard.
Zero scientific proof. Really the bottom line.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;35332292]in a sane world, alarm bells would be ringing in your head[/QUOTE]
Every time I see a debate thread this guy shows up calling people insane and saying everyone is wrong
[QUOTE=sirpopsalot_;35339928]Every time I see a debate thread this guy shows up calling people insane and saying everyone is wrong[/QUOTE]
The collected evidence and knowledge we have supports his view though.
There are no ghosts. It is a fairy tale.
I saw a ghost once but upon closer inspection it was just the boring old skeleton popping out of my closet.
However there was that news report a few years ago of a white man figure walking through King Henry's exhibition security camera and pissing the pants of the guards there
[QUOTE=Sir Drone;35340926]I saw a ghost once but upon closer inspection it was just the boring old skeleton popping out of my closet.
However there was that news report a few years ago of a white man figure walking through King Henry's exhibition security camera and pissing the pants of the guards there[/QUOTE]
Did one guard see it initially, or all at once? If one guard initially, then most likely that guard thought something was a ghost and told their peers. Their peers would then be on the lookout for "Ghost like entities" that could actually be a faulty camera.
Also personal experiences don't really mean much. That person most likely saw their own shadow and got scared in the process.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;35340954]Did one guard see it initially, or all at once? If one guard initially, then most likely that guard thought something was a ghost and told their peers. Their peers would then be on the lookout for "Ghost like entities" that could actually be a faulty camera.
Also personal experiences don't really mean much. That person most likely saw their own shadow and got scared in the process.[/QUOTE]
No it was recorded on footage and most of the guards saw it before hi-tailing out of there. Don't believe it one bit but I found it interesting that something must of happened to trigger those camera's to be faulty
[QUOTE=Sir Drone;35341734]No it was recorded on footage and most of the guards saw it before hi-tailing out of there. Don't believe it one bit but I found it interesting that something must of happened to trigger those camera's to be faulty[/QUOTE]
Well sometimes cameras pick up signals from other locations that will interfere with them. Often they produce random nonsense that the human brain will end up detecting a pattern or familiarity of some kind in it and attributing it to something such as a ghost/demon/jesus.
By the way, on a semi-unrelated note I find people who pretend to speak to the dead (Or live past lives or talk about channeling) to be usually full of shite. I find it amusing how often they choose to be involved with famous people when doing such. (Especially Cleopatra for some reason, who has been claimed to be at least 30 peoples past lives.)
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;35342193]Well sometimes cameras pick up signals from other locations that will interfere with them. Often they produce random nonsense that the human brain will end up detecting a pattern or familiarity of some kind in it and attributing it to something such as a ghost/demon/jesus.
By the way, on a semi-unrelated note I find people who pretend to speak to the dead (Or live past lives or talk about channeling) to be usually full of shite. I find it amusing how often they choose to be involved with famous people when doing such. (Especially Cleopatra for some reason, who has been claimed to be at least 30 peoples past lives.)[/QUOTE]
Usually full of shit? Please do elaborate on the ones that actually speak to the dead :v:
Once I farted so loud it woke my dog and then he was scared because he probably must've thought it was a ghost or somethtng.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("This is not debating - Read the rules sticky." - Megafan))[/highlight]
I sort of think they exist...
Friend of mine works at a Sharper Image store, and a woman bought there an alarm clock. Days later, she came back saying the clock was broken because when it got to midnight, it would go to 1am instead.
So instead of going from 23:59 to 00:00, it would go to 1:00.
They tried it at the store, and it seemed to work fine, at midnight switching to 00:00 as usual. She tooked it home again, except she came back with the same problem.
They gave her a new alarm clock, different brand, and kept the old one, which again, at the store, worked just fine.
Guess what, she came back again with the second brand new alarm clock claiming it had the exact same problem as the other...
I don't know what to think about this, but my friend sort of thinks theres something spooky around all of this. I have no idea of what to think.
While he was at this, the guy working with him also told him a story of how he was going upstairs to his apartment at night, and he suddenly saw a shadow go up the stairs.
There was no one but him there at the moment, and the shadow just kept moving. It eventually passed by him up the stairs, without him knowing what caused the shadow to even be.
I don't like thinking about this stuff because then I can't help to think I'll be on bed closing my eyes to fall asleep and then open my eyes for some reason and see something on top of me or by my sides or anywhere near me looking at me all "ghosty", or something screaming at me while I try to sleep, and as I write this, I fear that this will happen to me today or some other day just for writting it, and now that I said this, its sure to happen... :tinfoil:
But I really think theres something else... Alot of stuff like that has happened without any explanation. This is sort of a weird answer for that stuff, but... It fits...
[QUOTE=Chrille;35342749]Usually full of shit? Please do elaborate on the ones that actually speak to the dead :v:[/QUOTE]
Well I divide them into two groups, the ones who talk shit (The cranks and frauds.)
The second group whom I refer to are the ones who have a mental disorder.
[QUOTE=dass;35343283]I sort of think they exist...
Friend of mine works at a Sharper Image store, and a woman bought there an alarm clock. Days later, she came back saying the clock was broken because when it got to midnight, it would go to 1am instead.
So instead of going from 23:59 to 00:00, it would go to 1:00.
They tried it at the store, and it seemed to work fine, at midnight switching to 00:00 as usual. She tooked it home again, except she came back with the same problem.
They gave her a new alarm clock, different brand, and kept the old one, which again, at the store, worked just fine.
Guess what, she came back again with the second brand new alarm clock claiming it had the exact same problem as the other...
[/QUOTE]
Sounds like she did not know how to operate a clock. It could have been switching to another hour automatically due to daylight savings.
[QUOTE=dass;35343283]
I don't know what to think about this, but my friend sort of thinks theres something spooky around all of this. I have no idea of what to think.
While he was at this, the guy working with him also told him a story of how he was going upstairs to his apartment at night, and he suddenly saw a shadow go up the stairs.
There was no one but him there at the moment, and the shadow just kept moving. It eventually passed by him up the stairs, without him knowing what caused the shadow to even be.
I don't like thinking about this stuff because then I can't help to think I'll be on bed closing my eyes to fall asleep and then open my eyes for some reason and see something on top of me or by my sides or anywhere near me looking at me all "ghosty", or something screaming at me while I try to sleep, and as I write this, I fear that this will happen to me today or some other day just for writting it, and now that I said this, its sure to happen... :tinfoil:
But I really think theres something else... Alot of stuff like that has happened without any explanation. This is sort of a weird answer for that stuff, but... It fits...[/QUOTE]
Try to face the issue head on with a clear and rational mind. Humans naturally are much weaker and defenceless in the dark, a fact established by our poor night eyesight and lack of other senses when out at night. When humans were on the run from wild animals, any tiny sound or flicker of light in the corner of the eye made humans keep aware something could possibly be around. This self defence mechanism is still with us today.
When we started to farm, and wild animals gradually got eradicated or domesticated by us, the number of wild creatures to worry about diminished. You know that in a household it is impossible for a rabid dog to be in there. So naturally humans assumed other entities were following them. Werewolves for example were created by a scared human mind that probably mixed up a human and a wolf at some stage.
Ghosts are no exception, for oddly enough at around the same time humans began to farm for a living, they buried their dead under the floors of their houses and put the skull on a rock nearby with decoration. Given that they worshipped these as a proto-religion, it is not a far stretch to say that these spiritual entities eventually evolved into the modern idea of a ghost.
There is only one way to rid the world of "Ghosts". All you have to do is simply stop believing in them and convince others to do so as well. Once everybody stops believing in ghosts, the idea will die the death it was meant to centuries ago.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;35337328]
I had an experience. I can't explain it, other than it happened.[/QUOTE]
I can't explain how a car engine works, but that doesn't mean it's run by ghosts.
Just accept that you can't explain it and don't make up extremely unrealistic explanations.
While I remain mostly undecided, I refuse to write ghosts off as an impossibility.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;35328026]Whilst ghosts have been well documented throughout history, so has stories of fire breathing dragons or one eyed giants. Many cases can be ascribed to many fascinating mental illness- I mean insights into the supernatural.[/Quote]
Dragons and giants have been mentioned throughout history, but not in the sense that they have been widely sighted. Ghosts, on the other hand, have been widely reported throughout history (that includes up to modern day).
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;35328026]Sleep paralysis is something well understood and documented now, along with seeing things out the corner of the eye, hallucinations, paranoia, ailments such as Ergotism (This causing hallucinations due to poisioning from various grain products infected with [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claviceps_purpurea[/url] ) In the past however, these were not yet well understood. Often they were attributed to anything from ghosts to the devil.[/QUOTE]
This is a point I was making in another thread that a certain someone failed to grasp... Things which can initially seem unexplicable at present can become explicable in the future when I greater understanding is achieved. This is precisely why I do not dismiss all ghost sightings off-hand.
[QUOTE=David29;35343863]While I remain mostly undecided, I refuse to write ghosts off as an impossibility.
Dragons and giants have been mentioned throughout history, but not in the sense that they have been widely sighted. Ghosts, on the other hand, have been widely reported throughout history (that includes up to modern day).
This is a point I was making in another thread that a certain someone failed to grasp... Things which can initially seem unexplicable at present can become explicable in the future when I greater understanding is achieved. This is precisely why I do not dismiss all ghost sightings off-hand.[/QUOTE]
No, what you are failing to understand is that "Ghosts" in the past were inexplicable. However with proper research and a look into the matter, in modern times we have more or less explained it.
Mediums do cold reading. Dragons are the misidentified remains of prehistoric animals. Ghosts are down to hallucinations and wishful thinking.
Seriously, the people who spend their time ignoring the scientific method and coming to conclusions before even looking rationally at the matter are helping to perpetuate this madness and are wasting their time. The more rational people in the world the better. We can sort out nonsense from the truth.
[QUOTE=David29;35343863]This is a point I was making in another thread that a certain someone failed to grasp... Things which can initially seem unexplicable at present can become explicable in the future when I greater understanding is achieved. This is precisely why I do not dismiss all ghost sightings off-hand.[/QUOTE]
Except you're comparing the electrical signals in your brain maintaining sentience without the organic counterpart and flying through space unaffected by laws of nature with stuff like the Higgs-Boson. I don't dismiss ghost sightings as lies, because they're perfect examples of the susceptibility of the human mind when it comes to thing like hallucinations and optical illusions.
One time when i was a kid, there was an old abandoned shack and car in the woods where i lived, i was messing around until the abandoned car revved up. I ran for home. never went back.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;35343925]Ghosts are down to hallucinations and wishful thinking.[/QUOTE]
That's an easy thing to say from an observers perspective - like how epilepsy used to be simply discarded as 'retardation' because it couldn't be fully explained.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;35343925]Seriously, the people who spend their time ignoring the scientific method and coming to conclusions before even looking rationally at the matter are helping to perpetuate this madness and are wasting their time. The more rational people in the world the better. We can sort out nonsense from the truth.[/QUOTE]
Again, missing what I said. Scientific theories are not always correct at the time they are made. New discoveries can come along and comepletely tip an existing idea on its head. Einstein is renowned for his scientific genious, but made a huge blunder with his 'static universe' theory, which was eventually proven incorrect. Or are you going to claim that Einstein didn't use scientific method?
[QUOTE=David29;35344048]Again, missing what I said. Scientific theories are not always correct at the time they are made. New discoveries can come along and comepletely tip an existing idea on its head. Einstein is renowned for his scientific genious, but made a huge blunder with his 'static universe' theory, which was eventually proven incorrect. Or are you going to claim that Einstein didn't use scientific method?[/QUOTE]
Yes, he did. And the scientific method was used to prove him wrong. The difference between Einstein and people who investigate the paranormal is that they don't use the scientific method.
[QUOTE=David29;35344048]That's an easy thing to say from an observers perspective - like how epilepsy used to be simply discarded as 'retardation' because it couldn't be fully explained.
Again, missing what I said. Scientific theories are not always correct at the time they are made. New discoveries can come along and comepletely tip an existing idea on its head. Einstein is renowned for his scientific genious, but made a huge blunder with his 'static universe' theory, which was eventually proven incorrect. Or are you going to claim that Einstein didn't use scientific method?[/QUOTE]
Einstein supported the static universe theory because to not do so would be to conflict with his personal beliefs. He hated the opposing theory.
Now what you are forgetting is that we more or less HAVE already explained ghosts to the best of our abilities thus far.
Massive strides in the past 500 years have been achieved in physics, chemistry, biology, psychology, linguistics, history, geography, etc. What the collected weight of evidence from centuries of research, debate, understanding, cataloguing and revision of such has contributed to the knowledge the human race possesses.
What we understand with this huge collection of information, is that there is a massive amount of evidence that does not support ghosts existing. People have tried to prove them and research into the matter for centuries, but have found many opposite results to what they have intended.
Governments have spent years and countless stacks of money into research in the matter. If ghosts really did exist, do you not think that they would want to utilise the knowledge gained from this?
Essentially, the case for favour of ghosts existing is incredibly weak compared to the one saying that ghosts do not exist. We have found many, many, many explanations and causes for what we perceived to be ghosts. Just because we cannot prove everything fully doesn't mean "Oh, science cannot fully disprove them, therefore they must exist!"
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;35344225]Einstein supported the static universe theory because to not do so would be to conflict with his personal beliefs. He hated the opposing theory.
Now what you are forgetting is that we more or less HAVE already explained ghosts to the best of our abilities thus far.[/QUOTE]
And Einstein explained his theory, which was proved wrong at a later date. My point is that the exact same thing could happen with ghosts.
Also, it makes no idfference if he was defending his beliefs or not - he was still wrong.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;35344225]What we understand with this huge collection of information, is that there is a massive amount of evidence that does not support ghosts existing. People have tried to prove them and research into the matter for centuries, but have found many opposite results to what they have intended.
Governments have spent years and countless stacks of money into research in the matter. If ghosts really did exist, do you not think that they would want to utilise the knowledge gained from this?[/QUOTE]
You are making the terrible assumption that science has reached its peak where everything has been discovered and thus everything can be explained. That is amazingly narrow-minded and has caused countless set-backs in the past. Your argument boils down to: "it can't exist because it douesn't agree with our current theories". My point is that it may not do at present, but future developments in science may lead to a change in our understanding in such a way that makes them plausible - like how Newton's law of gravity being superceded by Eistein's theory of relativity explains why a smaller, but denser, object than Earth would have a greater gravitational pull.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;35344225]Essentially, the case for favour of ghosts existing is incredibly weak compared to the one saying that ghosts do not exist. We have found many, many, many explanations and causes for what we perceived to be ghosts. Just because we cannot prove everything fully doesn't mean "Oh, science cannot fully disprove them, therefore they must exist!"[/QUOTE]
Where did I ever say they must exist? Do you read my posts?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;35343424]Well I divide them into two groups, the ones who talk shit (The cranks and frauds.)
The second group whom I refer to are the ones who have a mental disorder.
Sounds like she did not know how to operate a clock. It could have been switching to another hour automatically due to daylight savings.
Try to face the issue head on with a clear and rational mind. Humans naturally are much weaker and defenceless in the dark, a fact established by our poor night eyesight and lack of other senses when out at night. When humans were on the run from wild animals, any tiny sound or flicker of light in the corner of the eye made humans keep aware something could possibly be around. This self defence mechanism is still with us today.
When we started to farm, and wild animals gradually got eradicated or domesticated by us, the number of wild creatures to worry about diminished. You know that in a household it is impossible for a rabid dog to be in there. So naturally humans assumed other entities were following them. Werewolves for example were created by a scared human mind that probably mixed up a human and a wolf at some stage.
Ghosts are no exception, for oddly enough at around the same time humans began to farm for a living, they buried their dead under the floors of their houses and put the skull on a rock nearby with decoration. Given that they worshipped these as a proto-religion, it is not a far stretch to say that these spiritual entities eventually evolved into the modern idea of a ghost.
There is only one way to rid the world of "Ghosts". All you have to do is simply stop believing in them and convince others to do so as well. Once everybody stops believing in ghosts, the idea will die the death it was meant to centuries ago.[/QUOTE]
I don't know man... Some stuff just doesn't seems right, like those photos that capture people who "weren't supposed to be there", weird things happening inside a house like weird sounds and stuff...
It seems farfetched and silly, but I can't help to think theres some truth to it.
Its easier for me to believe in ghosts and paranormal phenomena like that than in people who say they can contact the dead and sense evil and anger in a house. Thats pure hokkus pokkus to me. That and blessings.
[QUOTE=David29;35344684]You are making the terrible assumption that science has reached its peak where everything has been discovered and thus everything can be explained. [/QUOTE]
No, it's more of a case that the compiled evidence at this present moment in time shows that it is highly highly improbable they do not exist, bloody hell.
[QUOTE=David29;35344684]"it can't exist because it douesn't agree with our current theories"[/QUOTE]
No you cabbage. The reason that many rational minded people out there think that ghosts do not exist is because:
[quote]IN THE PAST 500 YEARS, THE EVIDENCE FOUND FOR IN FAVOUR OF GHOSTS PALES IN COMPARISON TO THE RESEARCH DONE ON THE SUBJECT THAT HAS EXPLAINED MANY THINGS ATTRIBUTED ONCE TO GHOSTS NOW EXPLAINABLE. THE EVIDENCE COLLECTED THUS FAR IN FAVOUR OF GHOSTS NOT EXISTING GREATLY OUTWEIGHS THE EVIDENCE PROVING THEY EXIST.[/quote]
[QUOTE=dass;35344964]I don't know man... Some stuff just doesn't seems right, like those photos that capture people who "weren't supposed to be there", weird things happening inside a house like weird sounds and stuff...
It seems farfetched and silly, but I can't help to think theres some truth to it.[/QUOTE]
You simply have to find a logical explanation for it. You can only really start thinking a ghost is involved once you have eradicated every single other possibility that could have happened.
Photos who capture people not there, ranges from imperfections in the lens to bad photo developing or lighting or the such. Anything that seems out of place will be thought as by a human as creating a pattern.
[img]http://domaincurry.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/cloud.jpg[/img]
This is a example. This cloud was formed from water vapour. The shapes made are more or less random. However its been well documented for centuries that humans can pick out patterns from them. All of these views are more or less subjective and often conflict with each other on the nature of these clouds.
However we can explain much about clouds, we know how they form, why they form, what happens to them, etc. Lightning, rain and snow once were unexplainable things coming from these clouds that can now be easily explained.
Ghosts are the same. We thought that instead of a poorly insulated wall or odd sounds a ghost was present. We can now explain this.
Ghosts are what the superstitious fall back to when they cannot be arsed to work out a real explanation or as a result of wishful thinking.
What if you find something without explanation? (literally)
[QUOTE=dass;35345790]What if you find something without explanation? (literally)[/QUOTE]
Well if it cannot be explained, then that could also not be explained as a ghost either since it would be "Without explanation".
If it cannot be explained, nobody would have the faintest clue what it could be.
[QUOTE=dass;35345790]What if you find something without explanation? (literally)[/QUOTE]
if something can't be explained you don't point at the least proven theory and say that this is what it is.
thats what christians do
[QUOTE=dass;35345790]What if you find something without explanation? (literally)[/QUOTE]
That's where a lot of people differ. Rational people accept that there is no current explanation. Religious people believe God did it. Superstitious people believe the dead did it. Or aliens.
Some of you might get mad at the whole 'rational people' thing, but then I will just explain that trying to come up with an answer for something without any kind of basis for believing that answer (ghosts/gods/aliens) other than 'because' is irrational.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;35345909]Well if it cannot be explained, then that could also not be explained as a ghost either since it would be "Without explanation".
If it cannot be explained, nobody would have the faintest clue what it could be.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm. What if something without explanation were to happen in a place said to be haunted?
[editline]29th March 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Chrille;35345993]That's where a lot of people differ. Rational people accept that there is no current explanation. Religious people believe God did it. Superstitious people believe the dead did it. Or aliens.
Some of you might get mad at the whole 'rational people' thing, but then I will just explain that trying to come up with an answer for something without any kind of basis for believing that answer (ghosts/gods/aliens) other than 'because' is irrational.[/QUOTE]
I'm not one of "those". I just find some crap to be really weird.
The whole "God did it" seems like an excuse to not find an answer and to be further stuck to a backwards shackling belief.
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